Welding Aluminium

If your looking for some real good youtube video on technique,

welding tips and tricks

Sorry, I don't know your issues with gas bottle rental or title. Here in USA, every state regulates these different, in Iowa, you can rent by the month, or purchase a title to a bottle, and then exchange as needed. This has been my option for Argon, Oxygen, and Acetylene. The title to large bottles are US$250 each. I have not purchased a fill argon bottle in years so I can't quote a price, but I thought it was $40 last time (12 years or so).

The problem I see with your disposable bottle is the pressure can't be anywhere near the 2-3KPSI of the high pressure bottle, and I have no clue how many feet of weld you can do with what must be in the ~150PSI filled bottle. It will depend on how much TIG flow rate, and I've learned that more is better then less. I've overheated a few ceramic TIG cups, that may not be an issue with short duration welds. I try to be frugal too, as argon is not cheap.

Good luck, as the videos make this look simple, and aluminum goes from solid to liquid in a blink, then you touch it with the filler rod, and have a big hole to fill.

Thank you ignator

I've learned a bit from the link.

We don't appear to be able to own cylinders here, only rent them and I spend considerably more on cylinder rental than gas.

Tony

There are states here that will not let you own a bottle (if you want to have it filled with high pressure gas). So I understand not renting.

That was my very short experience (high cost of rental) when I purchased a Miller sycrowave 250 from one of the local welding supplies. I thought I purchased an argon bottle title, which after the first month, a rental fee appeared, that was returned. But that shop has never received another penny of my money, as the sales guy knew what I wanted, and I never saw a rental agreement in the purchase. Later there was a class action law suit against them for exceeding bottle rent fees. The lawyers sent me paperwork to recover $1.20 which they took most of. Funny things to remember.

The problem with welding aluminium is the start of the weld. Aluminium, especially some older one, tends to build up a oxide layer on the outside which is difficult to break through with your TIG system. It has to do with a lack of electrical (surface) conductivity.

Best welding devices have a HF chopper that is superposed on the regular output to just crack that layer.

Welding aluminium needs also quite some power to heat the spot (locally),since it is a very good heat conductor and easily directs your heat to other places of the material.

The tip of your torch is important too, since the life time depends on it. Welding aluminium by tig needs to go pretty fast and controlled, since otherwise your material becomes liquid and collapses.

An aluminium weld also needs to come to strength again in time. The weld remains weak, sometimes for a couple of days, depending on the composition.

You can also remove the oxide layer by mechanical means (file, sanding)

I'd go for a low cost HF start (important, to avoid tungsten contamination), AC TIG (cleaning action of partly reversing current is essential for welding aluminium), and would also avoid combination machines like TIG+plasma etc. The newer IGBT technology is advertised as more reliable than Mosfet, but the truth is it can only tolerate a bit worse designs and implementations, so is not critical on its own. I occasionally use a cheap Chinese Mosfet 200a AC TIG, more than 5 years now, no probs. The only luxury I "miss" is variable AC frequency, that slightly changes arc concentration, everything else, pre-post gas flow, current ramp up-down, variable frequency pulsed current with adjustable peaks and valleys, variable AC ratio for adjusting cleaning effect on welding aluminium, etc, etc, all else is there. Now, if you want real, not just CLAIMED, professional reliability, prices START at tree times over that solution, and still most if not all of their parts are of the same origin. S.M.

I have used the Dillon Welding torch and it works great on aluminum, There is some techniques to adhere to but very simple. I have not fusion welded with it on aluminum but all you need is some parent material cut in strips for filler rod. Flux is necessary and clean area to be welded with stainless steel brush.. Check it out for yourself..

Hi all

Obviously contamination is a huge issue, I see flux is available, any comments?

Thank you for the time and effort replying to my post, I have learned a lot and hopefully others in my position can benefit also.

Spades - I couldn't find your exact model, probably superseded.

roy hammy - couldn't find a Dillon torch, but I have heard of them.

HiTekRedNek - couldn't find a glass brush.

Tony

"couldn't find a Dillon torch, but I have heard of them"

If you really want one, try under the name "Cobra torches" as they purchased the company some years ago. I don't remember them having any dealers in Australia but that may have changed.

Pretty good spin you have their ole pal. It reeks of ... well you get the point and does very little for my morning coffee .

Myself as an owner of a formidable manufacturing company it never crossed my mind to buy disposable ....as we are still using some equipment we bought from local suppliers over 25 years ago and yes we get parts and no they are not cost prohibitive. I could safely say I have purchased or leased 100's of weld machines, and so much experience with this alone, to speak from a very professional awareness. When you talk quality and other factoids, I developed some of the record setting pressure, and water depth deployment of pipeline equipment by design, engineering and manufacture and along with what have become API practices, I pioneered these in the first modular subsea system built... not the second but the first. I believe "I am as the company owner" still in Wikipedia for the largest System Integration Test by a manufacturer with the Atlantis subsea oilfield which I designed and manufactured, to the highest quality standards available on this planet.... btw American standards. So I need very little to help about defining quality.....especially when it comes to cheap admittingly disposable welding equipment, or other as to that factor, and especially when it is arrives via a sales rep carrying a knockoff tool pleading to buy using an American Indian Symbol of Toil, as a choice for its moniker made in China....Goes to show just how dependent the world again relies totally on America and getting something for free, I assume, the technology of course came from where?... from the home of the brave and free .....America

What, are you trying to piss people off or are you just that arrogant? Or is it you suffer from an inferiority complex? I'm surprised your still in business with your attitude. I find your an embarrassment to America and the American people.

You are the exact opposite of what we the people of the United States stand for.

This is a world wide forum, so who gives a $hit what you think you are.

Well I'm both amused and bemused.

Amused at the self indulgent egotistical rantings of a poster who should be seen as a thorough embarrassment by his compatriots, and bemused that his post has been allowed to stand while the only fellow countryman who objected strongly enough to his diarrhetic outburst to say so has been voted down.

Certainly doesn't help the national identity.

If ever there was a need for a "Like/dislike button" - this was one.

There have been much time devoted to providing excellent answers and I'm very grateful where ever in the world they come from.

I've ordered some Muggy Weld and will report back with my experience.

Tony

Good on you Tony, I will await your report as I too am interested in what that stuff can do.

Some years ago I tried the one where they show repairing a drink can in the ad and I have to say that was about all it was good for.

Back in the early eighties, I purchased Lumiweld aluminum 'welding' rods. I used it to repair a buggered up threaded hole in the head of my CB750. Sounds very much like the Alloy 5 of the Muggyweld product.

(Something about a screw extractor that broke off trying to remove a broken stud, then clumsy attempts to remove the broken screw adapter, etc. )

I used a Coleman camp stove to heat up the whole head, then used a MAP torch in the area of the repair. It took a bit of work but I managed to fill the nasty hole, drilled and re-tapped the hole. Worked great. The bike is still running today in the hands of my oldest brother. You do have to 'stir' the molten puddle with a stainless wire or rod to get the stuff into solution with the base metal.

Of course, now that I am smarter and older, or is it smarter because I am older, I would have just drilled out the broken stud and put in a heli-coil, but when I was 19, I was stupid wasn't familiar with the nasty side of screw extractors.

My attempt was at repairing holes corroded in an Aluminium alloy fuel tank of a Partner chain saw that had been left sitting with fuel in it for some considerable time.

TIG was too heavy and was burning holes in it.

The solder type stuff was hard to get to attach and then fell off in pieces at the slightest knock.

There was a suspicion that the tank was magnesium alloy which would have explained the lack of adhesion, but a vinegar test proved this not to be the case.

Ended up using JB weld and a couple of pieces of tin to fill the holes and the saw lasted for many more years after that.

Gave me a whole new respect for JB weld.

Yours is not the first time I have heard of JB Weld to the rescue when all else fails. At that point what do you have to lose?

Like with many things, preparation of the surfaces BEFORE you make the 'repair' is almost always the most important aspect of the job.

Dead right!! I liked your post.

You need to be almost "Hygienically" clean when gluing for example.....

I always use what we call in the UK "Meths" for such work, the US calls it "Denatured alcohol" I believe...

It makes any "gluing" of parts "stick" many times better., simply when both parts are well cleaned first. Meths is also cheap!!

While visiting our "then" manufacturing facility in Palm bay" in 1983, I saw how the gluing of certain metal parts only achieved a bond maybe 2 out of 3 times at best.

So I looked at the process documents the "gluer" was using and no mention was made of cleaning before gluing. The parts had just come out of the machine shop and had dried on cutting oil!!

So I talked to the manager.

The "Gluer" came to me the next day after the process docs were amended and told me that he was now achieving 100%!! Boy was he HAPPY!! He never ever had another failure....

"Cleanliness is next to Godliness" I am told.....

Lovely post! Thanks for sharing!!

No it doesn't help with our national identity. I sure as hell not going to let this A$$hole represent us American's with his opinions. Most of us "American's" are not self centered and obnoxious as he presented us Americans as.

And being this is a World wide forum,and as an American, I didn't want to let this behavior go unchecked.

I'm surprised that the Admin. left his post standing too. I'm just glad Tony got some really good advice from everyone else.

G'day to you all.

Dan

How right you are!!

Agreed! Never argue with a pig.He will drag you down into the mud.

And remember:Pigs love mud.

To judge every American by the rantings of an

egotistical,dogmatic,obnioxius,philosophunculistic, socially rude,crude and

unacceptable cretin with a Narcissistic Personality Disorder would be unfair to the

intelligent,kind,generous,tolerant,and altruistic majority of American citizens.

(Politicians and lawyers excepted. )(they are the same everywhere)!

Love it!

LOL!!!

Stay well my friend.....

I would waste my time answering you, but will just enjoy my coffee instead !

I use aluminum oxide sandpaper and discs- yes it is still a contaminant, but specifically what the arc is designed to remove. You can clean with acetone afterwards for a beautiful joint (but don't weld right away!!)

I am surprised, looks good, may be a cheap option as I have oxy gear. It's available in Melbourne, Australia too. Thanks Tony

That product may be sufficient for your needs, but just remember that it is not welding the 2 pieces together as there is no fusion of the metals, it is really a soldering or brazing technique and, despite the claims, will not be as strong as a proper weld.

How can you be so sure? Just watching a video?

I was VERY impressed with that metal, it looked really good.....

Furthermore, even if you are right, increasing the area of "soldering" should bring back the strength/stability required.....eg. a minor redesign, MAYBE!

How can I be so sure of what Andy?

I'll take my points one at a time.

1. That it may suit his needs? - I can't be sure of that, it may well do so.

2. That it's not welding - I have watched numerous of their videos over time, and they inform you on at least one of them that the process is a form of brazing and that it does not alter the base metal. They also say, and it is quite obvious, that it does not achieve a high enough temperature to melt the base metal, therefore it is not welding.

3. That it's not as strong a weld. - On one of their videos they state a strength of 30,000 PSI, that's considerably less than the minimum claimed for TIG welding of Al alloys.

I'm not arguing that the product does not have its uses, but it is in no way welding.

Google the terms "Weld" or "Welding" for a correct definition.

Brazing is considered to occur above 800 degrees F.

Below 800 degrees is considered soldering.

Brazing is not the answer to all cases in joining aluminum,but neither is welding.

Some aluminum types cannot be welded,and others suffer cracking during and after welding.

In a lot of cases,brazing is sufficient and actually better,as in the case of some of the 7xxx types because the heat is lower.

I am sure there are critical situations where the full strength of welding is needed,but in most DIY projects,brazing is adequate.

"Brazing is considered to occur above 800 degrees F.

Below 800 degrees is considered soldering."

According to my old texts, Brazing temperatures are considered to be in the range from 1100°F to 1600°F, but in either case we must class that product as a solder as the #1 has a melting point of just 350°F and the #5 at 600°F.

#5 is just a bit higher than the melting point of soft solder but lower than that of hard solder.

Silver solder, which is really a Silver braze, generally melts at temperatures above 1200°F.

Aluminium does not begin to melt or fuse until temperatures in excess of 1200°F are attained.

I had a friend who flame welded the bodywork or a certain car formula in the 60s that he himself drove, he even used aluminium cut offs as a filler. He was really good. Before even fiber glass was in common everyday usage for one offs.... Alu was also cheaper and less work!!

They looked like small CanAm cars if I remember correctly....

I even saw him flame weld a magnesium bell housing that had been cracked. We all stood around with fire extinguishers, to save the surroundings as we knew that stopping the magnesium burning would be impossible! But it was off the car at least!!

I have never heard of or seen that being done before or since!!

The secret to this is to use a reducing flame; i.e., extra acetylene to scavenge all available oxygen. Aluminum arc-welding rods are decent filling material; the flux coating also helps.

Great comment!

Again, thank you all for the time spent answering.

I appreciate the difference between welding and brazing.

This prototype project frame is more about rigidity and lightness than strength. It consists of round tube through holes in rectangular section, attaching stiffening plates to rectangular section and joining corners of folded 2mm sheet.

If the joints are 25% of welded strength, that will be adequate. I can buy a starter kit for $90 and design around its limitations.

If a total novice such as myself can use it.....

Keep tuned to this thread.

Tony

I learnt welding, brazing etc., from professionals in the early 60s. I know how and the terminology, though its only been a hobby for the last 10 years or so!

I agree its not welding, but it looks like its strong enough for most jobs. It seems easy to use and if only a propane gas bottle and a torch are needed, its cheap tools as well.....GREAT!!

I had expected that you would come back, and tell me you had used this product and that it failed where welding would be fine.

But you didn't, you haven't used it either, so you only have an opinion, nothing more than what I have!!!

Really funny.....Don't ever try leaning out of any windows!!

I will try and get hold of some of this metal if I need to fabricate something quickly, just to get a feel for how useful it really is.

Then I can post facts instead of opinion, and I will try to be positive when doing it!!

Have a great day.....

I did lean out of a car window one time.Got a ticket for mooning!

I've used the Muggy Low temp on radiators,but not their other products on the sheet or cast or pot metal,which is a different temp alloy.

The Allstate 31 is a higher temp,higher strength true brazing alloy.

Everyting has it's purpose.

Hi all

In the picture you will see the disasters in lessening order of severity, left to right. The tube is 32mm OD and the plate 3mm.

1. Couldn't control the heat
2. Better heat control
3. Covered in acetylene soot which I used it as a heat indicator, I thought this would contaminate the joint, but it didn't
4. Changed nozzle to a 12.

I need a carborising flame, with a larger nozzle and less intensity. I removed all the soot either side of the junction and finally concentrated on the junction, made sure the flux was right around the join and dipping the rod constantly.

I estimate the joins would be about $2 each, the kit was A$100 including postage. The kit I used was the Super Alloy 5, it is also available at a lower temperature Super Alloy 1, which I may do the sums to see if that is suitable.

Again, thank you HiTekRedNek for alerting me to it.

Tony

You are welcome.

Glad I could help.

Nice job. It looks like you got the hang of it. Numbers 3 and 4 are quite respectable. I also appreciate all those that posted their tips and experience. This is one blog that will stay in my "subscription" permanently for future reference because I like so many of the contributions. And since I work in the aerospace industry I have access to craftsmen/artisans down on the shop floor that do absolutely beautiful work. I will forever be in awe at their finely honed skills. I am a weekend hacker zapper and can put together a motorcycle trailer using some channel iron and a stick welder, but that's probably as far as I will ever take it.

Cheers !

Thanks for keeping us updated, Tony!

Just wondered what the filler rods are? Reason for asking is that I've got a handful of Gas welding rods sitting around from before I got the MiG and TIG units, they're aluminum sticks with a flux core and wondered if it was like that.

Hi JNB

No, it consists of a 35dia x 55 high container of white powder flux they suggest you refrigerate (that went down well with my wife!), I assume to reduce the humidity and 7 off, 3/32" x 18" rods, plain metal.

How did the fluxed rods go!

Tony

Unfortunately aluminum welding is one of the more difficult processes to start with, and do correctly, but once you establish the parameters of your equipment on "practice" materials, getting input voltages , gas flow, etc. correct, not an issue that can not be overcome as many hobbyist do not use a written weld procedure (as I do not see where you have an active procedure noted to set the parameters, consumables and variables with). Do not be discouraged, you can do this.

One of the most difficult accomplishments is to see visual changes when the material is going in and out of transformation at the weld pool once you get the "shaking pudding " part accomplished this process becomes much easier , faster and better.

I do not recommend argon as the exact gas , however it will suffice but will trap gas in the weld pool (puddle), thus having micro inclusions of gas molecules, yes it will leak and yes it will easily fatigue. The gas needs to be a Helium / Argon mix this will get rid of this issue whether using TIG or MIG. It will also help appearance of welds due to the trailing effect of solidification, of course this is recognizable after much practice. I am not sure about the disposable bottles but I believe it is available, myself I use commercial amounts anywho.

I generally use aluminum filler wire to do the start off ....period with TIG only (Mig you must always have filler as it is the electrode...) I recommend wire availability for fuse-able material whether at starts, lapping for fused seams or other and keep it available to feed as the weld progresses, getting fuse-able overlap on exterior corners is easily done also, with interior junctions etc. it is a different story.

Practice makes perfect, so don't give up and good luck !

I tell you what, this is some interesting discussion and just wanted to comment about this .

This was a great information, like many guys I did my first al weld on my flat bottom..jon boat prolly 25+ years ago and I brazed it with the first al rod made for that, and I was shocked at the quality then and what has come about since. When I read the post today I realized how things change and how we all forget sometimes others have great ideas, and God bless America for all the good people who will sit down and offer someone quality advice, take the time out of their day just to help..I am truly thankful and impressed.

"God bless America for all the good people who will sit down and offer someone quality advice, take the time out of their day just to help"
You gotta be kidding me, much of the info on this thread has come from places far removed from the US.
You need to broaden your horizons a little.

How are things in Port McQuarrie,, I have a friend in Nelson Bay NSW.. cheers.

It's a little like I would expect heaven to be, not that I will ever find out for sure.

Love your country too, been into Canada 5 times, mostly the West coast and only the very bottom of Ontario.

My Nelson Bay friend lived in Ontario for 20 years then decided the cold was not to his liking. Went back to OZ and I visited in 90. We call Hamilton our home.. here in Ontario.. cheers & Blessings.

The main thing to watch out for is to watch out for cracks. Aluminum welds are not that strong and break really easy. It doesn't handle the same as it does welding mild or stainless steel. If what ever you are welding is going to bear any stress, then you might want to make sure there is some reinforcement. Also, have a bit of filler rod handy just in case.