Pulling Line Thru Conduit

You need a fish tape and open each of those elbows to pull and re-insert the lines.

That's what I was thinking. Fishing line, then the 1/4" manila line. Easy to do and worth a try first.

Yea, that's kinda what I did with my 1/2" PVC run. I tied a portion of a plastic shopping bag to some light cotton cord, pulled that through with the shop vac (that took about 2 seconds), tied the cord to my electric line and pulled that through the PVC.

I know the process works; I'm just not sure to what extent. I think pulling a vacuum on a pipe (conduit) would not matter as far as the length is considered and the diameter of the conduit is not excessive.

Thanks,

Don

I have done it as Randall stated and works just fine.

200' is doable. You may need to rent a system, or figure out how to make a 'piston'. You typically use a very light weight cord, and then pull in the heavy tension pull rope with it.

Greenley shows a model 690-15 that says it can operate up to 1000'.

They give specs for the vacuum in that link, and it's a 2 stage. But if you look at their pistons, they are a foam cylinder sized for the conduit.

I've used a cat (feline) toy, type cloth ball, that I tied a pull string too, then used air from a compressor (I just plugged a air tool nipple that had 1/4" MPT, which allowed maximum air flow). This worked well in 1" PVC conduit.

I would use a ping pong ball with fishing line to start off with. Better than many other types of balls as they are very light in weight.

There is a device available whose purpose is exactly as you have described your need and it will go through sweep or standard conduit elbows. It is a "foam carrier".

http://www.cesco.com/b2c/product/Ideal-31-317-Foam-Carrier/14147

https://s3.amazonaws.com/cesco-content/unilog/Batch7/783250/133868-Catalog.pdf

It is a foam piston which is tied onto the pulling rope or carrier rope, put into the conduit, and a shop vac connected (or just held and sealed) to the other end. The shop vac is turned on, a vacuum is created, the foam carrier (piston shape) moves forward because of the vacuum and then appears at the shop vac end. You now have a rope/string going from one end to another. Not magic, just creative engineering based on a simple principle. They are available in sizes from 1/2" to 6".

Some hints on using them: connect and glue all the conduit together. If there are boxes or other in the run put the covers on them or seal the openings with duct tape. If the foam carrier gets stuck in any of these you can continue on at these; if the pulling rope is heavy or large pull a "messenger" rope/string/fishing line through first and use it to pull the larger rope through; Don't try to pull a snake through, it won't work; if the vacuum is applied and it doesn't seem to work, it may have already worked and the foam carrier is in your vacuum already (happens when only one person is doing the task; either use a spooled coil of the carrier rope or place it in a "figure 8" on the floor, twists in the line can cause knots or unwanted twists in the rope; don't use wire lube until you are pulling the wire through; the foam carriers can be reused unless you really tear them up.

One of the most important things not to do is let adult aged children engineers get their hands on them. They may want to use them as a miniature "spud gun"! (compressed air works real good for this)

Yup.

Might be able to get the puff and fish line, even the 1/4" rope, to go fairly easily around two 90 elbows. The cable is prolly going to be a different story.

[edit] I dunno... If the cable is lubed up good, use a friction winch, it would probably be all right.

Always use sweeps for any kind of wire, or cord. 90 degree Elbows are for water and gases (Exhaust etc.). As mentioned, you may need to break the elbow joints and reattach

If the pipe has not been buried, why not break the elbow , throw the 90's away and replace them with sweeps.

Sweeps are longer, so no problem just cutting the conduit.

Tie your manilla line to a sock. I guarantee you the shop vac will suck it through.

Shop Vac will do. Take one of those cone shaped paper cups. Cut the cup so the OD just fits inside the 1 1/2 PVC pipe. Punch hole in the tip of the cone and thread some light twine(kite string size) not the 1/4" manilla. The vac should draw it thru pretty easily. Use the twine to pull the 1/4" line thru.

Now the problem maybe these two 90° degree elbows. I hope if it is ran already they were sweep elbows. If not and you ran water line type elbows. You may get the rope in there but not the wire. This would depend on the size wire. As wire has a minimum bending radius as per size. If you can't get or find sweep elbows use 45 hub elbows.

If those are sharp 90 degree elbows then I would start by asking the utility company if they are willing to work with them. I would think that the answer is probably no.

I have done almost what you describe with about 75 feet of 3/4" PVC. No problems but I had 45 degree and 90 degree sweeps.

My recommendation is the 1/16" (maybe 1/32", I'm not sure) masons line available at home improvement stores. It is small, smooth, light and very strong.

The "piston" or "plug" is a key item. Cotton balls in a HDPE grocery bag work pretty well. Don't make the cotton ball too big and don't trim off too much of the bag. The sides of the bag flapping around create a lot of drag for air flow but don't cause too much friction with the side of the pipe.

I was worried about sucking a lot of string into the vacuum cleaner. I swapped the hose around on my shop vac and blew the plug through the pipe. I was very happy with this arrangement and don't recommend using the vacuum to pull the plug unless other attempts fail.

If you have used water service elbows take them out and replace them with either conduit sweep elbows ( an elbow with about a 10-12" radius for 1-1/2") an LB, a LR, or an LL Fittings that allow access to the inside of the conduit with a cover. LB have the outlet on the back, LR on the right side or LL on the left side. LL's and LR are usually not interchangeable in the run configuration.

Cotton balls and plastic bags and other improvised devises very seldom work. They can get hung up on any residual glue at the couplings and boxes or are not sized correctly and either get stuck or let too much air past them to be effective. As the conduit gets bigger, example 1-1/2", it gets harder to get a seal with these. Conduit pistons are flexible without losing their seal so this doesn't happen. To put a snake inside would require a 200' snake, a heavy and expensive item. If you put a pulling box at the center you could use a 100ft snake and pull from there and the end. Although other methods work they do not have the reliability of the conduit piston. Greenlee sells them as "Conduit Pistons". For a look at them at Grainger http://www.grainger.com/search?nls=0&searchQuery=electrical+conduit+piston .

Disregard their price. Go to an electrical supply house and they should be about $20 for a pair. Maybe they will sell only one to you. The money is well spent. Other ways will take more money and certainly more labor. I learned of them from electrical contractors. I will never go back to pulling wires with a snake or any other less dependable method if I can. Too much muscle required and too many experiences having to pull the line back and changing the size of the home made vacuum traveler.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Go to your friendly neighborhood commercial rental store. Tell them what you need to do. Rent the proper equipment. Do the Job. Take the stuff back. After you have run 2 or 3 thousand feet of wire through conduit you will know other ways that work, but why re-invent the wheel, or wirepuller for one job.

This is the proper equipment. Job is safer, quicker, overall less costly (especially when renting a snake), less likely to hurt you and gets the job done in the newest and safest way. This surpasses the old ways of the metal snake, plastic snake, multiple trimming of plastic bags for pulling with vacuums, cotton wads/balls for pulling with vacuums, etc.

This is the most modern way of doing the exact job the OP wants. Why drive a atv multiple trips when there are pick-ups that do the job perfectly in one trip?

As for 2 or 3 thousand feet of pulling wire through conduit, how about more than 2 to 3 miles of snaking and pulling wire through 1/2" to 3" metal and pvc conduit? Wires ranged from communication wire bundles to #14 to 4/0 to 300kcmil. They were done mostly with steel tapes and I seldom touch one now. That was the part time job to earn some extra income on evenings and week-ends. I know what it is both by brains and brawn. Anybody who doesn't do it with the conduit piston is wasting money, time and brawn. By the time a long snake is rented, a pulling tip bought (not a wire grip), being beaten up by the steel snake as it whips around, straining your arms and back, repeated pulling out of the snake because it got caught on something, cutting your hands if you don't use leather gloves and if the snake has been used previously you probably will have to take the bends out of it before pushing it into the conduit.

This is not re-inventing the wheel. It is going from a canary to a LEL gas meter! Why kill yourself when it can be done easier, faster, safer and cheaper. A 250' x 1/8" snake rents for at least $25-35/day, not the $20/2ea to purchase the conduit piston. As I stated previously this is the newest and best way to pull rope for wires, measuring cords or messenger ropes.

Try it, you'll love it! In the time it took to write this I could have pulled a 1,000 ft of 3/16" poly messenger rope (if I had that much), put the vacuum away and open a cold one and have a 2nd one ready in the other hand.

Good Luck, Old Salt

I never said what kind of equipment. I said proper, recommended. Old Salt, you have the experience I was talking about. You would look at the job and before the OP could find the vac, rope and sock you would be done. But your tools and expertise are not there. That's why I suggested a commercial rental outlet. Proper use of the right tools makes life much easier. (weren't you much better at pulling wire after the first half mile?)

No, after the first 1,500 ft. I had a wise journeyman electrician letting me make the mistakes and then telling, showing, and working together with me so that I got it right. What you did say is that you have misjudged the experience and the knowledge of someone who has enough brains and has expended much brawn doing the same exact thing that the OP wants to do. What was written in #28 could be interpreted to indicate that what was written is relevant to the author of #28. Except for possibility of the OP using "water" elbows I would never use any thing but sweep elbows.

No I wouldn't use a sock or a plastic bag, a wad of cotton, a fishing bobber or anything of the like. As stated before, this is the correct and newest (20 years) thing to accomplish the task. Did you even go to the sites that were included in the previous submissions? If so, it would be obvious that it does the job easier, faster, cheaper, seldom has the problems associate with other devices, and doesn't require any brawn to get the messenger through the conduit. Cheaper? Conduit piston in 1-1/2" cost about $10 and 1 hour, at the most considering getting the tools from my garage and basement, driving and getting the task completed. Snaking--> rental of a 250' snake at least $50-60/day or $40/4 hours. Rental of wire grip $8. Beer for you and the two people to help about $30/day, and 4 hours time from start to finish. Total cost of snaking at a minimum, $50 + 8 + 30 = $88. If you use non alcoholic people $10 for drinks or total of $68. Anyone doesn't have to be an accountant to see the difference!

I have the tools (vacuum, 30# test fishing line on my reel which makes it easier to do it single handed), snakes but I won't need them and a whole lot of stuff. How's about over 100 hammers? The tools are there and have been for a long time. The previous submissions are proof of the expertise. Yes the proper use of the right tools makes life much easier and the expertise is certainly there. That is why I use the most efficient tools, a conduit piston. How many miles have you worked on pulling?

In reviewing other submissions it is suggested that very few have efficiently pulled wire. Not derogatory to anyone please. Most of tools that were suggested either will not work or will take longer to use with a higher probability of failures.

What makes the author of #28 knowledgeable to judge anyone else, especially some one that nothing is known about. If the author of #28 had read #9, 18 and 20 and knew about the subject matter it is clear that it is not bovine scatology. To judge some one you must know the subject in detail.

Personally I hate having to compose this type of "correction reply". I didn't judge or write biased accusations about the author of #16. The renting of the equipment needed would be much more expensive to rent. The conduit piston is the "right equipment" and rental is not necessary. It maybe a younger method but it certainly far better.

Please do not reply to this with any derogatory postings. Life, at least mine and many other contributors, is to be lived and appreciated. There are many subject I know nothing about including spelling. There are some subjects I know a lot about. Lastly there are subjects I know more about than many CR4 contributors. Sailing is one, electrical installation is another, likewise with pipefitting and associated trades. I do not flaunt my knowledge nor do I make accusations or personal judgments unless the other person accuses me of dastardly things. I certainly am not the most knowledgeable on anything. I respect others who take the same position and readily admit it. None of us should be critical and write about anyone else's expertise. Post what seems to be the best answer. This is an engineering forum!

To others who have read this posting: Please forgive me for having written such a long epistle. I hate to do it but false derogatory statements had been made about my "tools and expertise". I don't do it and I believe that most other participant wouldn't do it. Thank you for the time and space.

Good Luck, Old Salt

From someone who has pulled 1000's of ft of this, Use a good shop vac and regular "jet line" which Greenlee, Klein,Ideal and Garderner Bender all make.. design specifically for this purpose

http://www.idealind.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=31-338

http://www.greenlee.com/products/TWINE%2540cSPIRAL-WRAP%2540d1-PLY--(430)%2540..html?product_id=18720

This will will pull hundreds of ft in less than 15 secs with a good shop vac and a mouse made from a plastic bag. The jet line is spooled into 5 gal buckets and will come out without problems no matter how fast the mouse goes!! Then you can pull a LOT of wire behind it without changing to anything heavier if you'd like..(pulled 3 -4 thhn and a 6 almost 275 ft across under a building to a Motor center with this) If you have hard 90's ,unless they are @ the beginning/end of run you are going to have an issue for a number of reasons in PVC feeding cable in to start the pull and the amount of friction on the other end will will steadily increase as you get more wire in, leading to the rope starting to compromise the pull end 90 due to friction... If they are in mid pull you are prob going to a lot of issues , unless your only pulling #6 or smaller thhn strand for same reason

Not a job I have ever done but one point that seems to have been missed in the replies is that, if you have 2 elbow joints, you can treat the run as 3 separate smaller runs.

The 90 degree wide sweep ells are at the beginning and end of the run.

Thanks,

Don

Never mind.

My son has the paperwork from the utility company but I'm pretty sure they do call for using sweeps. We are responsible for getting the 1/4" manila through the conduit. The utility company will use the manila for pulling the electrical line through. We can not have separate pull boxes between the sweeps; the trench will be dug along a property line. We just need the property owner's permission to place the trench there, which should not be a problem.

As I stated before, I have used the vacuum method on shorter runs. I did see someone on youtube vacuuming twine through a long run with, I believe, four 90 degree elbows. He did not say how long the conduit was. It appeared to be over 100 ft.

Thanks for all of your suggestions and observations.

Don

Do you know why the utility co. would specify 1/4" manila? It has been many years since manila was used for this. It has a greater friction between it and the conduit walls, has a lower working strength, deteriorates with moisture, shrinks in length, very difficult to splice with small cross sections and the knots are bigger in size. The normal procedure now is to use polypropylene woven rope for smaller sized rope and twisted for larger than 1/2" diameter. Advantage of the braided is that a eye can very easily be spliced on an end even without a fid. A long screwdriver, a bell hangers drill bit or even a coat hanger can be used. The harder the pull on it the stronger the splice.

Normal practice, if length is known, is to pull/vacuum a 3/16" or 1/4" poly rope through the conduit and either use it to pull the wires or to pull a larger and stronger rope through for pulling the wires. Also now poly rope is cheaper than the same diameter manila. Manila is also difficult to find it to buy.

Good Luck, Old Salt

As long as the "90" degree elbows are sweep ELLs then you are good. 200' is a piece of cake and the shop vac will work fine. I typically tie the string to a plastic grocery bag wadded up.

I would hope that the utility isn't using the 1/4" twine to pull the wire, it really is not strong enough to use to pull wire. I think it is there for them to pull a measuring tape through the conduit to measure the wire rough length.

They typically use a "Tugger" to pull long lengths with a strong pulling rope and sometimes pulling lubricant.

I believe the specs do call for wide sweep ells. I agree that the 1/4" manila will probably be used to pull a larger, stronger rope that will be used to pull the electric line. No idea why the specs call for manila. And, I also agree that the manila may be used for measuring the run. I hadn't thought about that. Thanks.

Don

Yes, but I would install a small nylon line using a 1-1/2" mouse or part of a Dixie cup first then use the small line to pull the rope in.

A 1/4 manila rope may not handle the stress so I would ask the utility company if they would allow 1/4" non-stretch nylon or synthetic instead.

Some electicans use a rubber ball just small enought to pass through

all of the conduit with a line attached and use a vacuum to suck it through

Do not hang onto the line !!! , it happens so fast it'll burn your hand.

Jerr