Previous in Forum: Italian Geologists' Sentences Overturned   Next in Forum: Reliability
Close
Close
Close
49 comments
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: England & Ireland
Posts: 1063
Good Answers: 60

The Folly of War

11/11/2014 10:47 AM

This has nothing to do with engineering, but please indulge me. I feel compelled to show these pictures of poppies at The Tower of London, each one representing the life of 888,246 British & Commonwealth lives lost in "The Great War" of 1914-18, which started 100 years ago today. The last poppy was placed today. These stunning picture represent the blood pouring from a window into the moat. Scarcely a family in Britain was left unaffected and young women had a hard time finding a suitable husband when it was all over - they were all gone.

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Commissariat de Police, Nouvions, occupied France, 1942.
Posts: 2599
Good Answers: 76
#1

Re: The Folly of War

11/11/2014 11:01 AM

Ahem, it actually ended 96 years ago today.

It's a stunning display.

__________________
Good moaning!
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: England & Ireland
Posts: 1063
Good Answers: 60
#2
In reply to #1

Re: The Folly of War

11/11/2014 11:06 AM

Quite correct Crabtree, started 100 years ago this year ended 96 years ago today. Will inform Murdoch of your keen powers of observation.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16498
Good Answers: 661
#3

Re: The Folly of War

11/11/2014 11:09 AM

It's a spectacular piece of installation art anyway, but is made more poignant by the motivation behind it.

Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
3
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15109
Good Answers: 936
#4

Re: The Folly of War

11/11/2014 11:37 AM

On a related note, this December will be the century anniversary of one of humanities paradoxical triumphs in the middle of great tragedy. John McCutcheon wrote and performs a beautiful song about this beautiful, bizarre event.

I hope that everyone, regardless of their faith, will think about this event this Christmas.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
3
Guru
Fans of Old Computers - ZX-81 - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: 18N 65W o
Posts: 952
Good Answers: 27
#9
In reply to #4

Re: The Folly of War

11/11/2014 1:48 PM

Thank you and to all the Veterans who made it possible for the freedom we hold so dear.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
3
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - Don't Know What Made The Old Title Attractive... Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - 60 Year Member

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Yellowstone Valley, in Big Sky Country
Posts: 6954
Good Answers: 282
#5

Re: The Folly of War

11/11/2014 11:48 AM

"War is young men dying and old men talking."

The display is beautiful, stunning... disturbing, heartwrenching.

We, the peoples of the world, have forgotten the lessons learned from The Great War, and the War That Came After That, and every armed conflict that came before or since.

__________________
When you come to a fork in the road, take it. (Yogiism)
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Posts: 4320
Good Answers: 128
#17
In reply to #5

Re: The Folly of War

11/12/2014 6:46 AM

"If any should ask you why we died, tell them - Because our fathers lied" Rudyard Kipling

There was a suggestion that after the ceremony the poppies should have been crushed by a tank. That would have been symbolic, shame it didn't happen.

__________________
Give masochists a fair crack of the whip
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Commissariat de Police, Nouvions, occupied France, 1942.
Posts: 2599
Good Answers: 76
#18
In reply to #17

Re: The Folly of War

11/12/2014 7:17 AM

You jest. They are on sale for fundraising purposes in support of various charities.

__________________
Good moaning!
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Posts: 4320
Good Answers: 128
#19
In reply to #18

Re: The Folly of War

11/12/2014 7:59 AM

There could be some left over to sell

__________________
Give masochists a fair crack of the whip
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42291
Good Answers: 1662
#6

Re: The Folly of War

11/11/2014 11:53 AM

This is also a good time to reflect on the personal sacrifices made by so many over the years, serving whatever Masters fate bestowed upon them.

"Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred."

The Charge of the Light Brigade - EServer Poetry Collection

Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 20964
Good Answers: 780
#7
In reply to #6

Re: The Folly of War

11/11/2014 12:08 PM

Alfred Lord Tennyson.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
6
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: England & Ireland
Posts: 1063
Good Answers: 60
#8

Re: The Folly of War

11/11/2014 12:35 PM

"All wars are planned by older men
In council rooms apart,
Who call for greater armament
And map the battle chart.
But out along the shattered field
Where golden dreams turn gray,
How very young the faces were
Where all the dead men lay.
Portly and solemn in their pride,
The elders cast their vote
For this or that, or something else,
That sounds the martial note.
But where their sightless eyes stare out
Beyond life's vanished toys,
I've noticed nearly all the dead
Were hardly more than boys."

Grantland Rice

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 6)
3
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#10

Re: The Folly of War

11/11/2014 7:22 PM

Not folly. Bad people need to be beaten straight to hell.
If not for those brave souls, how many more poppies would there be?

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
3
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Glen Mills, PA.
Posts: 2385
Good Answers: 114
#20
In reply to #10

Re: The Folly of War

11/12/2014 9:59 AM

The problem is that the enemy were not bad people, they had been told by their leaders that we were bad people, so on both side good people were trying to kill "bad people".

I have no problem lauding the bravery of the soldiers, they were doing their duty as they saw it, it does not lessen that bravery that the war was ordered for other reasons.

I wear the poppy because the money goes to help the injured servicemen. I have misgivings, Earl Haig was involved in it, along with other retired socio and psychopaths generals.

Thomas Carlyle wrote, in about 1834, in Sartor Resartus:

"What, speaking in quite unofficial language, is the net purport and upshot of war? To my own knowledge, for example, there dwell and toil, in the British village of Dumdrudge, usually some five hundred souls. From these, by certain `Natural Enemies` of the French, there are successively selected, during the French war, say thirty able-bodied men; Dumdrudge, at her own expense, has suckled and nursed them: she has, not without difficulty and sorrow, fed them up to manhood, and even trained them to crafts, so that one can weave, another build, another hammer, and the weakest can stand under thirty stone avoirdupois. Nevertheless, amid much weeping and swearing, they are selected; all dressed in red; and shipped away, at the public charges, some two thousand miles, or say only to the south of Spain; and fed there till wanted. And now to that same spot, in the south of Spain, are thirty similar French artisans, from a French Dumdrudge, in like manner wending: till at length, after infinite effort, the two parties come into actual juxtaposition; and Thirty stands fronting Thirty, each with a gun in his hand. Straightaway the word `Fire!` is given; and they blow the souls out of one another; and in place of sixty brisk useful craftsmen, the world has sixty dead carcasses, which it must bury, and anew shed tears for. Had these men any quarrel? Busy as the Devil is, not the smallest! They lived far enough apart; were the entirest strangers; nay, in so wide a Universe, there was even, unconsciously, by Commerce, some mutual helpfulness between them. How then? Simpleton! their Governors had fallen out; and instead of shooting one another, had the cunning to make these poor blockheads shoot.-Alas, so is it in Deutschland, and hitherto in all other lands; still as of old, `what devilry soever Kings do, the Greeks must pay the piper!`-In that fiction of the English Smollett, it is true, the final Cessation of War is perhaps prophetically shadowed forth; where the two Natural Enemies, in person, take each a Tobacco-pipe, filled with Brimstone; light the same, and smoke in one another's faces, till the weaker gives in: but from such predicted Peace-Era, what blood-filled trenches, and contentious centuries, may still divide us!"

__________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
2
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#23
In reply to #20

Re: The Folly of War

11/12/2014 1:44 PM

The problem is that the enemy were not bad people, they had been told by their leaders that we were bad people, so on both side good people were trying to kill "bad people".

That's not always accurate though.

In WWII, do you think individual German soldiers felt like they were doing the right thing as they were gassing and burning innocent men, women and children?

As far as being told by their leaders... the leaders made it easy to hate Jews. Jews were successful in business, science, music, art, etc., and many had saved money and were living comfortable lives. All the leadership had to do was convince the people that the Jews didn't earn their money honestly, and the rest fell into place.

Sound familiar?

The "leadership" is capable of carrying us to some horrible circumstances, and getting us to commit acts that we otherwise wouldn't. Pure evil stuff.
It's imperative that we all hold our leadership accountable, and never let them lead us into evil.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15109
Good Answers: 936
#24
In reply to #23

Re: The Folly of War

11/12/2014 9:42 PM

So what if it is not always accurate but only accurate for 95% of the time.

IMHO a corollary of Godwin's law applies here:

There are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself)[3] than others.[1] For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.[8]

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: England & Ireland
Posts: 1063
Good Answers: 60
#25
In reply to #24

Re: The Folly of War

11/13/2014 5:20 AM

I followed your link - thanks, interesting. I've never heard of Godwin's Law, but I've certainly seen/read it in action, without realizing that it is a known phenomena. Now I can answer back to those who use it.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#26
In reply to #24

Re: The Folly of War

11/13/2014 5:49 AM

I guess I should have said Mao instead of Nazi's...or the Japanese slaughter of millions of Chinese. Feel better?

You missed the larger point, which is the wave of moral relativism that holds that there is no right or wrong, that all war is folly, and that it only stems from philosophical differences. We are seeing this today, and it's garbage.

It puts Iran, Israel, Hitler and Churchill all on equal moral footing, and not only is it a totally convoluted worldview...it's dangerous.

I don't care about Godwin's law. If you want, we can talk about the horrible waste of life, limb and treasure now that we have declared our own defeat in Iraq and handed the country over to ISIS. Now we're starting over.

The folly of surrender. The price of leading from behind.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/president-obama-plans-send-1500-troops-iraq/story?id=26765896

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Kansas, USA
Posts: 748
Good Answers: 64
#21
In reply to #10

Re: The Folly of War

11/12/2014 10:04 AM

GA kramarat: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

There is and always will be a struggle between good and evil and that is where men and women will stand on principle. A man of integrity will make a stand when he sees the need of a defenseless person.

The reason there is a need for people to violently respond to evil, i.e. war, is that when there is dictatorship, despotism or a religion based upon hate like militant Islam, there isn't the possibility for rational, logical discourse for peace. You can't negotiate with someone who will use their own people as human shields or use innocents in the carrying out of their ideological warfare. You find them and kill them before they harm other innocents.

__________________
One of the greatest discoveries a man makes, one of his great surprises, is to find he can do what he was afraid he couldn't do. Ford, Henry
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 20964
Good Answers: 780
#27
In reply to #10

Re: The Folly of War

11/13/2014 5:58 AM

It depends which war. WW II needed to be fought; some others are not so clear.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#28
In reply to #27

Re: The Folly of War

11/13/2014 6:18 AM

That's correct. But there are plenty of instances where the aggressor is clear, and must be stopped. I think the word "folly" is using too broad a brush. There's always going to be armed conflict, and while it's not always true, many times there are bad guys hurting people, and good guys trying to stop them. They are not moral equivalents.

I think ISIS is a modern example of "bad guys". They are cutting people's heads off and mounting them on sticks, performing crucifixions, etc.

I looked at the tulips in the OP as a way to honor the fallen, but maybe I was wrong and they are meant to point out how stupid war is...regardless of which side you fight for.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 20964
Good Answers: 780
#29
In reply to #28

Re: The Folly of War

11/13/2014 6:37 AM

Eliminating ISIS sounds like a perfect project for the taxpayers. Or does it?

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#34
In reply to #29

Re: The Folly of War

11/13/2014 1:11 PM

No. It doesn't. They wouldn't be there if we maintained a presence. Now it appears we are starting from scratch...or something. There is no plan, so it's anybody's guess.

Maybe we should wait until they get to Europe to stop them...or maybe the US should just stay out of it.

If we leave them alone they will stop.

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/110514-725124-sweden-cedes-control-of-muslim-areas.htm

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15109
Good Answers: 936
#31
In reply to #28

Re: The Folly of War

11/13/2014 7:51 AM

Tulip? It appears that nothing will get past your preconceived ideas.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 20964
Good Answers: 780
#32
In reply to #31

Re: The Folly of War

11/13/2014 7:53 AM

Maybe it's an opium tulip....

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#33
In reply to #31

Re: The Folly of War

11/13/2014 1:07 PM

Oops! Poppies.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1380
Good Answers: 31
#11

Re: The Folly of War

11/11/2014 10:23 PM

War has always served the same mammon power that cloaks a glaring reality; that victory is quite subjective when viewed in historical context. That the power it serves is but for a small moment in time; while the destruction and hatred it generates lives on.

War will always be an easier route for those who have only profit to gain. In the comfort and ease of a boardroom mammon power spends the blood of someone else's child; during the destruction of someone else's land.

So where is the memorial and tribute to the untold millions of innocent men, women, and children who far outnumbered the soldier and were powerless to defend themselves? Was their sacrifice nothing because it did not serve the purpose of conquest and power?

Perhaps one day the poor masses might stand and say; I will make your war no more.

Let it never be that those we honor become the fools doing the bidding of those unwilling to do their own. Let it never be that we should confuse the attributes of ruthlessness, deceit, and ambush with duty, honor, and glory. Let it never be that we immortalize the service and sacrifice of soldiers in order to entice fodder to the fields of conquest.

Perhaps one day we will pay tribute to the fleeting and few years of peace. Perhaps one day the same level of honor shall be heaped upon those who willingly ventured into the cruelty of starvation and sickness in order to save as it is upon those who in the true reality and moment of conflict suffered and sacrificed not for ideology, flag or country; but for the man who suffered beside him.

Perhaps in the end the world will exact a cruel justice upon those who truly deserve it. If that be the case; then the manna shall go to those who gave, and the thorns to those who took.

To the victors go history; written in the spin of half truth and folly; and wrapped in the treasure and blood of youth.

__________________
"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." -- Michelangelo
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Philippines
Posts: 105
Good Answers: 7
#12
In reply to #11

Re: The Folly of War

11/11/2014 11:44 PM

Yes Gavilan, I agree. And whilst I have paraded since not long after WW2, proud to wear my poppy, I now have a jaded view of the jingoism that effectively sponsors it.

Here's an article written by one more qualified than I am and who will not be wearing a poppy in the future:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/poppy-last-time-remembrance-harry-leslie-smith?CMP=ema_1364

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
2
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: England & Ireland
Posts: 1063
Good Answers: 60
#15
In reply to #12

Re: The Folly of War

11/12/2014 4:33 AM

I read the Guardian article from your link. Very though provoking and hundreds of interesting responses, some for, some against Harry Smiths thinking. What is one to think? Personally I choose to commemorate the dead, not because they represented our countries in a futile war, but because they were denied the opportunity to live out their lives by politicians and madmen.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Philippines
Posts: 105
Good Answers: 7
#16
In reply to #15

Re: The Folly of War

11/12/2014 5:25 AM

Your last sentence hits the nail on the head, energyconversion.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 1630
Good Answers: 19
#13

Re: The Folly of War

11/12/2014 1:00 AM

Of the Great War, the book, World War I, says:

"in its scope, its violence, and above all, in its totality, it established a precedent. World War I ushered in the century of Total War, of -in the first full sense of the term-global war.

""Never before 1914-1918 had a war absorbed so much of the total resources of so many combatants and covered so larger part of the earth. Never had so many nations been involved. Never had the slaughter been so comprehensive and indiscriminate""...........World War I by H. W. Baldwin 1962, pp. 1,2

To me this seems appropriate, under the heading of "The Folly of War," and of course, unfortunate as it may be, it still persists down to this very day

__________________
TO BE. or NOT TO BE. That is the question!! The Bard
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Glasgow, Free Republic of Scotland
Posts: 359
Good Answers: 30
#14

Re: The Folly of War

11/12/2014 3:41 AM

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=ztmNGmuUWfH0.k5FfbOPspjLI

Is an interesting map that reflects the true loss in WW1. It was made by the Quakers and using the same poppy density shows deaths of all sides for all reasons during the conflict.

I was at the Tower last night (night of Armistice Day) and it is an utterly moving memorial. There were still large crowds even in the drizzle at 10.30pm

__________________
Free advice guaranteed or your money back
Register to Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Kansas, USA
Posts: 748
Good Answers: 64
#22

Re: The Folly of War

11/12/2014 10:28 AM

As the saying goes, "war is hell". As Gen. Robert E. Lee said, "it is good that war is so terrible or we would grow too fond of it".

There is nothing pretty about war. There is carnage. There is loss of life, innocents, those who stand for the cause of freedom and the enemy. There is a legacy of those who die that is taken away. There is human impact much greater than the dead on the field of battle. There is confusion as to why the fight is being waged, i.e. motives of those in power, etc.

There is also the benefit of a conflict won by good over evil. There is evil in the world and we need to recognize that and stand up to defeat it. There are generations of people who can now enjoy freedom because tyranny was defeated. There are economies that thrive because free people produce enough for themselves and to the benefit of others.

The old statement that says, "freedom isn't free" is true. That applies to anything in life, whether it be spiritual freedom, financial freedom or political freedom.

__________________
One of the greatest discoveries a man makes, one of his great surprises, is to find he can do what he was afraid he couldn't do. Ford, Henry
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Technical Fields - Project Managers & Project Engineers - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Texas.Baytown
Posts: 697
Good Answers: 26
#30

Re: The Folly of War

11/13/2014 7:25 AM

There will always be war, otherwise what is the justification of the Military/Industrial existence. We will always have an enemy, real or imaginary.

__________________
If you want to know how well a broom works you do not ask the guy selling the broom or the guy who designed the broom, you ask the guy using the broom.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1380
Good Answers: 31
#35

Re: The Folly of War

11/14/2014 8:21 PM

There has never been an enduring military victory without established moral authority.

__________________
"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." -- Michelangelo
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#36
In reply to #35

Re: The Folly of War

11/14/2014 8:38 PM

...which requires a clear understanding of the inherent difference between right and wrong, good and evil.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1380
Good Answers: 31
#37
In reply to #36

Re: The Folly of War

11/14/2014 9:07 PM

You make some excellent points Kramarat.

Your earlier reference to ISIL is a perfect example of the blowback that can occur as a result of failing to establish accepted moral authority.

Was the destruction of the Libyan and Syrian states and the ensuing chaos really about the overthrow of despots? No, it was, is, and always will be about the pursuit of mammon power.

We have all of heard about the "Law of Unintended Consequences."

How about the First Law of Chaos? " In the sh*t Hole of chaos the worst turds always rise to the top."

Destabilization comes with a price. In the case of Libya, Syria, and Iraq its ISIL. In the case of Ukraine its 8 more Russian Reactors for Iran, the single largest redirection of energy flows in human history, and reigniting the cold war. (See the China - Russia pipeline deals.)

Westinghouse got its reactor fuel market in the Ukraine, the competing pipelines from Saudi Arabian Peninsula and Iran are on the rocks - temporarily - but the price paid may end up being a bit higher than anticipated for the actors.

Your belief that ideology trumps corporate interests is admirable - but it is far outside geopolitical reality. It matters not whether it be Westinghouse or Rosatom, SOCAR or Gazprom, The European Central Bank or The Bank of Russia; these are the type interests that drive geopolitics; the madmen who thrive in resulting chaos are simply "collateral damage" in the pursuit of those interests.

__________________
"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." -- Michelangelo
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#38
In reply to #37

Re: The Folly of War

11/15/2014 5:16 AM

Watching what's happened, as quickly as it's happened, has shifted my libertarian thinking on a US "hands off" policy. There are certainly instances where we should be minding our own business, but Obama has now proven that bad people don't stop doing bad things because America decides not to participate.

It's amazing how quickly things are changing and vacuums are being filled.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 1630
Good Answers: 19
#39

Re: The Folly of War

11/15/2014 7:37 AM

I remember it being said, although I cannot remember by whom and I cannot remember the exact way it was expressed, but, the meat of it was this:

"In both World Wars the pulpit was used to encourage the faithful of their flocks to take up arms and fight for their countries"

It seems so odd that religious leaders on one side pray to their god for victory against this terrible, evil and wicked enemy of theirs, saying god is on our side............when on the opposing side you have the religious leaders of the same faith praying to the SAME god for victory for their side, also saying god is on our side.

Organised religion has a lot to answer for with respect to all the blood that has been shed, particularly in these so called (by the clergy) "righteous' wars

__________________
TO BE. or NOT TO BE. That is the question!! The Bard
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#40
In reply to #39

Re: The Folly of War

11/15/2014 8:12 AM

No doubt that religion has been used for some twisted purposes, but in general, I think that dictators tend to see religion as a threat...unless they are the center of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

It's always scary when people start to worship other people.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 1630
Good Answers: 19
#41
In reply to #40

Re: The Folly of War

11/15/2014 9:38 AM

This article related a point concerning the banning of the occult..........an interesting point is that Rudolf Hess, Joseph Goebbels and Heinrich Himmler, along with hitler consulted occult mediums, one in particular, who entered the ranks of the Nazi party elite, was Karl Ernst Krafft..........even Churchill hired the services of an astrologer for a few months, because British intelligence knew of Krafft and his role with the Nazi High Command.

__________________
TO BE. or NOT TO BE. That is the question!! The Bard
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#42
In reply to #41

Re: The Folly of War

11/15/2014 11:36 AM

Hitler was big into the occult.

I remember thinking how odd it was that Reagan consulted an astrologer. It flew in the face of his otherwise common sense attitude. Now that I think back on it, I remember thinking WTF?!?!?

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/US-obit-Reagan-astrologer/2014/10/25/id/603046/

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: England & Ireland
Posts: 1063
Good Answers: 60
#43
In reply to #42

Re: The Folly of War

11/15/2014 1:03 PM

That is frightening and confirms my long-held thoughts - we need scientists/engineers in the government! People with a solid foundation, logical thought process. The only one that I can think that rose to the top in politics is/was Margaret Thatcher, who had a degree in chemistry from Oxford. Her specialist subject - X-ray Crystallography. More like that please!

"She was reportedly more proud of becoming the first Prime Minister with a science degree than the first female Prime Minister."

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15109
Good Answers: 936
#44
In reply to #43

Re: The Folly of War

11/15/2014 1:27 PM

Just to play devil's advocate for a few minutes. (I never thought I'd ever say that about Reagan.) A political leader is leading a populace, not an experiment to identify a physical property. Getting an alternate reading of the subconscious of the populace via alternate means can be a useful insight. I would certainly dread any leader putting blind faith in the occult.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#45
In reply to #44

Re: The Folly of War

11/15/2014 1:43 PM

I don't know if he was trying to get readings on the populace, his future, or what.

I didn't like it at all. Here we are at the height of the cold war, Reagan is the POTUS with the red button nuclear option...and he's consulting a palm reader?

Yikes!!!

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 1630
Good Answers: 19
#46
In reply to #43

Re: The Folly of War

11/16/2014 8:15 AM

Interesting!

Margaret Thatcher had a degree in chemistry..........BUT, Ronald Regan was a film star, now isn't that something to write home about!!!!!!

__________________
TO BE. or NOT TO BE. That is the question!! The Bard
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#47
In reply to #46

Re: The Folly of War

11/16/2014 10:57 AM

What I found amazing is the fact that Margaret Thatcher started the global warming hoax.

Go figure.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: England & Ireland
Posts: 1063
Good Answers: 60
#49
In reply to #47

Re: The Folly of War

11/17/2014 7:24 AM

Yet to be shown if it is a "hoax."

Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Project Managers & Project Engineers - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Texas.Baytown
Posts: 697
Good Answers: 26
#48
In reply to #43

Re: The Folly of War

11/17/2014 7:00 AM

I believe Jimmy Carter was a nuclear engineer.

__________________
If you want to know how well a broom works you do not ask the guy selling the broom or the guy who designed the broom, you ask the guy using the broom.
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 49 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Codemaster (2); Crabtree (2); Del the cat (1); Doorman (1); energyconversion (6); facilitiesmgr (2); Gavilan (3); JWthetech (1); kramarat (12); lyn (1); MOBI (4); NeilA (2); passingtongreen (1); redfred (4); simonsd (1); texasron (2); Tornado (4)

Previous in Forum: Italian Geologists' Sentences Overturned   Next in Forum: Reliability

Advertisement