Suggestions for a Water Powered Mechanism

The shaft power available is in the order of less than a single Watt. I hope that is enough to run your machine.

Thanks for your reply.

A Watt? Really?

So at 1 watt this equals .001 HP??? Hmmm, that does not seen like enough

I know that the rotational force of the Tesla turbine will increase with the flow of water through the turbine platters. The turbine will be built to withstand 200 PSI water pressure and 2 lbs rotating at 5000 RPM. These are the upper limits of the possible destructive forces inside the turbine.

I guess I need to build a prototype turbine and test the rotational force to see if it will be enough to move this thing? It will be connected to a 1000:1 gear reduction transmission.

If you have any suggestions, please toss them in!

Thank you

Bryan

You may check water available energy at 120 psi and 10 gpm using Available Hydraulic Power= (Pressure)(Flow rate),

Say in your case

Power Available to be used for your turbine = (120 psi/14.7psi)*101.321KN/m² *(10 gpm*3.785Lpg*1x10^-3 m³pL* 60^-1 mps) = 521.77 Watts not 1 Watt

That is the maximum power you can achieve on your turbine. Less the efficiency on your turbine, less the losses on the transmission and induction of generator.

Actual realized power will be < 521.77 Watts.

It's not bad if you have a battery bank or if you will use it to lit a couple of lights on your house and run a transistor radio.

You may use a small induction motor as a generator and have it coupled with a handmade pelton wheel's bucket and hit it with a water jet made with a garden hose nozzle, it should be an interesting project, some sort of demo kit for your children to show.

Thank you,

I appreciate you showing me the formula and you also working the math. My math specialty is trigonometry, but not having to work math problems on a daily basis I struggle a little with other math.

With your calculation I am getting approx. .698 hp. If that is correct then I have about 10 times the power I'm estimating I will need. However, adding up line friction loss and flow restriction, I will still have more power than needed which is what I want.

First hurdle is to reconcile these numbers:

1. Water pressure is 0 - 120 PSI.
2. Flow is 0 - 10 GPM.
3. Piping from water supply 1/2" plastic tubing at 100' long.

Getting enough water out of a 1/2" pipe to power a turbine will be difficult. You'll need a larger pipe.

There's a lot of loss in 100' OF 1/2" Pipe.

10 gallons a minute is .16 GPS. That's not much power.

You need a Pelton Wheel.

you'd be better off building a small reservoir as a holding area rather than piping directly, it will solve many issues....if you have the space

Interesting replies so far being my hydraulics books suggest that 10 GPM @ 120 PSI theoretically has about ~550 watts of extractable power available in it.

Granted as other said the 1/2" line is going to create loads of looses though. I would go to 1 - 1 1/2" line myself.

1 gallon = 231 cu in or 1 square inch x ~20 ft

1 psi x 1 gal/min ~ (20/60) ft lb / sec = 1/3 ft lb/sec

Water pressure is 0 - 120 PSI, Flow is 0 - 10 GPM.

I assume that is 120 PSI is at 0 GPM and 0 PSI is at 10 GPM. Maximum power would be at 60 PSI x 5 GPM = 300 ft lb /sec (assuming a linear relationship)

1 hp = 550 ft lb/sec. So you might get about 1/2 hp out of it.

I assume that is 120 PSI is at 0 GPM and 0 PSI is at 10 GPM. Maximum power would be at 60 PSI x 5 GPM = 300 ft lb /sec (assuming a linear relationship)

1 hp = 550 ft lb/sec. So you might get about 1/2 hp out of it.

Sorry, should be 60 PSI x 5GPM x 1/3 or 100 ft lb/sec

More like 100/550 =0.182 hp

More like 100/550 =0.182 hp
I can deal with .18 hp

id like to see this 1000 ft line deliver a steady flow @ 100 PSI

It's 100 feet.

But, It would be nice to know the scale of the power required. What is OP driving?

OP??

Everyone, Thank you once again. Though I have had some very different numbers posted it seems that there is a possibility of what I want to build is an actual al possibility. Lyn, What I'm building is kind me of difficult to discuss in a public forum. Copyright and patent issues. Necessity being the mother of invention this is something that I tried to get my superiors to let me build but being a city municipality they just couldn't give me the funds for a prototype of an unproven device. Here is the best that I can describe what I'm trying to create. A machine that will travel along the top of a wall. Like a brick wall about 12 inches thick. The machine will travel along the wall and provide a wash down of a specific area unattended. It is around water 24/7 and has high pressure water available nearby and using the water to drive the machine and then use the discharge spray to wash down the area that is now cleaned by a highly paid laborer. I could reduce the length of the supply tubing to approx. 50 feet but shorter than that it becomes more labor intensive too be the machine to different areas of the wall.

Have you looked at the innards of one of these? Got your turbine, got your gears . . .

That looks cute. Only problem with it is it's designed for high pressure/low flow of a power washer.

I'd like to take one of them apart.

Right - I just meant conceptually. I don't think it would deliver the power OP wants.

You can probably buy one cheap on eBay. I have several in my garage I listed several times and never sold, even though I undercut everybody else! I laugh every time I see one in a big box store priced for several times more.

That was on that other post: what is this?

Thanks for the idea. However it incorporates a Pelton Wheel style of propulsion and wont work for this application.

Keeping 5 acres as well as a 7,000 sq. ft greenhouse requires many hurdles like your idea.

Pressure drop due to diameter and length seem staggering - don't believe it - IT'S WORSE.

At the farm, I had a 30/gal min spring in any season, but still had to pump from the pond, refilling from the spring.

I did get 70 psi at 70 gal/min - with a 3 HP submersible pump and 3" line.

I suggest resubmiting your post with at least SOME definites, this one is like a prayer. I think you should also consider power requirements other that nature.

Your reservoir size to me is on the "A" list. make it as much "higher" as possible.

Consider using a "ram" pump to refill it.

Drink more, and put cool LED's in the glass.

OK.

You want a lot from a hose powered device, but I see where you are going.

Is your water supply gravity, or pump, fed? I'm starting to guess it is a pump with a curve you published originally.

Depending if you want to restrict the discharge to increase impingementagainst a surface, it gets even worse.

Lyn,

I think the lawn tractor sprinkler is going to be a good starting point for my design. Why engineer something that's already been engineered and works. I just don't want to step on any copyrights or patents as I move forward.

Here's a link to how it works. I didn't realize the reaction on the arms drives the wheels.

Here's how oscillating sprinklers work. They (at least some) do use a pelton wheel.

But for you, a gear motor like Lyn suggested below might work best. You could use a couple of plastic gears that wouldn't corrode. I think your biggest challenge will be how to control the weight of the hose.

You haven't said how far the travel mechanism has to propel the part, or whether smooth and constant motion is required.

Is it possible that a simple hydraulic cylinder would suffice? It could even be coupled to a repeating mechanism where the ram moves back and forth, operating a pawl to rotate the drive wheel thus allowing unlimited travel.

As a rough estimate - 80 PSI acting on a 1" cylinder with a 1/2" rod would give about 60lbs push and 50lbs pull, so you won't have inertia problems to contend with. Halve the cylinder and rod sizes and the numbers will be around 15lbs and 10lbs respectively. Increasing/decreasing the pressure will increase/decrease the push and pull by an equivalent percentage.

Pressure will be fairly constant during ram operation as the fluid circuit is closed relative to a turbine where it is open ended.

Valving to achieve either or both forward and reverse motion would not be very complicated.

You may need to limit the input pressure to slow the motion if that is critical.

Tesla was no doubt a genial inventor but his turbine is based ONLY on wall friction of the fluid jet. Water has a VERY VERY low viscosity so the torque transmitted is low and this torque is proportional to the sliding velocity which means it is at its maximal value when the discs are at stall! If the turbine rotates torque decreases. It is one of the LESS efficient ways to generate mechanical power from fluid flows. Look at other type using the impuls of the flow which will be more efficient and bring something!

I thought I gave a fairly detailed description of my idea, however as this discussion progresses I see there are a lot more questions than I have answers for. I'm going to draw up a rough sketch and post it here with answers to some more of the questions.

Sorry that I don't have any of my previous drawings. I lost a lifetime of work when my "EX" decided to help me move out by throwing away years of my technical drawings and sketches of past builds and future projects.

Picture to follow.

Thank you

Bryan

No answer here but Bill Fay at http://www.frenchriverland.com/ has the ultimate picture collection for water power.

This is the best I can do on the picture, this app won't let me re-size it?

Here is a rough sketch.
Just to clarify, Here are my reasons for my choices.

1. High pressure water (150 psi)is installed and readily available to power this mechanism.
2. The turbine speed control is a simple throttling valve on the water supply.
3. I want to avoid any electrical devices or controls (even low voltage), this will be exposed to constant water splashes and spray and worker safety is at the forefront of my concept.
4. I want to achieve a 100% water driven and controlled device
5. The water discharge is performing the cleaning and washing duty of the person that is assigned to the task. A weekly or monthly duty that can take several days depending on the weather and level of cleaning needed.
6. This machine will operate 24/7 unattended.
7. I decided to start this discussion so I can head off several of the prototype gotcha's that I've dealt with in the past. An honest discussion helps open up my creative process as I have always looked up to others with education and experience in the fields I work in.

Lyn,
OK, The lawn sprinkler tractor is a perfect example of what I'm trying to create. A 100% water powered and controlled device. I thought of the Pelton wheel, however I must use the turbine discharge to perform the cleaning and must have a strong directed spray, which is the reason I'm building this device this way.
Lyn, Thank you again for your input. There are several contributors on this forum that I hold in high regard, you being one of them and you know all the others.
I'm open to suggestions and appreciate the input so far.
Thank you all for your comments

Bryan

A bit more info certainly helps..

Maybe a swimming pool pressure cleaner is what you need. They typically use the piped water pressure discharge from the drive mechanism to create a venturi effect to draw debris into the on-board collection bag, but you could easily divert that to jets or a flailing tube type cleaner if that is desired. Can't see why it would not work out of the water but direction of movement will likely be random.

I have tried resizing the picture multiple times and this is as good as it gets. If you want a higher resolution, e-mail or PM me and I will send you a hi-res pic.

Take a look at water-powered mechanical gear motors. Something in a positive displacement motor may be better suited for this.

Thank you all for the calculations and ideas. This gives me enough information to move forward with a prototype based on the lawn sprinkler tractor water powered drive. I will most likely make it larger to increase the power to provide locomotion for my device.

Bryan

Here is my answer: 120 psi = 84.4 m head (h)

10 max gallons/min = 0.00063083 m³/s (Q)

g= 9.8 m/sec²

density = 1000 Kg/m³

efficiency, η = 0.9 (only if your supply hose will have no pressure drop during flow)

P=DQghη

P =1000x0.00063083x84.4x9.8x.9

P= 469 W

That is best case scenario, with a considerably larger feed pipe, and a good Pelton wheel designed for that pressure.

I don't know if the Tesla pump/turbine can do your job, so why not make one and try it, then at least you have a fall-back position?

After further review, the above play is overturned due to OP providing better information: you need an impulse device to spray back and forth (or around and around like the garden tractor, but making two jets on either side of the wall that oscillate back and forth should not be too hard, and that will get things walking, if you think like a ratchet.

What I'm really looking at solving is the actual movement / locomotion of the device first. Everything else is fairly straight forward.

As for the lawn sprinkler part of the tractor, all i want is the drive mech. so I can possibly reverse engineer a larger more powerful drive motor.

I hope I have been able to answer all of the questions posted here. As I progress I will continue this discussion and post my results. Immediate success or failure doesn't matter, however success is a lot more fun.

Bryan

Hello Oringinal Mac,

I can direct you to a possible solution. If you don't already know about the work of Viktor Schauberger than research this man and particularly his work on spiral helical pipes. The best scientific resource is the Stuttgart Experiments.

This is a good paper:

http://www.iet-community.org/publications/reports/IET%20Scientific%20and%20Technical%20Reports%20No%201.pdfd by Schauberger, his son Walter and Prof Franz Popel, Nuremburg, 1955.

The spiral helical pipe or straight fluted pipeis are desined to minimize friction and reduce turbulence as was shown in the Stuttgart experiments. If constructed properly, friction can be minimized to almost nothing. Again, see the Popel report for details.

I hope this helps you.

Kindest Regards,

Jordan