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Motor Insulation Failure

09/15/2014 8:35 PM

Hello, I have a doubt regarding capacitor bank in electrical system. Do Capacitor bank in leading mode have an effect on insulation of motors which are started in DOL as well as VFD. In our plant we are having ABB VFD's ACS 800 which is used to run 690V Kirloskar make motors. Twice our motor have failed on insulation grounds. Voltage is maintained at 688-694V. Kindly suggest what can be the reason if capacitor bank are not.

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#1

Re: Motor Insulation Failure

09/15/2014 9:39 PM

Insulation failures are almost always caused by excessive heat.

If it's DOL starting, that may be the problem. You will have to decide.

Have you done any trouble shooting? Taken AMP readings at start-up?

What have you done?

I just park cars for a living, but I read somewhere..................................

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Motor Insulation Failure

09/15/2014 9:58 PM

HI, Ampere readings are normal at 110A running load condition, while its rated is 269A. Apart from that it is having a leakage current of approx. 1.5A in earthing cable. Output voltage is around 684V. At this moment no troubleshooting done on that, we have replaced the motor.

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#4
In reply to #2

Re: Motor Insulation Failure

09/15/2014 10:15 PM

Starting current is what? For how long?

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#8
In reply to #1

Re: Motor Insulation Failure

09/17/2014 2:34 AM

LOL!!!

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#3

Re: Motor Insulation Failure

09/15/2014 10:10 PM

Your doubts are well founded, especially if the capacitor bank is always in the circuit under varying load conditions. Poorly chosen capacitor sizes and/or control strategies can lead to unacceptably high transient voltage conditions during switching or anything other than full load conditions. There is also the chance for a resonance condition to occur, all of which may lead to punctured insulation in the capacitors and the motor windings.

This paper is an introduction to the problem, Google will provide many more references.

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#5

Re: Motor Insulation Failure

09/15/2014 10:35 PM

In our plant we are having ABB VFD's ACS 800 which is used to run 690V Kirloskar make motors. Twice our motor have failed on insulation grounds. Voltage is maintained at 688-694V. Kindly suggest what can be the reason if capacitor bank are not.

This sounds as though the insulation failure is on the motors that are run from the VFD, so I do not understand why you have raised the read herring (irrelevant issue) regarding DOL motors...

If so, this would have nothing to do with any PFC capacitors, although why you have them and why they run leading is an entirely different issue. Insulation damage done to motors being run from VFDs is a very well known problem, referred to as the "Reflected Wave" and/or "Standing Wave" phenomenon. There are countless documents available on the web explaining it and offering mitigation options, many referenced from within the history of this forum if you know how to search.

So did nobody take this issue into consideration when putting the VFD systems out for tender? Usually it is put to the VFD vendor to include the necessary mitigation options to prevent this, sometimes it is put onto the motor supplier but they often have no knowledge of how bad the problem will be, yet the VFD supplier will. So who was supposed to prevent this from happening on your project? Did nobody at ABB bother to mention it to you? If not, that would be EXTREMELY irresponsible in this day and age, and I know from the fact that you mentioned an ACS800 that this is not old equipment.

If it were me, and my tender offer included a clause that insisted that the motors be properly protected from insulation breakdown, I would be calling ABB for taking care of the failures. If nothing was mentioned and someone just bought the lowest cost package, then you got what you paid for. You can still mitigate it to protect the new motors, but first you need to find someone at your location who can come out and investigate it to provide the CORRECT solution. Otherwise you might be throwing good money after bad...

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Motor Insulation Failure

09/16/2014 10:39 AM

Absolutely, the O.P. needs inverter duty motors and/or true sine drives; GA.

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#7
In reply to #5

Re: Motor Insulation Failure

09/16/2014 11:33 PM

The ABB installation manuals suggest various problems and remedies, including common mode chokes, line filters, grounding practices, and motor selection.

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#10
In reply to #5

Re: Motor Insulation Failure

09/17/2014 8:12 AM

At Rockwell's literature site, there's an Allen-Bradley document where they describe the problem: excessive ringing on the sharp PWM line IGBT-switching edges, from the VFD and the long motor cables, and they show 'scope waveforms.

They show a 1264-volt ringing waveform (they say it can get as high as 2500 volts in a 575-volt system), which could be reduced to 1032 volts with a reactor, but they do better with a "terminator," placed at the motor, which clamps this to a safer 888 volts for a few microseconds only, and no ringing.

To solve the motor-winding-damage problem they suggest the use of their 1204 Motor Terminator, and the document gives details about selecting the right model, its installation and use.

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: Motor Insulation Failure

09/17/2014 11:41 AM

And those units often get stinking hot!

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#9

Re: Motor Insulation Failure

09/17/2014 2:44 AM

I'm learning a lot here ....and having a laugh too!! It really couldn't be better!!!

Its a new slant on this area for me personally. The Navy never used capacitor banks...

Thanks to all concerned.

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#11

Re: Motor Insulation Failure

09/17/2014 11:40 AM

I trust you do not have any capacitors on the output of the VFD. No PF correction capacitors are allowed at that location.

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#13

Re: Motor Insulation Failure

09/17/2014 2:12 PM

ensure the motor p.f is not leading with the capacitor bank. it should be lagging p.f, and the insulation class should be higher side if it comes to VFD, better to go for next higher KW. use separate cooling fan for cooling the motor.

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