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Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/12/2014 10:00 AM

How about we have a serious discussion about the grid, about generation capacity, and the aging fleet of power units, of which much needs replacement in the next 25 years (I should hope so). Here is an interesting link warning world leaders to focus on what matters, and less on peeing contests:

http://www.powermag.com/iea-40-of-worlds-power-fleet-will-need-to-be-replaced-by-2040/

We need to put down the terrorists hard, and get on with real life for people that want to live it. The soft approach of the current namby pamby administration is not working, and is too much distraction from matters in real life. Random drone attacks only make the enemy more resolute. We need to hit them so selectively, there will be no doubt that terrorism has seen its day, and that day is over.

Yes I am in rant mode today, but calming down a bit as time progresses. Suppose the group discusses opinions about the best options, and begins to lobby for those options to advance? I am setting this up as general discussion, because electric power generation does not fit into any one slot, as you well know.

I would encourage participants to use sound reasoning, shored up with beams of facts, and myself included, stray away from the familiar emotional arguments. We need to separate truth from "political expedient propaganda", and apply truth to how we help the moron politicians out there get out of the way.

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#1

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/12/2014 11:21 AM

The dark side of terrorism is that it is both sponsored by state and non-state members alike.

I will define terrorism as actors that principally strike non-military or government institutions and civilians as their intended target with the goal of inciting a disproportionate amount of fear to move a state toward some political end.

So, what would you do, start a world war to combat terrorism that include countries like Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Turkey, Pakistan, Libya, and a host of other nation-state actors? All of these states have supported terrorists as a means to an end.

Don't forget that in the annals of the CIA there are probably/definitely documents that prove our support for particular terrorists when it is convenient for our own end games.

Terrorism has been around for ages in one form or another and is not a simple black and white problem. It is more like putty; push it one way and something else emerges out the other side. In other words, there are consequences to every action and sometimes those consequences can be seeming unrelated, but even more dangerous than the terrorists themselves.

Unlike engineering or any other scientific discipline, politics and diplomacy are not solidly grounded in logic or mathematical proofs. But then again, that is because it deals specifically with humanity and its hopes and fears.

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#3
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/12/2014 12:38 PM

If terrorism is putty, then freeze it and see where it goes (in other words) we see, we hear, we react to every action they even think about taking, with such force as they will realise it is time to stop, plain and simple.

In the meantime, stop beating up the good, honest folks who have nothing to do with this, or feeling up grandma at the airport either.

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#8
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/12/2014 1:03 PM

with that definition of terrorism, we have a big problem with domestic terrorism in the news lately

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#2

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/12/2014 12:31 PM

"The soft approach of the current namby pamby administration is not working".

I'm not saying the current POTUS is a good leader. I doubt if there is any person on the planet that can do that job adequately.

George W could have violate all rules of war. And he had a team that wanted war.

What do you really want? You want the USA to have charges of war crimes brought against it?

If you want to take terrorism out, you find the identity of the suicide volunteer. You then take out his/her whole blood line, and that is everyone in their family. You don't stop at second, third, or fourth cousins.

We won't do that, but that would cure this sort of terrorism. But it's against rules of war.

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#4
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/12/2014 12:40 PM

Where are the charges of War Crimes for 9/11? Where is the Geneva convention when the combatants are not legal combatants. According to what I understand about the "rules" of war, illegal combatants are allowed to be summarily executed by the Geneva Convention. Yes WE remain so merciful as to feed and clothe them on the taypayers dime. This discussion is supposed to be about building new power plants anyway, but if you want a rant, then here it is.

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#9
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/12/2014 1:27 PM

Why not a research be conducted how to annihilate all the terrorist DNA for the future mankind.

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#19
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/13/2014 11:23 AM

Are we talking "Final Solution" (Endgültige Lösung) now? Judging on how that worked for Hitler et.al., I suppose that will not work, not only that is it horrific beyond all imagining.

I could understand someone wanting to wipe out a terrorist's bloodline (per se UBL), but that seems to impart generational guilt of Biblical proportions. The real thing that is missing is in fact whatever it takes to maintain a dialogue with people before they become terroristic in their thinking and sway their minds to thinking of a better way that values all human life, values prosperity oppurtunity for all (Liberty, egalitarianism).

Given the vast array of power production opportunities that are now possible using the technology developed within the last ten years only, there should be a way to generally "level the playing field" for all who will come and hear wisdom crying out in the streets. Human nature, is still human nature, but hate is taught, not genetic.

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#39
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/15/2014 2:04 AM

The terrorists don't have a rule book!

The USA does (and it is even followed............sometimes)!

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#5

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/12/2014 12:43 PM

Terrorists are peppered throughout the populations of the world....The only clear targets are acquired by extensive and exhaustive intelligence gathering....It requires more of a police action than a large scale war...What you suggest is based on frustration, not reasoned by thoughtful evaluation of the true nature of the problem....

Power generation is being addressed though funded research and increased production of cleaner energy technologies...Witness the dropping price of crude oil as the synergistic effects of our efforts take hold....With the promise of gen3 and 4 nuclear, and fusion advances, our energy production methods are in a state of flux...New breakthroughs in solar and wind generation continue to advance their share of the load....Grid redesign and rebuild are well underway...this together with new efficiency standards and materials for buildings, and appliance, lighting, insulation and other advances in energy saving strategies are moving with great speed....computers have changed everything, and the effects are still being realized...

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#6
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/12/2014 12:52 PM

yes, and computer security in a power plant is right up there.

I agree this is an exceedingly complex field of endeavor, and it is clear that there is no status quo, nor has there really ever been one in the energy field, within the last 100 years. As time progresses will more and more have to get by with less and less power? Will more power be available? Who knows?

Can we train people not to be Anonymous Posters that threaten people when they don't get the answer they want?

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#7

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/12/2014 1:03 PM

Hey James, it's always like that, it's their ball game. The same here in my country.

If we could just build a time machine, see the future and win the lottery or casino and rule the state, it would be better. We could always comeback another to make a change.

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#10

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/12/2014 1:50 PM

lets just keep it simple today and solve real problems..........like teenage acne. tough but doable

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#18
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/13/2014 11:13 AM

ROFL!

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#11

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/12/2014 3:36 PM

Any infrastructure that is difficult to attack is difficult to repair and upgrade. You cannot have it both ways.

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#12
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/12/2014 4:51 PM

--------------"Any infrastructure that is difficult to attack is difficult to repair and upgrade. You cannot have it both ways.------------"

What if energy production and the grid was decentralized? Where power production and grid connections were modular in nature?

Where the profits generated came through the purchase of electrical power from many small individual producers and resold to a larger market through modular grid connections.

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#14
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/12/2014 10:59 PM

I do respect you and your desires but your head is in the clouds of idyllic fantasy here. If energy production and load demands are completely decentralized then either everyone has more energy or demand for energy than can be sustained. We have grown far since the bacteria and algae that existed this way.

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#15
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/12/2014 11:58 PM

----------" If energy production and load demands are completely decentralized then either everyone has more energy or demand for energy than can be sustained.----"

Can you explain this a little further?

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#17
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/13/2014 12:58 AM

Why?

What do you understand of this or my previous comment?

Do you need the sentence structure to be explained?

I'm reminded of the lyrics of an earlier pop song....

When no one listens, what are words for?

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#42
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/15/2014 12:19 PM

Perhaps it is the difficulty of defending the indefensible? When all else fails you can always fall back on the "argument of expertise?"

Your inference that decentralized power production prohibits grid balancing is a non-starter.

Decentralized production and modular small grid design could be both more responsive to variable load and resilient to manmade and natural disaster.

Perhaps the arguments for centralized power production are both antique and irrelevant given modern control technologies?

And yes; the sentence structure needs a little work.

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#20
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/13/2014 11:27 AM

May be redfred what is trying to say is, it would be a disadvantage to decentralized energy production.

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#21
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/13/2014 11:32 AM

Gav: Even if decentralized (distributed power generation) were on a wide scale, this does not protect all the little controllers from HEMP, or just solar EMP. Every system has an Achille's heel, and as Red was saying, the more complex or difficult to attack/destroy, also the harder to replace once something happens.

Unfortunately, I do not think we will not start "dumbing down" the grid, to make it less vulnerable to cyber attack, or to HEMP. I can see that technology may advance along the lines (pun) of being able to have very high tension underground transmission of AC or HVDC, but that will have to be a very expensive project compared to overhead transmission. Maybe someone will find a way to "perfect" Tesla's "station-to-station" power transmission simply by something like radiowave (microwave) power. Certainly schemes have already been thought of for generating solar power in space (in orbit), and beaming by maser, or microwave wide field to ground stations.

Who knows what will pop up next? Maybe home (back-up) generation will eventually be hardened to be immune to HEMP, etc.

As time progresses, market forces will have to dominate as the governments of the world finally decide that tilting the table in favor of solar over coal or nuclear is a really bad idea.

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#37
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/14/2014 8:24 PM

-------------"As time progresses, market forces will have to dominate as the governments of the world finally decide that tilting the table in favor of solar over coal or nuclear is a really bad ide-------------"

Tilting the table in favor of solar over coal or nuclear? I can see we must exist in separate and much different economic realities.

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#13

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/12/2014 10:34 PM

To quote from the referenced site, "without actions from policy makers and industry, concerns about energy security and sustainability will continue through 2040,"

Policy makers get their money from industry in the form of bribes contributions.

Industry gets their money from profits realized by not performing diligent maintenance, remediation and modernization.

Wall Street gets their money by betting that tomorrow the stock will go up, or it will go down. They don't really care which way the stock goes, as long as it moves up, or down they make money.

For these people the future is money made tomorrow. Tomorrow, the future will be the money made the next day. They are betting that the infrastructure will outlast them, without any investment that would cut in to the billions they make by screwing you, me and our progeny.

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#16
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/12/2014 11:58 PM
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#22
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/13/2014 11:34 AM

Grumpy cat does have his uses...Lyn, I am almost as cynical as you, but I still believe there is a way to change things in a "useful" way.

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#23
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/13/2014 11:46 AM

I wish that you were right. Try as I might, I can't think of a single example.

Sam Walton had a good idea when he started Wal Mart. Buy good, American made products to sell, pay the help a living wage and still make billions.

Unfortunately, Sam's kids decided that China was a better source of cheap junk, and employees and suppliers don't matter.

Wall Street still rule$.

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#24
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/13/2014 12:10 PM

Agreed. A greed.

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#25
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/13/2014 12:37 PM

What you propose is not a workable system.....protectionism is a path to ruin....free and open markets guarantee best value for the money....consumers make the choice....without competition, quality drops, that's why monopolies are so destructive...China is undergoing growth pains just like Japan did back in the day, you're old enough to remember that Japanese goods were once considered junk....how did that turn out? We live in a free and open society in which the consumer has the choices to buy from whomever they choose.....and I might add, who do you think owns the stocks of these companies you deride with such regularity? Over half of all American households are invested in the stock market...

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#26
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/13/2014 1:11 PM

"What I propose" worked just fine for many, many years.

Not until greed overtook honesty and ethics did the system crumble into the abyss of profit at all costs. "Take the quality out of the product so the money goes into my pocket" is the credo of business and investors today.

Apple is sitting on $137 BILLION in liquid assets. U.S. businesses have $1.8 TRILLION.

Nobody re-invests in their business, they just sit on the cash.

The Biggest Cash Holdings in the S&P 500 - CNBC.com

Look at our infrastructure. It hasn't fallen apart for any other reason than greed.

Apple and Google, and many others use Ireland as their cash whore. Why pay taxes to help the people who buy your products when you can ship it overseas and hoard it?

Take a good look at Japan today. It is a poor country. The majority of people there barely exist.

China will implode someday, if it doesn't choke to death on coal dust first.

Sure, I make money in the stock market. You do too, probably. I can't just bury my money in the back yard, or Ireland.

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#27
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/13/2014 1:59 PM

"Nobody re-invests in their business, they just sit on the cash."

I'd sit on cash, too, if I felt it was the wrong time to spend it given the slow economic recovery.

Actually, it isn't just sitting locked up in some iVault deep underground, it is invested!

That means the money is circulating somewhere. However, it may not be in the USA, which should tell you something about our current business climate.

My read on your position is that you are quick to point the finger at business, but the fault really isn't there, it's in the House and Senate that make the rules for the business to play by.

Some of those rules, as you pointed out, are dictated by political contributes, but not all of them, which is why we had catastrophes like the housing mortgage fiasco (I am thinking the CRA is the major driver of that) and other acts of social engineering kindness.

Keep in mind that while you like to point fingers at big business the real employers in the USA are small businesses with less than 500 employees[1].

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

1. In 2011, according to U.S. Census Bureau data, there were 5.68 million employer firms in the United States. Firms with fewer than 500 workers accounted for 99.7 percent of those businesses, and businesses with less than 20 workers made up 89.8 percent. Small businesses account for approximately 50% of the total non-farm US GDP.

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#28
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/13/2014 2:03 PM

Source: Moody's Investors Service Particularly flush is America's tech sector. Four of the top five holders of cash are tech companies Apple (AAPL), Microsoft (MSFT), Google (GOOG) and Cisco (CSCO), who together possess $345 billion in cash reserves, or about 23 percent of all cash owned by corporate America today. Overall, the tech sector controls more than half of such cash: $515 billion.

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#29
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/13/2014 3:56 PM

So, what was your point?

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#30
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/13/2014 4:22 PM

My point? Any hope of prosperity for middle America has vanished.

Lawyers, accountants and bankers have found ever more creative ways to screw joe 6-pack, and give it to those least deserving, corporate America.

Our inept, dysfunctional Senators are bickering over perks and giveaways to Wall Street and other special interests, instead of getting on with the business of taking care of the voters.

Well, I realize that voters don't matter any more, since the Supreme court sold out to ..............................................................................big business.

If these idiots let things shut down again, they will still get paid, have their staffs and free everything, while the rank and file will not be able to pay their bills, again.

Sure small businesses are very important. How many will fail this time, if the children don't make nice?

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#31
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/13/2014 4:43 PM

"If these idiots let things shut down again, they will still get paid, have their staffs and free everything, while the rank and file will not be able to pay their bills, again."

Not only are the rank and file having problems paying their bills, but we have a government that can't pay their bills, too.

At the current rate of borrowing there will soon become a time where the national debt will be unrecoverable. So, reining in the budget would be a logical choice - if it is not already too late.

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#32
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/13/2014 4:55 PM

I don't see the current crop of children doing anything to rein in spending.

They are spending like drunken sailors, buying drinks for the house and paying hookers for favors.

They could start by working more than 110 days a year, paring down their office staff, (does the little tart in the short skirt really do anything productive) taking a 15% pay cut until the economy is healthy, (I've taken a 50% cut myself) and not doing favors for their big benefactors.

Look at the spending bill they are bickering over. Where's the relief for the tax payer?

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#33
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/13/2014 4:59 PM

"They could start by working more than 110 days a year..."

I submit to you that we might be in a better place if we limited the legislator's working year to something one or two orders of magnitude less than that number.

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#34
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/13/2014 5:02 PM

Perhaps.

The present crop of law makers is inept, at best. Self serving as ever.

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#45
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/18/2014 11:33 AM

And that cash is worth what in terms of 2006 $$? half? Less then half?

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#91
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

01/13/2025 11:43 AM

The cash is only on paper, the cash really isn't there at all, physically, its similar to the 1920's... the actually stated assets are trillion$ less than the stated value of the assets.

If corporations decided to to use all their saved up cash, banks will begin to fail, just like black Tuesday in October of 1929.

The financial system is quite fragile, that is back up with nothing more than a promise from the FDIC.

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#35
In reply to #26

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/14/2014 10:52 AM

"Japan is the third-largest economy after America and China. It is so wealthy that its regions boast the same economic heft as large countries."

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2014/12/japan-graphics?zid=306&ah=1b164dbd43b0cb27ba0d4c3b12a5e227

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#36
In reply to #25

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/14/2014 8:20 PM

-------------"....free and open markets guarantee best value for the money....consumers make the choice....without competition--------"

Free and open markets? Are you referring to the taxpayers "freedom" to pay for a large part of the business costs for Nuclear Energy? I am referencing the cost of spent fuel management and R+D. (21 billion for R+D alone in the current budget.)

Or perhaps the "open markets" where 40 percent of corn consumption is mandated through alternative fuel production.

Perhaps you are referring to revenue insurance where corporate agriculture pays 38 percent of the insuring cost and the taxpayer picks up the rest? And an even larger percentage of the payouts.

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#38
In reply to #36

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/14/2014 9:15 PM

Nuclear energy isn't the only one that is subsidized by the taxpayers. Now, oil is something different. While nuclear, there are costly safeguards.

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#40
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/15/2014 11:53 AM

---------------"While nuclear, there are costly safeguards----"

The responsibility for spent nuclear fuel and high level waste from plant infrastructure is now being paid for entirely by the taxpayer. The industry no longer pays into the waste fund. The cost is litigated and paid from the Department of Justice judicial fund; not the waste fund.

This of course would include all returned spent fuel from foreign sales.

Is the US rapidly becoming the nuclear waste dump for the world; wholly financed by the US Taxpayer?

Without taxpayer support this incalculable cost of doing business would otherwise end any economic advantage to nuclear energy.

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#41
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/15/2014 12:00 PM

I don't recall that the Taxpayers is 100% on the hook right now for the costs, eventually, I sure they will be.

The biggest problem at hand, is no one wants it in their back yards. The fight on the Yucca mountains have been going on now for years.

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#43
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/15/2014 12:37 PM

Thanks for the good link.

http://www.platts.com/latest-news/electric-power/washington/federal-court-orders-suspension-of-us-doe-nuclear-21844906

The above link references the federal court ruling that suspends payments into the fund.

Here is a reference comment on the issue; which includes reference to how spent fuel costs are currently financed. I have tried to make it as apolitical as possible.

Spent Nuclear Fuel and High Level Waste - Meeting the Challenge: by Mark J. Carter

As of December 2011 more than 67,000 metric tons of Spent Nuclear Fuel (SNF) was in temporary storage within the United States. This SNF is stored on site at both operating and decommissioned plants. This is expected to increase at a rate of about 2,000 metric tons per year. (1)

The initial Nuclear Waste Policy Act (NWPA) was passed in 1982. It was amended in 2008.

The 1982 NWPA established the intent and method of funding for the Yucca Mountain Nuclear Waste Repository which was never opened. (1,2)

Under the initial Nuclear Waste Policy Act of 1982 the Nuclear Power Plant Operators pay 1 tenth of one cent into The Nuclear Waste Fund for each kilowatt hour of energy sold.(3) In return the US taxpayer, through their agent, the Department of Energy, takes financial and physical responsibility for the security, transportation, processing, and storage of all SNF and all High Level Waste (HLW) related to commercial and governmental operations.(4) This includes plant infrastructure that meets the definition of High Level Waste at the end of plant life cycle. (5)

Although the 1982 law allowed the government to review the adequacy of the one mil per KWH payments into the Nuclear Waste Fund; the "NWPA Amendment Act 2008" forbids raising these fees above one mil per KWH. (6)

The "NWPA Amendment Act of 2008" also eliminates consideration of environmental impact of onsite storage when it concerns the issuance, amendment, or renewal of a license to construct or operate a facility. In addition, it exempts the plants from state mandated clean air standards. (7)

Under the required contracts provided for by law, the US Tax Payer was to begin taking possession of SNF and HLW materials in 1998. Since the United States of America, as well as all other nations, has failed to develop permanent repositories for these wastes, the United States Tax Payers were forced to breach their contractual agreement to take possession of these materials. Since 1998 the Nuclear Power Plant operators have been suing the United States Taxpayer to recover the costs of storing the SNF and HLW. (4)

A single Nuclear Power Plant Operator in Minnesota recently settled for 100 million dollars to cover the cost of storing SNF and HLW generated by two reactors. This settlement covered a 10 year period of storage with further litigation and settlements expected. This 100 million dollar judgment is a small percentage of what has already been paid, or is under appeal, regarding other Nuclear Plant Operations. (8)

These judicatory awards are not paid out of the Nuclear Waste Fund; but out of the U.S. Department of Justice Judgment Fund. This Judgment Fund "has no fiscal year limitations, and there is no need for Congress to appropriate money to replenish it." (9)

As of July 31, 2012 the Nuclear Waste Fund balance was $49,474,000,000 which includes interest payments to the fund. (10)

Do such conditions create disincentives for the Nuclear Power Industry to evolve new waste handling and disposition technologies?

Would returning financial and physical responsibility for industry related waste to the nuclear power plant operators result in a more economically efficient Nuclear Power Industry?

Is it unreasonable to require the Nuclear Power Industry to absorb this cost of doing business in a responsible manner without US Tax Payer liability?

Does passing the responsibility of SNF and HLW to the tax payer give the Nuclear Power Industry an unfair competitive advantage over other forms of energy production?

Was the court ruling requiring that settlement payments be made from the U.S. Treasury Judgment Fund instead of the Nuclear Waste Fund a fair and equitable ruling for the American Tax Payer?

Would allowing the Nuclear Power Industry to compete on a level economic playing field be in everyone's long term interest?

References:

1. Congressional Reporting Service Report to Congress - U.S. Spent Nuclear Fuel Storage - May 24, 2012.

2. Nuclear Waste Policy Act of 1982 - section 111 (b) (1)

3. Nuclear Waste Policy Act of 1982 - section 302

4. Congressional Budget Office Testimony - Statement of Kim Cawley Chief, Natural and Physical Resources Cost Estimate Unit - The Federal Governments Liabilities Under The Nuclear Waste Policy Act. October 4, 2007

5. Amendment to NWPA 2008 - section 105 - 12 ( C )

6. NWPA Amendment Act 2008 - section 204

7. Amendment to NWPA 2008 - Section 104 (2) and Section 201

8. Before The Minnesota Public Utilities Commission - Docket Number - E-002/M-11-807 - December 16, 2011 - Section II.

9. Congressional Budget Office Testimony - Statement of Kim Cawley Chief, Natural and Physical Resources Cost Estimate Unit - The Federal Governments Liabilities Under The Nuclear Waste Policy Act. October 4, 2007 - Section - "The Judgment Fund."

10. U.S. Treasury Monthly Statement of the Public Debt of The United States - July 31, 2012

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#44
In reply to #43

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/15/2014 12:50 PM

I didn't quite finish reading your post.

We just had one powerplant cloased down about (2) years ago in our area.

The one remaining at Point Beach, here is an excerpt:

"Role of the Public Service Commission of Wisconsin
The Public Service Commission of Wisconsin (PSCW) has no direct jurisdiction over license renewal, safety, nuclear wastes, or the transportation of those wastes. These issues are regulated by the NRC. Because the nuclear units in Wisconsin are owned by independent power producers rather than regulated investor-owned utilities, the PSCW has only limited jurisdiction over the state's nuclear facilities."

I believe they have a on-site storage area for the spent rods, that is getting filled. And what they are going to do about it is a huge issue.

Their license is due to expire in 2033, while a Nuclear plant down the road, the now closed Kewaunee Nuclear plant closed in 2013. Which was bought up by Dominion Power from WPSC.

I heard its going to take 20-50 years (can't quite recall) to totally decommission it.

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#46
In reply to #44

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/18/2014 2:04 PM

That is the one aspect of nuclear fission power plants that is entirely unpalatable as a competitive free-market energy producer: If this was a private company, could they simply declare bankruptcy and walk away? If it takes 50 years to de-commission, who foots the bill for that? No private company (in their right mind) would build a plant knowing (1) the cost over-runs during construction will be anywhere from 150%-200% of original bids. (2) there is always a probability >0 of some sort of radiation release event within the lifetime of the plant, and the only way to avoid this is (a) extremely prudent operation, (b) performing a very expensive and tightly controlled maintenance program, (3) extreme government oversight, and (4) when you go broke on it and need to close the doors and walk-away, how can you do that without being placed in jail? - remember it takes 50 years to totally close down the site.

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#47
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

12/18/2014 2:21 PM

And I beleive the age plants are licensed are for 40 years. The cost of electricity that are passed onto the custumers are regulated by the government, so,.... That would come to think the operating costs, which include decommisihing costs would also come from the government in other ways....

I know this was a concern with the kewaunee plant, when it was looking for a buyer to maybe have an extension on its licensing. But imdidnt keep up with it.

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#48
In reply to #46

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

01/14/2015 1:05 AM

You do that by passing the Nuclear Waste Policy Act which transfers the economic liability of such challenges wholly onto the taxpayer at minimal cost to the industry.

You sustain fuel sales through political action (Ukraine comes to mind) and agree to "take back" and dispose of spent fuel at taxpayer expense in the name of non-proliferation.

When the US Taxpayer agrees to absorb the single largest life cycle cost; it is much easier to dominate the world nuclear energy market, which by the way, is the third largest world export category behind electronics and oil.

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#49

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/01/2015 5:50 PM

James I couldn't agree more. People need to think about real renewable combinations that can re power a closed steam plant, Instead of all that is already installed , why then start from scratch. Also many smaller community owned structures would be less stress on already stretched out," Problem is Power lines grid operators refuse use-of this form Wind & solar thermals 1 structure". Also the bigger problem is it is not profitable for a big company or big money," because it is not for sale, it's free to any community that supports it, community owned renewable energy power plant. Also local power line operators will not lease the systems to the community," with exceptions of a Co-Ops. We all can do our part for the environment just by standing up and talk about not the how-to but getting it done. Public education site www.renewablethermalwindpower.com Get involved start talking.

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#50
In reply to #49

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/02/2015 8:40 AM

Kenny:

Your comment about refurbishing old, abandoned units or entire plants is OK, but the costs are higher sometimes than for breaking new ground. Other times, older units at end of life cycle have some components such as the steam turbine, etc. that are highly serviceable, have no metalurgical issues, and can continue to be utilized with an alternate source of steam, as in combined cycle operation with a gas turbine, but this really only works for older fossil fuel plants that are of small to medium scale. Old nuclear fission plants, not so much.

If the old nuke is in bad shape, it is much safer to put it to sleep, and re-use the fuel in a molten salt reactor system, as later described. Americans need to get over "nuclearphobia". In fact, nuclear plants (including the LWR's the Navy uses) have a simply outstanding safety track record here in the states (other than 3-mile island, which was a stupid combination of errors). That is part of the learning curve, and NRC has worked very hard to make sure series of mistakes like that do not, or cannot happen in the future.

Wasn't it Michaud who invented this thermal updraft system to be incorporated into cooling towers? I think he is from Ontario in Canada. I have looked at the electric production figures from those designs and they are pretty impressive.

One article showed how this might increase power plant output by over 30%! The only thing I am unsure of from an environmental standpoint on this is the very tall vortex it produces, that some say extends to the edge of the stratosphere. In fact, it is the difference in temperature from the heat source at ground elevation and the upper atmosphere that provides the driving force according to the thermodynamic calculations on this.

As far as high level nuclear wastes, and spent nuclear fuel (snf), the new generation of molten salt reactors can handle these materials as fuel directly as soon as the fissile elements are dissolved in the lithium fluoride (as fluoride salts, as UF4). Low level nuclear wastes have a ready and waiting resting place in New Mexico (WIPP) at Carlsbad, NM. This Transatomic Power company has the answer. Look them up.

transatomicpower.com/

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#51
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/02/2015 10:27 PM

" Americans need to get over "nuclear-phobia". "

Its not just about safety. The industry has become a HUGE and EVERLASTING economic burden to the US taxpayer.

The taxpayer now bears the entire economic burden for spent fuel and end of plant life cycle high level waste. These are very significant costs of that industry doing business. Can someone explain to me why it should be taxpayer responsibility?

Every new plant and every new international fuel sale increases that burden.

The industry is not economically sustainable - even with major business costs wholly paid for by taxpayer dollars.

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#52
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/02/2015 10:52 PM

Screaming about nuclear waste will not make it go away. Waiting for it to fall apart on its own is not a solution either. It is just another form of kicking the can down the road.

The decommissioning of so many nuclear weapons has made a ready supply of nuclear fuel available for use.

Finding a way to consume spent fuel can solve three problems at once. I still like the idea of the particle accelerator driven breeder that consumes spent fuel. The doubly spent fuel from this process looks like it will have a considerably less of a half life afterwards, more energy will be made available and the existing stockpile of munition grade material will be reduced.

Presently this approach is still just a proposal by some very bright people. Research and a working prototype needs to be performed to identify actual achievements and drawbacks instead of pipe dreams and nightmares of this approach.

Wishing for things to be different and pissing on people trying to make things better is not helpful.

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#53
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/02/2015 11:46 PM

No one is screaming Red. I agree that closing the fuel cycle is part of the solution; and I'm not "pissing on" the engineers and scientists trying to solve the problem.

There needs to be economic incentive to advance the industry. Other than ending the enrichment of new fuel the ONLY way to create incentive to apply evolved technology is to make the industry responsible for a larger portion of the business costs.

There is much technical and business expertise in the industry; we are denied the benefits of that expertise in meeting this challenge by subsidizing what will end up being the largest portion of life cycle business costs.

Grant back the nuclear waste funds, including interest, for the purpose of capitalizing advanced APPLIED technology, AND MOST IMPORANTLY, return responsibility of existing and future waste to the industry. Doing so will create the incentive for industry engineers and scientists to meet the challenge of making the industry economically competitive and sustainable.

Or, we can maintain the welfare status of the industry and continue to "kick the can down the road."

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#54
In reply to #53

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/03/2015 8:50 AM

The liability issue you are ranting about exists because the engineering of what to do with the waste has stagnated from political fears.

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#57
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/04/2015 1:03 AM

Grant back the nuclear waste funds, including interest, for the purpose of capitalizing advanced APPLIED technology, AND MOST IMPORANTLY, return responsibility of existing and future waste to the industry. Doing so will create the incentive for industry engineers and scientists to meet the challenge of making the industry economically competitive and sustainable.

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#58
In reply to #57

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/04/2015 12:51 PM

I certainly can't seem to find a good argument against that. Cheers!

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#56
In reply to #53

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/03/2015 9:49 AM

Gavilan: Oh please, brother, go read up on (1)new generation molten salt reactors, and (2) accelerator driven reactor to "double spend" nuclear fuel leftovers and high level waste.

The new generation molten salt machines dissolve the fuel in the molten salt - no fuel cannisters to corrode. Completely different moderation scheme, eliminates the need for any fuel enrichment beyond maybe 1.5-1.8%, a far cry from the old molten salt reactors that needed 30% enrichment.

I don't know enough about the accelerator driven reactors (yet) to comment on that, but do go read up, and come back with a renewed perspective.

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#55
In reply to #51

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/03/2015 9:44 AM

go to the link I inserted on the previous reply to Kenny. There is now an economically possible, even profitable way to get rid of high level spent fuel. It only requires getting over "nukephobia", building the first set of reactors, and getting on with it.

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#73
In reply to #51

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/17/2015 1:28 PM

I am pretty sure every one is missing what I am trying to say about nuclear power generation involving fission: (1)very safe track record in spite of the optics

(2)Yes, high level and low level wastes are a cost overhead that threatens the industry.

(3)Recent advanced molten salt reactors will solve all of the high level waste disposal issue by burning this off (it takes the fuel that is removed from conventional PWR-light water reactors) at a very high burn off rate >95%. Compare that to 4% maybe 5% best on PWR. Over time the PWR and light water (and heavy water) reactors will all phase out, and be replaced by the molten salt nuclear fission cycle (at least for land-based stationary sources). All high level nuclear stockpiles wastes will be used up, eventually the cycle shifts over to thorium fuel (seeded with directly fissionable isotopes). This will all be done using fuel that is strictly low enriched to no enriched, and it will end the concerns about nuclear weapons proliferation due to isotope enrichment to high levels, as that will be obsolete (unless the country involved is actually trying to obtain first weapon capability, or extended capability).

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#59
In reply to #50

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/15/2015 11:14 AM

James I wounder if you are awear of the facts of what & why steam plants are being closed? Some plants are being closed for the source used to make the steam, Coal, is by nature a duirty burnner. What I said by repowering that type steam plant from a combinations of naturals to turn the generators replaceing the burnners with hydraulic power. In any power plant that burns anything to make the steam is what needs to be understood & replaced. The power that can be produced is not the important thing here, it the HOW-TO which is known to be a good source to drive the generators that still have many years of life left. The cost of outter structure designs above all power plants are still less costly than starting from ground up, power lines to the grid.

I know from reading some remarks you have made over the last 6 years shows you have some basic knowledge that seems to be intouch with technologies to some real part of skills.

Now the systems that I have worked to gather 40 years to be put into use & have in three country's in some type structures that have already been proven as a small tempary structures using some knowledge of hydraulics & materials localy found.

The WHAT if factor is not the question. Already in use.

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#60
In reply to #59

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/15/2015 1:14 PM

Coal plants are purchasing the electricity off the grid because it's cheaper to produce electricity from plants using NG.

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#61
In reply to #60

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/15/2015 4:15 PM

OK Phoenix911?? I was talking about all steam plants , not just coal. If I am correct they are steam plants Natural Gas or not it is still steam.

Renewable combinations of renewables in 1 structure as a catainment chamber that is a on demand plant.

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#62
In reply to #59

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/16/2015 1:25 PM

Kenny: I am aware of everything and in the middle of it, so please don't start pontificating to me. Actually most modern coal plants in the USA right now are a gift from God, compared to the real dirty ones south of the border in Mexico. The ones down there spew out tons of mercury, radioactive isotopes, etc., but you know what? There is not one thing you or I can do about that. Steam has more inherent energy built into it, than any of your windmill contraptions, vortex engines, etc., so you are the one that needs to get real here. Stop trying to compare apples with oranges, other than to say, yes, they are types of fruit.

You took 40 years to come up with this idea? WOW, what are you planning for the remaining 40 years of your life?

Maybe you need to show us how to hook one of your vortex cooling towers up (I do believe that technology will produce some energy), to a power plant generating steam from nuclear fusion, nuclear fission using molten salt spent fuel reactor, or the like? Suppose the boiler does burn coal? So what? What if the power your vortex thingy provides is sufficient to offset, CCS, and mercury removal from the stack (along with any other trash). Will that be OK with you if we don't all starve to death, still have jobs to go to (which is starting to look like not), and not freeze to death in the dark?. It takes folks with some real guts to be in the power business these days, not a gutless wonder like Barrack Hussein Obama.

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#63
In reply to #62

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/16/2015 5:53 PM

WoW! James really?? pontiticating PLEASE get in touch with your self. The things that make up the systems that I ref. has been proven already from more smarter people than you can think of. This was not just my research. Any steam plant has some inherent problems just get over it. Get educated for your own mind isn't as smart as you may think small closed minded people like you & others here on this CR4 site is why we have so many problems from your own words shows it" I am aware of everything and in the middle of it" shows your lack of knowledge.

Small minded people only see what they want. I would say that you haven't thought about reading the system to know the HOW-TO.

OK you don't have to reply! I see you know it all above the most lower educated prof.

Only a open mind to ALL possibilities can we expect to have a good discussion here not closed minded child like minded people ,Really look at what you say yourself about steam plants. Don't worrie about my reply' IT WON'T happen Mr know it all.

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#64
In reply to #63

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/17/2015 7:23 AM

Your Agent 'K' aren't you Kenny.

All hail Agent "K", Supreme Being, "The Keeper of the light".

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#65
In reply to #64

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/17/2015 8:30 AM

NO WAY! or do you mean a light at the end of eye opening " some one of just a open mind's eye" with light to the closed minded people that see the light & says it's to bright for them to see. Keeper of the light" YES "I guess if one is in the dark ?? which is most case here.

To think why some people which gave their biggest part of their adult lives in research in real world problem solving, Not the closed minded whom live in the past thought process & complain about things they know nothing about nor do they want to understand.

Look at whats been said by lesser minded people that shows how out of touch with the rest of the worlds knowledge over the last 100 years.

I must say it's been a real problem with thoese whom think the problems are OK with our planets' environment.

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#66
In reply to #65

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/17/2015 8:37 AM

then I suggest for you discuss and share your knowledge and experience,

You'd be surprised how excepting it is..... even to the lesser minds here.

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#67
In reply to #66

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/17/2015 11:54 AM

It would be, If others would read the energy site set up for those whom want a clean green environment from nature with open minds & respect for those who want to know more about how it's done instead of shooting the massager, Which the shooting range has a open door here. We have the knowledge to get it done NOW " Not 100 years ago, Steam engine technologies have been great in it's time, so has the wind towers, old tech. solar arrays, old tech. Remember the star track community, modern Ceil phone. I do give community speaking for those whom want to understand things better for our world" It starts from the Question " WHAT IF" and how can we use it instead of it don't happen or it doesn't work like that. Come on we know that solar heat engines work, we know wind towers work, we know what makes a tornado happen. we know hot air goes up in a tall structure. People with closed minds keep us going backwards in time instead of going forward.

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#68
In reply to #67

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/17/2015 12:18 PM

Welcome to the real world, where no one walks lock step, and to have them change, you have to convince them.

How to convince them, the ways are many. One thing for sure, convincing does not mean by talking down to them.

Good luck

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#69
In reply to #67

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/17/2015 12:53 PM

What you also fail to grasp is that the vaporization enthalpy of water makes the conversion to steam one of the most efficient methods of turning heat energy into mechanical energy. This is why steam plants exist and will remain around for a long time.

Don't get me wrong. I wholeheartedly support the growth of alternate energy sources. We will need power from many different sources in the future. The era of moving steam power is gone. Stationary steam power is here to stay.

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#71
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/17/2015 1:13 PM

Red: I get what you are saying about vaporization enthalpy, but I always thought this was a slight disadvantage for the Rankine cycle, as the required heat removal is to condense the low pressure back to a pumpable fluid. All that enthalpy under the condensation line is energy not available to the cycle, but fortunately there is still a tremendous quantity of energy above that line as well.

Super-critical carbon dioxide offers a real advantage: (1) there is no requirement to condense the working fluid, and (2) the bulk density of the fluid on the cold side of process is nearly in the regime of a pumpable liquid, in fact the compressor looks more like a pump than a compressor, 43 lbs/cu.ft. is a significantly dense fluid. Mass flow in these turbines is higher on a molar basis, also.

Big disadvantage of SCC closed Brayton cycle early on was the solubility of lube oil from bearings into the working fluid. Magnetic bearing advances should most likely have overcome this problem by now.

Another side note: Kalina cycle has a sloped condensation line, depending on composition of vapor/condensate, and this allows more energy to be captured in the process, but this has to be an exceedingly tight system: high pressure-high temperature ammonia water cycle.

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#75
In reply to #69

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/17/2015 2:56 PM

Kinetic energy to mechanical energy is better with less problems, A steam engine moving or stationary is still a steam plant with water needs & problems.

The words in the name of this system seems to be missed by most.

RENEWABLE THERMAL WIND POWER Which word stands out to you, then look it up & read the systems explanation's your self, Maybe more than 1 time, put it down for a couple days , thinking about what you read then go back and read it again, Maybe then you will get a UH HA moment.

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#72
In reply to #67

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/17/2015 1:23 PM

" People with closed minds keep us going backwards in time instead of going forward."

Perhaps it is not "closed minds" that challenge the adaptation of disruptive technologies as much as it is the economic interests that define the status quo.

Control of knowledge and control of energy are fundamental tools of dominion; the folks who hold both are not going to go down without a fight. Unfortunately our political system and that of the entire world is now an extension of those interests. The battle can only be won in the market place, one consumer at a time.

Your personal attack against the membership of this board is not only unappreciated it is insulting and uncalled for.

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#74
In reply to #72

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/17/2015 2:40 PM

Gavilan! Thanks for making a stand about closed mind people keeping us in the past.

It seems that James is good at his job," I may be wrong though" Ha,Ha. At one time I thought he had some knowledge past a steam engine tech. Keeping up the fight to clean it up," which is a burdening job in it's self." Now the steam engine has past it's due time going to WARPDRIVE now is where we need to go with a clean renewable energy tech. Not keep thinking of the past power production no matter what the burning source is to make the steam, as well of what is in the water that comes out of it. If only he can put his skills to work, He states some knowledge of a vortex down draft systems, Question , "why make hot air go against nature by forcing it down instead of going up?" Kinetic energy can be used to run hydraulic pumps that drive the gens in a containment chamber," which has more power than steam & can be controlled very easy, it don't take a engineer to know that, General hydraulics's, structure designs are like that of a turbo charger. the topic's that I have put on this CR4 site over the last 12 years are simple Jr high school knowledge basic, Not engineering over the last 100 years from around the world one just has to have a open mind & see how real world knowledge has come along way past a steam engine. What makes it so simple it has 5 sizes structures & combinations of tech for any country to understand & build it from what they have there. NO NEW equipment to waste time to get built, common canvas & bamboo for a small structure that can cover a small village's center.

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#76
In reply to #72

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/19/2015 4:01 PM

Gavilan! It seems that we both like a good sense of hummer in terms of closed minds going backwards in time, then you must see the thread form" can a combinations of renewable's re-power a closed steam plant " It will amaze you!

I laugh so much I cried, & to think these people claim to be professionals? & knowledgeable past steam engine technology.

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#70
In reply to #63

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/17/2015 1:02 PM

I have been called nearly everything in the book, but your comments take the cake! You can forget about me every having any respect for you or anything you post in here every again.

Just to let you know:

(1)I lobbied for the company I work for to start capturing CO2 by growing algae about 15 years ago.

(2)I work as a steam plant chemist in a steam electric generating plant, and have worked on or studied nearly every kind of steam electric generating scenario that exists. I am well aware of "problems" (that usually are readily overcome by prudent engineering) in steam generation, utilization, and with maintenance of steam equipment.

(3)I lobbied for the implementation of various water conservation strategies for our plants over the years (no to avail). I also let them know about the recent advance in cooling system technology with the advent of stabilized vortex energy recovery systems.

Don't ever tee off on me again.

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#77

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/20/2015 9:09 AM

As this thread has totally gone off course, and has effectively been hijacked by personas ignomius, I am done with it, and will attempt to shut it down.

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#78
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Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/20/2015 9:11 AM

If it were only so easy...

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#79
In reply to #77

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/20/2015 10:56 AM

James! the thread went of course because old steam engine tech. Instead of knowing why our Global electric Capacity crisis is stuck in the middle ages' of learning new approaches to the problems of renewables as a on-demand combinations for the future power needs, covered up by lower educated people in the power industry.

Closed minded people shouldn't hold all as if there aren't other possibilities to this real world problem you should know that being a steam plant professional as you claim to be.

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#80
In reply to #79

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/20/2015 1:38 PM

You make my blood boil! I am what I am, and you have been and continue to be a blinking idiot.

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#81
In reply to #79

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/20/2015 2:16 PM

We got your point. we all closed minded people, we get that.... anything to add that's of value to the thread other then your talking points I just mentioned.

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#82
In reply to #81

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/20/2015 2:21 PM

Polite but I wish you luck with that approach. It appears that minds are already closed on all fronts.

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#84
In reply to #82

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/21/2015 12:07 PM

I'd it was worth a shot, but you are correct sir. On all fronts.

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#85
In reply to #84

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/21/2015 4:03 PM

OK! Now may we start having a open thoughtful adult discussion on real world problem solving the needs to the world's energy & environmental problems using some common sense approaches.

I have on many times ref. a public ed awareness site www.renewablethermalwindpower.com Please read it more than 1 time, DO not speed read or scan read put it down for a couple days thinking about what was read, then re read. Come back & lets help others to understand it's possibilities.

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#86
In reply to #85

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/21/2015 4:27 PM

No we cannot have an open adult conversation with you because you have repeatedly acted like a bullying child. If you wish to act like an adult, stop insulting people with comments about their lack of intelligence.

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#87
In reply to #86

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/21/2015 7:05 PM

Great humor always wins, SO I take it this is what you look like in the morning?

Oh I am sorry, it seems the opening your mind has swollen your head, HA<HA<AH.

WoW I guess for bad grammar & spelling I will also need to get pic to grafts from a coloring book for you to understand this post????????

NOW go into a childish tampering cry. Afterwards when your done acting childish you can come back acting like a open minded adult for discussion.

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#88
In reply to #85

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/22/2015 11:43 AM

You are absolutely hilariously a passive aggressive idiot.

I tried your website, but there is a scrabble between Apple and Adobe that is not settled.

If you're really serious about harking your platform, you should address this first. It's not me its you.

Because there seems to be a term you need to familiarize yourself with, if you're not already familiar with it, its call 'psychological projection disorder'. Please address it.

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#83

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/21/2015 11:34 AM

Taking some humor into it.

Caution statement! in small minds," brain swelling "may occurs when mind is open, Be aware of intense thought.

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#89

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/25/2015 5:13 AM

Fellow members of global spec CR4.

It seems that many members can insult me as a disabled vet & when I give it back, I am not allowed.

Also when members with closed minds that act childish, I am not allowed to respond.

Members that have no clue what a thread topic is about should not respond the the thread.

Energy sector members with a closed mind is responsible for high energy bills & damage to the environment.

Members that don't know what clean renewable energy combinations are should not reply to a thread of such.

Childish pict-o-Graff's showing a troll sitting in dippers, & when I respond in kind I am not allowed, Waite what pict-o-Graff's coloring book?

OK enough of that! I have been informed that others may ref. to public site but I can not, because advertising law. Thats understandable.

Now any members with a open mind can understand how many members don't return to discussion threads.

OK thats fine! open minded people the only thing I guess I can say is remember

there are more renewables that make a on-demand power resource that have yet to come to the publics eyes, Meaning Privet property to keep big dollars from control.

Remember this WAST=Renewable, heat=Thermal, Kinetic=wind power.

This is the future for our planet's environmental problems.

Shamefully I will no longer be part of a member ship to closed mind discussions.

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#90
In reply to #89

Re: Global Electric Capacity Crisis - Really!

02/25/2015 1:23 PM

your comment Reminds me of an engineer I had, he loved to tease me about my baldness. I took it in stide. One day we after he teased me, I look at him, he's was about 6'-3" and 270 pounds sitting with his obesity spilling over an office chair, and I said, Christ Craig, you sure make that chair look small. He was visibly shook up for that remark and left the room.

The follow day his wife calls me, and told me not to tease her 'Craigy' . Because he's real sensitive about his weight.

Now I'll tell you what I told her, that's fine, just remember, if you can't take it, don't start it.

Stay calm and move along.

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