Hydro Power

Couple of possible sites:-

http://www.renewablesfirst.co.uk/hydro-learning-centre/archimedean-screw/

http://www.powerfromthelandscape.co.uk/links/micro-hydro-installers-consultants-and-manufacturers

Another one local to me:-

http://www.powerfromthelandscape.co.uk/sites/merrydale-slaithwaite

Is there any remnant of a former water wheel? If so, overshot or undershot? What other topographic details can you describe, especially stream gradient and flow rate?

Haven't a clue if there's any remnant of a former water wheel and wouldn't know what's meant by over/undershot. Believe control rate of water in the millstream is possible, but haven't any idea how. I offered my opinion regarding potential for hydro power too late in my stay at the hotel to do any research, but even with more time, I wouldn't have known what to look for. From info received so far, seems that an Archimedes screw at an angle of 22 deg. may be the best direction to investigate, but I'll leave this sort of decision to the experts. I'd like to keep in the loop, but if necessary I'll simply pass on the info received so far and let the hotel owners investigate further...... if they wish. If they don't, I reckon they'll be losing out on a golden opportunity!!

One of the things that will need to be considered is rights.

The fish people will want a say, Bureau of Reclamation will probably want a vote, the state water rights division... blah blah blah ad nauseam. There are plenty of groups out there who love to stop such noble ventures for one reason or another.

Just because someone owns the land under the water doesn't always mean that they have any right to use the water flowing over it.

Missed the big one, at least in the states around here - the environmental department, be it whatever it is called, actually controls this sort of thing. Basically, nothing is ever to be fooled with again when it comes to land and streams. It took a Senator to get them to allow some worthless swamp land, in the middle of a residential area, where mosquitoes are definitely not desired, to be drained for use as a small industrial building. The best part is the wetlands only developed after some industrial use ceased about 40 years ago. Wet lands are sacred. Streams are sacred in this area. Just see what befalls you if you let some mud from a site you are clearing get to a stream. So, imagine what they'll say if you want to re-route a portion and use it for a commercial venture.

If his is the case with a little mud from a site, then why on earth are they allowing farc'ing of the water table below ground, polluting the water table with gas and chemicals which ends up in your water supply and rivers?

Have I missed a something or are your laws just so silly that they are incomprehensible.

You are out in left field with all the anti-fracking loonies. You obviously have absolutely no geologic training what so ever to make an asinine staement like that.The reservoir zones for gas are thousands of feet below any potable water zones. Most lie below many highly saline aquifers laid down millions of years ago. In the east there is a very large zone of what we call blackwater, well above the zones we are now fracking, that contains H2S and lots of other sulfur compounds. If the fracking reached to the aquifers of potable water, we would also be getting many reports on this nasty rotten egg smelling crap getting into the water and salt water as well - to date - hasn't been mentioned - only methane, which abounds in many geologic stratas. A good study of the geology of the area where fracking is occuring should be required before someone can shoot off his mouth about it. There are cap rock stratas above the zones now being fracked so hard no frac could ever penetrate them. I know - I spent 11 years analyzing these zones for shallow well gas drilling.

Clearly you missed the point altogether and clearly anyone outside of the marvelous USA knows nothing. Your pompous arrogance is remarkable, supercilious actually.

June this year, National Geographic reported that Los Angeles alone imports 8.9 billion litres of water each day to satisfy the demand of its people

I might seem loony, but the fact is, I have clean water in abundance, all free, and perfectly usable at any time, and as much as I like to use. A loony who never thirsts.

You obviously cannot answer the question, so I shall go and have another glass of clean fresh water. I shall assume it is San Andreas fault that you have no answer.

Spot on! There has been not one single DOCUMENTED instance where hydro Fracking has led to contamination of a water well. Even the USEPA has said so. Fracking wells, with steel casing pipe I might add, extending several thousand feet below the aquifers. Whatever water well contamination present, say methane and other compounds, was in the water before fracking wells were drilled.

The Looney Left seriously needs to watch the documentary "Fracking Nation", where the Left's narrative and agenda has been proven to be very very false.

Some peeps need to seriously do in-depth research on their own, rather to rely on the LameStream Media's and the Lefty's persistent chant......oh bother.

'Since the fracking boom started in Pennsylvania in 2008, the state has identified 243 cases of private water supply contamination "impacted by oil and gas activities." That is out of more than 20,000 wells drilled there.

Cornell University engineering professor Anthony Ingraffea, added that he's worried because "it's impossible to drill and cement a well that will never leak."

Smack on the button chaps, not one single documented case at all! I am very impressed by your numerical skills and knowledge of this vast country.

My 3 wise monkeys are needing fed and watered.

That might be possible, but were they fracking activities, or other types of near-surface leaks?

All frac'ing related, oil and gas drilling. You need to change from Google USA searches. Try UK, ZA, Germany, or any other search page besides USA Google. Try "Start Page" for a refreshing change.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/01/05/some-states-confirm-water-pollution-from-drilling/4328859/

PITTSBURGH (AP) - In at least four states that have nurtured the nation's energy boom, hundreds of complaints have been made about well-water contamination from oil or gas drilling, and pollution was confirmed in a number of them, according to a review that casts doubt on industry suggestions that such problems rarely happen.

The Associated Press requested data on drilling-related complaints in Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virginia and Texas and found major differences in how the states report such problems. Texas provided the most detail, while the other states provided only general outlines. And while the confirmed problems represent only a tiny portion of the thousands of oil and gas wells drilled each year in the U.S., the lack of detail in some state reports could help fuel public confusion and mistrust.

The AP found that Pennsylvania received 398 complaints in 2013 alleging that oil or natural gas drilling polluted or otherwise affected private water wells, compared with 499 in 2012. The Pennsylvania complaints can include allegations of short-term diminished water flow, as well as pollution from stray gas or other substances. More than 100 cases of pollution were confirmed over the past five years.

Use the link address and read the whole article.

http://www.waterwheelplace.com/water_wheel_electricity.html

How do we size(calculate) the wheel & alternator.What is the simplest way to measure head & flow in an irrigation canal?.

If the millstream is an aesthetic plus to the scenery it might loose some of the original appeal. Example, the fast moving water could result in a slow moving stream if a water wheel was placed in it for an overflow unit, likewise for an underflow wheel. Any future use of the water will reduce the available work by at least the same amount.

Also the equipment for generating and transferring the electricity might not be as aesthetically appealing as the present set up. Example- What is more aesthetic Niagara Falls or the hydroelectric plant down stream running with the same water at the same heights? I know, a stupid question for CR4! The hydroelectric plant of course!

Good Luck, Old Salt

And then you might be able to sell it on the heritage appeal.

Many small mill streams only put out maybe 10Hp, enough to turn the wheels but not much more. That would still equate to about 7kw, and that is 24/7, so the total kwhr could be interesting for a small facility.

Do we need speed governor & AVR for this kind of machines?.

I suspect the mill stream flow rate on a "old fashion" water wheel will be self limiting. (Also because water only accelerates at 32fpm/s, so the total head will limit the maximum possible velocity of the wheel). A voltage regulator may be required. Think of a car generator, it regulates voltage. What you will have is an over sized car generator - actually using it to charge a battery bank is not that bad of an idea - but I would prefer to just make the "meter" run backwards (or both) (meters run backwards automatically, or they used to before smart meters- the linemen don't like it unless it automatically disconnects on line loss, and is certified by a P Eng.).

Another idea - there are available permanent magnet AC machines. With the correct gearing you would have appropriate voltage. Couple that to an appropriate inverter would give you fixed frequency ac. I am sure the PV group has that approach nailed down.

I agree it could be a worthwhile amount of electricity. Would recommend talking with potential equipment suppliers as they know their products and there are several types. I imagine this as an "off the shelf" item. We worked with such a supplier in 2010 for our purchase of a few units. BE AWARE THAT THERE ARE CONSIDERABLE ENERGY LOSSES ON ACTUAL UNITS IN THE FIELD.

Silly old bear, you answered your own question quite correctly I might add.

That's actually a good point at the end- and showing how good, the answer is to be found several miles upstream from the falls where they have gates to divert the water according to water levels, varying electricity demands, and how many busloads of tourists just showed up.

About 30 years ago I was attending a company training class in Niagara Falls, Canada, during the winter. Weather became foul, snow, so class was cut short one day. A car load of engineers, including myself, took a tourist type ride to see the local sights. We stopped at a small building marked something like "Power company hydroelectric entrance". I went to the in-house telephone and asked if we could look around their plant. Much to our dismay they invited us in. Took the elevator down and we were all astounded with what we saw. Numerous large turbines in various stages of operation and repair amongst other things.

In the control room they let us operate some of the controls. Some of the things we did were change, only a small amount, the frequency of the grids for the whole eastern half of the USA. They put it back in place! Change the level of the falls. Change the generated output of the plant. Put a turbine on line and take another one off line. There were several other unusual things they showed us how to do and let us do them. We were like kids in a toy shop!

Without doubt, that was probably the most interesting site visit I ever had in my career. The people there were extremely courteous, interesting and interested in our operations. I certainly would love to do it again!

Good Luck, Old Salt

Please provide more detailed information.

First, various legal details should be considered as those will determine which flow you can use and when (if any). From there you'll know the flow and head. If flow/head vary, measuring data is gathered over at lest one year to optimize the flow and head specifications. Of course the type of equipment will also depend on local rules about construction.

But basically the most important information are the flow and head which determine the coordinates of top of the turbine efficiency hill. From there it's possible to narrow the choices.

Very small turbines can come off-the-shelf but due to a lack of efficiency there quickly comes a limit where a custom-designed turbine is finally the better investment. There are specialized turbine manufacturing companies and hydraulic labs which have turbine designs which they can adapt for each specific application.

In some cases it's interesting to use variable speed turbines, though this technology is still uncommon and mostly limited to small powers (up to a couple of MW though higher powers are possible but very rare).

For small variable speed grid-connected turbines a simple solution is to use a regenerative VSD and an asynchronous generator (a regular asynchronous motor, though slightly less efficient, can also be used, a good solution for very small turbines if the speed range is appropriate). Some regenerative VSD can also be used with permanent magnet generators and synchronous generators.

Asynchronous generators not connected to the grid are a mess and should be avoided (forget the condensator, resistor and other crapboxes).

Fixed-speed asynchronous generators don't need any grid synchronization but are uncommon for hydropower excepted very small machines.

Speed governor and excitation depend on the type of machine. Usually there's a turbine control system (typically COTS PLC-based or a specialized controller) and an excitation control system (nowadays mostly digital). Simply said, when islanding the governor regulates for frequency and the excitation control for voltage and when connected to the grid the governor regulates for active power and the excitation control for cos phi (or reactive power).

The type of excitation depends on the generator. The type of turbine regulation depends on the turbine. Double regulated turbines (e.g. Kaplan) are more complex to regulate than single-regulated turbines (Pelton, Francis,...).

For very basic applications it's possibe to use simple components from the genset domain (dedicated modules). Larger systems typically rely on digital controls.

Note that anti-islanding protection is often not done correctly with small generators (up to 1 MW or so), especially older systems.

Plimo pretty much nailed it from an electrical generation point of view.

Here's a good website to start your research: http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/micro-hydro-power-pros-and-cons/

Depending on your locale, you face considerable Environmental regulations, review, and permitting process. You are going to face Federal, State and local entities during the review.

You will need to install stream gages upstream and downstream of the turbine (or other device) to measure year round stream flow as well as water surface depths. Not only will this data be needed to design the hydro plant mechanics, it will be needed to be presented in the engineering report needed for environmental review.

Good luck!

I just read an article on the resurgence and application of many retired or non-operational hydro devices. I believe it was in "Utility" or "Construction" Dive E-News Letters- The article was about repurposing these devices for storage of electricity for emergency use as well as what you are intending -Low Kw, Amp out put application. I am in the Energy management field and am familiar with all the new storage devices and see them in use at many of the Mega-stores as pilot projects. I will research my saved files and post the information. The article also was discussing the use of these hydro devices specifically out of North America in under developed countries as they have multitudes of these unused Hydro -devices which would help out- lying ,hard to reach areas with at least minimal electricity needs.

Taking out all the doom and gloom and focusing on the positive for a moment, hydro is an excellent way to produce power and it can be done without interruption of any water flows, and reduced flow rates of the river. Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark are full of small hydro systems that operate small villages and farms. Sweden in particular has small hydro plants on virtually every river in villages or towns, and they all operate with efficiency.

A simple sluice with the impeller in the flow will be ample to turn the small generator required to produce electric. No trouble for fish, wildlife, kids falling in, etc.

Search ABB Sweden or Voith,to start with, there is a lot of info available.

It depend if you have an existing sluice to utilise or if you need to build a new sluice.

Despite what some others have assumed (ass-u-me) and perhaps myself in my other contribution, water is not an assured endless source for generating electricity. The millstream - now unused - provides an endless supply of fast-moving water, which makes me wonder if hydro power could be possible for either the entire supply, or lighting only? Water is there during certain conditions such as rain, melting snow, artesian wells, underground springs, etc. For short periods of time much of this can be stored to lengthen the time it is available. It certainly is not endless and could cause numerous problems if the supply stops.

The temporary arid conditions in many countries between rains are perfect examples. What about the "rainy seasons" in many countries? The Mississippi River in the USA is a perfect example. For the past several years navigation has been prohibited in some areas due to insufficient water to accommodate the draft of many barges and tow (push) boats.

A pump-storage system could be considered but it also is dependent upon an adequate supply of water. It takes more electricity to pump water up than it can generate by the flow down. Where would this be located? Is there ample room for such a reservoir? This would increase the cost exponentially! Likewise if there is no water to turn the water wheel there won't be any water to pump up to the reservoir?

What would supply emergency lighting during system malfunctions or no available water? Candles, flashlights, kerosene lanterns, LED head strap lights, batteries for standby lighting systems, etc.? It would be feasible to install a transfer switch to connect to the grid during periods of no output from the system but that is also a large investment. A standby generator could be used but they are noisy, require periodic PM, refueling is messy and not very environmentally friendly. Is the cost of such a system worth the large investment?

Even the hydroelectric plants on the Niagara River don't have a sufficient supply of water during occasional times of drought!

On such a small scale it is not economical to try to do anything other than put park benches near it and let the people look at the water wheel go round and round and round and round and round............

Best source on information would be the manufacturer or installer of such systems but keep a cautious eye open to what they say.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Very good comments. One of my major points was that water which is of such a volume to operate a conventional water wheel or high efficiency one would not be enough to generate the power required to sustain the system. Quick calculation used for a total system was 1 hp (746 watts) per person within the building and surrounding areas. Maybe a high figure but also could be low when all uses are considered (parking area lights, refrigerators, utility motors, kitchen appliances, common area lighting, etc) With the low estimate of 1 hp. per person you would need, not considering inefficiencies, at least a 26 hp , 20kw, source. Although I have never put a dynamotor on a water wheel I have never seen one of the historical types that could provide anywhere near that energy. There are several in my area and none of them could ever provide that energy even if it was geared up to a higher rotational speed to a alternator or generator. Higher power usage per person would require even more supply power. in order not to need peak power periods from the grid the system would have to be built to even greater capacity.

Again though, all of this would require some sort of back-up power whether it be from an independent source or the grid. The cost of this could very easily exceed the costs of the main power generation system.

Another point is that water is not a guaranteed source of power. No water--no power. Examples of this are the cited Mississippi River. It is the biggest river in the country but didn't have enough water to navigate. Ditto for many lakes that were left high and dry from droughts. This includes many low head hydroelectric plants on the Ohio and other substantial rivers. A minimum amount of water has to feed the transit locks and maintain a minimum flow of the river. What is the first thing to lose water? The power plants.

My home state has a small river with a hydropower system on it, about 10kw, for private use and it is a very substantial modern operation. Having fished on the downstream side of it I have never seen it run at the full 10kw capacity, even during the April rainy season.

For the lighting only system I used the approximation of 400 watts/person based on room and common area lighting. Still a very expensive venture. Another aspect of a separate lighting system is a duplicate electrical distribution must be installed and maintained. Duplicate wiring, panels, switches, etc. must be installed.

Having designed and worked on separate standby electrical systems for critical equipment in the chemical industry, any type of duplicate source of power is expensive. So much so that it sometimes exceeds the cost of two independent systems. Standby power sources are also expensive.

If the return on investment was much greater I would agree. At this time it isn't. If you were a guest at a hotel would you tolerate no lighting or power because of a low water flow condition? I might but the lady wouldn't! Roughing it to her is sleeping on the den sofa.

Thank you for your insight and very clear information!

Good Luck, Old Salt

could you give names of manufacturers of tiny hydro turbine & generator(about 60 or 100 or 250W)to be mounted in 4inch rainwater down pipes in homes/offices.

Without more detailed information it's impossible to give specific advice.

old salt mentioned a couple of important and very valid points. For a commercially run business unreliable electrical power is not an option and indeed in most cases I know small hydro is anyway only a "nice to have" additional source of power but not the only one (note that the word "small" is not that clearly defined, for some everything below 10 MW is small while others consider a 100 kVA generator as large, sometimes the word "micro" is used too).

If there's no grid connection at, all backup power will likely have to be some diesel genset. Solar is easy to install but expensive and requires on-site storage capacity (i.e. batteries) and the lifetime of the equipment is reduced compared to hydroelectric options.

To get a rough idea of the available hydraulic power one can simply try to estimate the useable flowrate as well as the head (water level difference). Nothing else is required for a preliminary estimation of the available power. Of course the overall efficiency shouldn't be chosen too optimistically, especially for small hydro where efficiencies are lower than for large turbines and generators.

BTW Drinkwater turbines are gaining popularity too but tend to be expensive as usually all parts in contact with the water are made of stainless steel (larger ones can exceed 1 MW though most are much smaller). Wastewater can be interesting too but requires some pretreatment. Treated wastewater is not problematic.

Google "Pelton Water Wheel". It is a very efficient way to power a generator.
water W

As reply to an earlier question:

Open channel water flow is not that easy to measure unless the section of the channel is known and that the flow is not too much disturbed in the zone where its speed is measured.

Flow speed in open channel can be easily measured for example with an ultrasonic doppler sensor mounted at the end of a stick (make sure to orient it correctly), speed is measured at different places of the channel to get an idea of the distribution of the speed (close to the walls vs. in the middle). Works also for sewage and wastewater flow measurements.

There are also magneto-inductive (MID) flow speed sensors but due to the electrodes they're more sensitive to contaminations than ultrasonic doppler sensors (but MID works very well e.g. as pipe-mounted drinkwater flowmeters).

If the geometry can be measured or at least reasonably estimated the flow speed is computed by multiplying the flow speed by the cross area of the channel up to the water level in the channel (simply put). Important is that the flow is relatively steady (i.e. the flow speed and level in the channel don't change too much while measuring). For permanent installations typically an ultrasonic level measurement is installed in addition to the flow speed sensor and the flow is computed by the flowmeter electronics.

Here we only talked about flow measurements in an open unrestricted channel without any modification of the channel or temporary installation of accessories.

Without equipment it's still possible to estimate the flow using a stop watch and measuring the channel dimensions and water level.

A regretted President did not measure the flow during Summer. :)

If the owner really must have a local hydroelectric power system there is a least expensive method. Gear/v-belt/etc. a small automobile alternator to the water wheel shaft. Put the rest of the automobile stuff on to regulate the output. Have this feed an appropriate sized inverter. Feed this up to the lobby and power those lights or some of those lights with the self generated power. Wire in small LED signs directly to the alternator, with appropriate circuitry, that say "Lobby power generated by our own waterwheel system". Also use a transfer switch to the grid with appropriate voltage reduction and rectification for the lights for stand-by.

If the wheel fails, low water flow or any other problem occurs and the system shuts down the in-house power fails and the lights switch over to the grid and the signs go out. Enough water---->lights lit by local power and signs are on. Low water or trouble----->lights stay on and the signs go off.

If you really want to fascinate them, don't tell them how it is done and they will genuflect you whenever you visit. PROBLEM SOLVED!

Good Luck, Old Salt

Another good point. Thanks for your reply.

The automotive alternator solution is fine, the only issue in some cases is to reach a sufficient speed using a belt drive.

There is at least one manufacturer whose name I've forgotten who has a kit with a "heavy-duty" (means probably originally for trucks) 24 V "alternator" (automotive language as indeed after the integrated rectifier the output is obviously DC) and a battery management system and 230 V 50 Hz (or 120 V 60 Hz) static inverter. That European company also manufactures inverters for ambulances and other emergency vehicles.

For very low powers either an "all DC" solution (12 or 24 V) or a mixed solution with DC generator, battery storage and static inverter for 230 V AC or 120 V AC can be an option. Typically it's good for some low power devices like lighting, radio/TV, a few computers but usually neither heating nor electric cooking or so (though it has been done but using a 10 kW inverter for washing machine and electric cooking is sort of overkill). Also there are solutions combining small hydro with photovoltaic.

For any larger powers storage batteries and inverters will quickly become very expensive and therefore a diesel genset is often the better choice (but good small gensets for continuous service are expensive too, the cheap crappy hobby gensets made in China won't survive long).

It's an older document, and shows it in places, but the European SMall Hydro Association's "Guide on How to Develop a Small Hydropower Plant" is a great primer... and it's free.

Executive Summary ii

Chapter 1. Introduction 1

Chapter 2. Fundamental of Hydraulic Engineering 12

Chapter 3. Evaluating Stream Flow 42

Chapter 4. Site Evaluation Methodologies 71

Chapter 5. Hydraulic Structures 91

Chapter 6. Electromechanical Equipment 152

Chapter 7. Environmental impact and its mitigation 199

Chapter 8. Economic analysis 236

Chapter 9. Administrative procedures 254

Glossary 290

http://www.esha.be/fileadmin/esha_files/documents/publications/GUIDES/GUIDE_SHP/GUIDE_SHP_EN.pdf

Swiss Federal Office of Energy SFOE, Small Hydropower Programme:

http://www.bfe.admin.ch/kleinwasserkraft/index.html?lang=en

Follow the PACER and Diane links, there are a couple of good PDF publications but they're mostly available only in German and, partially also in French. But as there are also lots of formulas, diagrams, pictures, etc. it can still be interesting even for those only speaking English.

Of course many documents don't age well ,especially when it comes to electronics, digital controls or so but most of the basics are still valid and the mechanical details don't have changed much.

Interestingly, today some large new turbines are highly optimized using complex flow simulation tools (CFD) while others are based on designs which are maybe 30+ years old.