Unbeatable Wire Pull

If I read correctly you are trying to get the old insulation out only as the conductors have been pulled from the other end.

Might try high volume air blow back from the pull end, plumbers may have a solution for you they clear some pretty nasty clogs.

Heavier tugger? if it is a vertical pull try a high capacity forklift they can generate considerable force but be forewarned that they can also pull they conduit right out of the concrete.

"If you pull on it hard enough you will break something." Agreed.

Title of the thread is Unbeatable Wire Pull. This sort of sounds like the irresistible force. Our OP is already breaking wires. I sort of doubt the Tim Allen technique is called for here.

When the unshared information regarding the wire pipe and cables is used in a wire pull calculator or conduit fill calculator, what does the calculator tell you?

Oh I don't know. Every time Tim went for more power and failed spectacularly, Al looked better and better. I've found that sometimes it is better to let them fail. It often helps to clear their ear canals.

It was always funny to watch!

What is the complete length of the conduit?

You might try a plumber's snake, the kind with a helical coil on the end with a sharp point to snag the blockage. I would think pulling is far preferable to pushing because pulling would relieve the blockage, whereas pushing would tend to cram it tighter.

I'm confused. You said you had 4 conductors in the conduit, but now you have three. You also said you've pulled out all the conductors from the other end. So are there still conductors in the conduit or not? If so, try pulling the remaining conductors from the other end. At this point they may be damaged and will have to be replaced anyway.

You poured soap into the pipe (as a lubricant?), but did you use a shopvac to force the soap into and then beyond the clog? It may not be getting to where it is needed.

The insulation has peeled off the wire and wedged itself in there, that when combined with the friction of the copper on the conduit, has created a perfect storm of a wedge of copper cemented in place with the dried up cotton swelled up with the lube.

Abandon the old conduit in place or jack hammer it out and replace it with new materials, cheaper and less time consuming.

That is exactly what happened. This is one of the four cables we were able to pull out.

The other three are wedged at the 90 below the panel. we have to shutdown the building to access the panel.

The total run is about 175ft to the middle of the first floor panel.

If a new conduit is run, it would probably cost around 30-60K.

Just looking for ideas.

Thanks

All the wires have been pulled in about 35ft. So no pulling back the other way.

Well, I don't know about anyone else but this isn't what I thought you were asking about. This is, I'm afraid, worse than I thought, and I thought it was sort of bad to begin with.

To dig up and replace is an excessive amount of $$$. I suppose you've considered the easy alternative: abandon existing wireway and go overhead in lieu of underslab.

Where is that Tesla guy with his wireless energy transmission when you need him?

Two more ideas: 1) Vibration. If the jammed conduit isn't too deep below the concrete surface, and if you have a pretty good idea where the clog is, rent a vibration machine and send waves of vibration into the clog to see if you can shake it loose.

2) Jackhammer. Break through the concrete at the point of the clog and chop it out. Then pull out the rest of the cables, repair the conduit, fish new cables through it, and then patch the concrete.

I do like the idea of using an electric motor driven compactor.

Could you clean out the soap sludge and poor in some acid (say hydrochloric acid - dilute form such as that used for cleaning bricks - maybe a tad stronger), to dissolve the insulation - leave it there a while? Then flush thoroughly. Assumes that the conduit can handle it and you won't leave puddles in it.

Just an idea - maybe too dangerous.

One solution may be to find a suitable solvent that will dissolve the cloth and which then can all be flushed out of the pipe. This will depend on the conduit material, local environmental concerns etc., but it's another possibility.

Other than that, you are going to have to get into the conduit at the point where it is clogged.

That will entail a bit of concrete cutting and you will want to be at the right spot if you go that way

Consider connecting a wire tracer such as the Ampro 4000T or similar to the still in place wires so that you can find where they go under the slab. You can also find where the wires actually end with one of these devices. Another option is to push a metal snake in as far as it will go and connect the tracer to that to find the route of the conduit

Alternatively, employ a concrete radar scanner to find the conduit route.

The jam up is likely to be at a bend, so that would be the place to start, but a simple measure of the length that you have out will give you an idea of where the problem is greatest.

In any event, getting into the pipe somewhere in the middle will ease the burden, and it shouldn't be too hard to re-establish the integrity of the conduit afterwards.

Is the 90 5 feet below the panel? or horizontal? A 90 in a conduit w/o inspection point is bad design in any case, but if absolutely necessary, it should have a good radius on it.

I would take out the section of the elbow, pull the rest of the wire straight out, replace the elbow section, and run the new wires....

Ahh...but is there only one elbow?

Who cares? cut 'em all out....

If you had started with one of these you'd be done by now....

Go see the local plumbing experts and borrow/hire the services of a pipeline inspection camera that will fit the conduit. Most have 50ft cables but often they will have some with 150ft leads.

That will allow you to base your direction on observation rather than guess.

Some of these cameras are self driven, while others are pushed by operators into position.

If it's so important that the surface no be disturbed, then there are pipe bursting options to run a new conduit through the track of the previous one.

At the vacant end of the conduit extend it to connect a tee fitting with ball valves to each branch of the tee. On one branch connect a pump on the other branch a vacuum source. With with the vacuum ball valve closed pump in a solvent/lubricant. WD40 comes to mind. Then close the pump valve and open the vacuum valve. Vacuum. Repeat this process a number of times. Give the copper another tug.

I would suggest using some of the available plumbing tools - camera to see what is going on and auger to clear it.

Perhaps try calling in a plumber..... they are familiar with this sort of problem.

The camera is a very good idea that way you may get a visual of the issues..a little technology will usually help in the diagnosis. Possibly a roto rooter device will clean the bore possibly with some compressed air at same time to clear the debris.

If the other end is empty (all pulled 35 feet or so), then you can access that end of the wires using plumbers equipment and recover them from that end.

Usually we would have had a pull through rope/wire attached so that we could install the replacement cables. Wasn't there something like that on the end?

Good luck!

Any chemical that eats away the paper will also attack the conduit. It may also corrode the copper wire.

Pull the wires back out through the panel and put them neatly aside. This will make easier pulling later.

Get a substantial plumbers snake, the kind that uses connectable lengths of wire/spring sections. That way you can make the snake as long as you need it. Put a grabber head on it, spiral wound spring with a open end on the leading end. It look sort of like a cork screw. (This is the type that you would snake out a 3" drain pipe with). Temporarily fasten a piece of 3" conduit with appropriate bends to the panel end of the conduit. Put the snake through the temporary guide which is there to keep the snake from kinking. Rotate and advance the snake through until you catch the plug. While rotating in the same direction pull the snake and the plug or part of the plug out. If the whole plug doesn't come out repeat this until all is out.

Just treat the paper plug as you would a large plug of paper and shxt in a drain pipe.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Pull it all out and start over. Lube from the start to finish. Best to use XLPE though.

If you don't get the other three conductors out of the conduit, you are kind of torqued.

At this time, you can only pull the conductors in one direction.

So you have 3 more chances to get another conductor out in one piece.

If you get one more out, hopefully the remaining two will be easier.

At this point you have limited options: you either have to clear the conduit or install a new one.

I would consider borrowing somebody's jeep or truck with a winch on it and pull on one conductor at a time or at least for the first one, the other two may pull out together which would be better to clean out the conduit of leftover debris.

If the winch does not work, turn the vehicle around...get the idea?

I think pulling one at a time would be easier at this point but you could barrow two more vehicles with winches if available.

Just be careful if you have to turn the vehicles around for dual/trio pull, you do not the vehicles to contact each other.

I cannot believe I am recommending this, it sounds like something from Red Neck Island TV show.

But you sound like you are approaching the point of no return, they are wedged now and if you don't get them out you rent a compressor and jackhammer....

That box: "I want to post anonymously" looks more appropriate somehow right now.

how about pouring some drano (sodium hydroxide) down the pipe (mix with water first and follow safety). it will eat the organic material (cloth insulation).

A high pressure water cutter can be used to clear the pipe as a last resort.

Are you sure that you do not have a junction box or other device such as a splice box in the pipe? If so you will have to locate it and dig it up in order to clear the restriction.

I agree with Wwwheaty.

Use more soap, possibly diluted a bit with water and then pour into the conduit and use a vacuum to pull it through the cloth insulation.

You can essentially flood the conduit with a soapy solution and get the other wires out then use a plumbers snake with an auger tip to retrieve the insulation.

After the conduit is cleared of any obstructions, rinse the conduit out with clear water and pull new wires.

One more question,

Is there dirt on the wire you were able to remove. If so, the conduit may be corroded through and open to the earth below the slab?

Good luck

Everyone seems to be assuming that this cloth is what is causing the binding. What if the pipe is partially collapsed and/or now root infested. The bunched up cloth from the pulled cable was just getting caught on the obstruction that has to be cleared.

There comes a point in every project where the initial plan must be modified to complete the task.

Houston, you have a problem.

As I see it, you have three possible solutions.

1. Remove the wire, You might try flexible drill extensions like these (you might have to chain a few together) and a short auger bit like this. Once the wire/insulation is chewed up, you may be able to remove it.

2. Jackhammer up the elbow and replace it (and hope this is where the problem is).

3. Abandon the conduit in place, and run an overhead replacement.

Good morning and thanks for all the tips.

The conduit is in the basement of a two story building on a hill.

The panel we pulled the wire out of is in the center of the building first floor, about 175ft away. All underground fed from a 2000A panel, that we can only shutdown for a day and to penetrate the slab we almost need an act of Congress.

It is in a government building.

Here is a picture of the ONE cable we pulled out.

Accessible ceilings?

In Canada we would abandon the old conduit and run some teck cable, probably along the wall or attached to the ceiling (is the ceiling available?).

In the US they are fond of rigid. So make your choice and get on with it

Would it be possible to provide a rough sketch including the position of the wire for this installation?

Yes I also work in a similar situation. The extensive job off temporary feeding loads so that power shut down can last until the job is complete, may be the only choice you have. I did not catch the reason for pulling out this cable other than it was old. If this feeder shorted inside the conduit, it may have welded itself to the conduit. Another thing that wire pullers do not think about. We call it wire pulling so as to confuse the general public. What you really want to do is draw the cable from the conduit. A drawn cable pull is one that an equal amount of force is pushed at the conduit as is pulled from it. If this is not possible, the results are often catastrophic. As far as a stronger tugger goes, I have used as many as three tuggers in tandem to increase the pulling capacity. Again this will present possible catastrophic results if not properly done. If the ends of your cables are long enough to use the strands of the wire to hook to pulling rope, rather than using a sock or finger. I would try to pull the remainder the cables all at the same time. Good Luck!!! but I'm sure you're screwed.

As it is cloth insulation, perhaps you could put some moths in the conduit.

Seriously, those tuggers use nylon rope if I remember correctly (based on my dad almost losing a thumb when the drum catch failed) is there room and a solid anchor point to use a come along?

What about running a directional drill line parallel to the old pipe and just run the new wires through that. Leave the old wires where they want to stay.

Largest Greenlee tugger made.

Sleeve over conduit with guide pulley.

My idea.

1. Look at building plans and see how conduit was routed, this will tell you length of straight runs and where 90's are at. You said you pulled 35 ft. from on end, subtract 35 from that end to approx its position.

2. Everywhere there is a 90^, there can be a jam, consider cutting thru concrete at (these) points.

3. No plans ? The gas meter man came to my house recently to trace the pipe, he had this gizmo that looked like a box attached to a handle, he traced the pipe no problem thru the slab and under the soil.

Years ago, a customer of mine needed to replace a light on their swimming pool, the wire was cloth backed 12/2 , an old man ( I was a young punk) suggested I tie a wire puller to both ends, this way I could work wire back and forth to loosen it up and use lubricating oil to lubricate the inside of the conduit ( I thought of using soapy water but he said that would cause the cloth to swell) , as I stood on a tall ladder using a funnel and a clear piece of tubing, I poured the oil into the conduit, he worked the wire back and forth and coaxed the wire out of the conduit.

Note: the picture of the guy with the concrete saw reminds me of bikers who run around with skid lids hooked to helmet locks.

As for the" act of congress " thing, somebody in the white house has been doing a lot of stuff recently without paying them no never mind.

Is there some sort of corrosive liquid you can pour in the conduit to reduce the of the insulation debris that remains in the conduit. Let is set over night it might loosen it enough to come out. I am unsure of what would eat the fabric with out generating a lot of hazmat.

Anything that will eat up the insulation will eat up the conduit and wire even faster. Couplings on rigid metal conduit are supposed to be watertight but most aren't unless a special conductive lube is used. The corrosive material will then leak out and eat away the concrete the conduit is encased in. With copper wire, plastic or rubber insulation, galvanized conduit or paper insulation the order of being eaten by the corrosive material would probably be copper wire, galvanized conduit or paper insulation and finally the plastic and rubber insulations. Solvents, especially chlorinated, will most likely make the insulation swell making the job even harder.

Unfortunately the old saying "What goes in must come out" is very true in this case. If it jammed while being pulled in one direction the most likely solution is to pull it out in the opposite direction, just with more pull. There are "split wire pulling grips" that can be put on the wires to accommodate pulling the wires out with extremely forceful effort. https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-cable-pullers/=vuul4y http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/wiringdevices/BuyersGuides/AHBG/N/AHBG-N-27.pdf These are only the most common types. Much stronger ones are also available for this purpose or pulling high voltage wire between towers.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Double rig the cable at the wire end with another pulley.This will double the pull of the existing puller.(Like a block and tackle principle).

Good luck!

Well, did you get it out or not?? Hopefully no one got hurt.

We are going to abandon in place.

Wish I had better news.

Oh well...

Will there be a memorial service?

I think you should still hire a couple of local tweekers. In this video, seems they got pass the elbows in this guy's conduit with no problem!

Something like this:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Mini10m-USB-Endoscope-Inspection-Camera-Waterproof_1897742586.html

would show you what is going on.....

"We are going to abandon in place."

Prolly the simplest course of action.

However...it would have been interesting to knock this out.Most likely,based on what you have already removed,the conductors & insulation moved independently causing the cloth/rubber insulation to bunch up & wedge in tight against the conduit.

A formidable union (bridges are held together with this form of mechanical connection)!

The only solution is to 'undo' the joint.

Possibly a plumber's snake could be utilized to push back (WITHOUT ROTATING),if only slightly, the bundle enough to get the conductors & insulation unwedged or at least reduce the PSI of the wedged bundle.

Pump in some lube.Pumping will be required due to the now restricted access between the conductors.

Some vibration.Use the snake,Again WITHOUT ROTATION to alternately push and pull the bundle.Some vibration applied directly to the conduit could not hurt.

If the lube pump PSI could be monitored & maintained during these processes a clue might be had as to how the bundle is behaving (moving,separating from each other etc.).

If there is any success with the above then re-attaching the snake to an individual conductor,repeating the above processes & then slightly rotating the individual conductor could get you free.

Rinse & repeat as req'd.

I suspect that any kind of camera will show a blob of insulation.

Introducing Any kind of caustic will jeopardize the future conductors as well as anyone working on this project.

J

Wise decision. Good luck with the next one.