Toilet Wax Seal -- Use a Plastic Horn?

Your uneven floor is not good.

Look at this:

below the floor level, and can accommodate fixture and structure movement.
...Fits 3" and 4" drain pipes.
...Adapts to most types of flooring and drain pipes.
...Clean to install, no messy wax.
...Seals on uneven floors or over tile floors with recessed flange.
...Eliminates the need for stacking multiple wax rings on new, raised flooring.
...Can be readjusted during installation.
...Moisture-proof seal and O-ring prevents splash-up and rotting of floor flange.
...Heavy-duty O-ring seals tightly to block sewer gases.
...No minimum temperature required for installation.

(disclaimer: I paid $100.00 to have a new toilet installed in my house. So don't think mine is the voice of experience)

shim it first then the standard wax

Rather than just shim, I would build up the low spots with Bondo. Sand to level it off. Then use whatever works the best with things as they should be.

That's what the wax ring is for, to fill the gaps.....I always use the wax rings with the extension...I've never had a problem with either one....

I agree. The horn type is ok, but you still need a full wax seal. Handy might do a little measuring to make sure the wax ring is thick enough to fill the low point (biggest gap), and that the high point will not prevent the toilet from fully sitting flat on the floor (if it rocks, it will leak, sooner or later). Then let the ring soften, put it on the toilet, make sure to set it straight down over the bolts onto the flange (no sliding), rock it back and forth just a little while pressing down until the toilet sits flat on the floor. Don't use the bolts to pull it down - you're sure to break the porcelain! Use them to hold it down and prevent rocking.

I agree, plus how uneven could the floor be.... Better check to make sure the floor isn't rotten and about to calapse.

What type of floor substrate do you have, wood or concrete slab? Being 1/4" out front to back, with a wood floor you might have a broken hanger from corrosion and should replace it. Or if it's concrete, the flange was set on an early Monday morning and the plumber was hung over. Either way you should try and square it up the best you can, that's your main connection to the abyss! If there is any type of "rocking" taking place then your wasting your time and money by not fixing it right the first time.

I have set more toilets than I'm willing admit to, didn't like then and still don't like doing them now, but what really pi$$es me off, is to have to go back and redo it a second time!

I still prefer a wax ring with the plastic horn, they are more forgiving than this new crap on the market.

Do it right the first time and be done with it! (even if you have to crawl under the house to fix a broken hanger)

Either use a wax ring with the plastic horn or stack two wax rings on each other or stack a wax ring on a plastic horn with wax. This will fill the gap. After doing that, level the toilet by the mounting bolts or at least several narrow shims or wedges in addition to using the mounting bolts. Next make a mixture of "plaster of paris" and force it between the floor and the bottom of the toilet. Try to force it in as far as possible. As the plaster of paris hardens, but not fully hardened, pull out the shims/wedges and fill those voids with the plaster of paris. This will support the toilet in the level position. This latter part should always be done when installing any toilet to keep it level and also to keep moisture or little critters from getting in/out of the outer space between the toilet bottom and the floor and also the wax ring and the room area. Lastly it looks much better than a gap there.

Good Luck, Old Salt

No disrespect, but a bathroom floor is the last place I'd use plaster of paris being water soluble, he'd be better off with a grout mortar if the gap is that bad. Stacking 2 wax rings together, he'll have wax coming out of the mounting holes and out from under the toilet too! They do make an over size ring that is about 1 1/4 thicker than standard, but even those will have wax coming out the mounting holes and a mess to clean up.

This doesn't directly effect the use of the wax ring, but if it is of interest to anyone, there is a normal distance for the toilet to be mounted from the wall called "the backset". I don't know if it is in the plumbing codes but this is it. The majority of all toilets, especially new construction, have a mounting distance of 12" from the wall to the mounting bolts coming through the mounting flange ring for the toilet

There are 10" units available primarily for renovations when there has been a substantial number of layers of the inside wall that reduce the backset distance. Another is when areas are tight and additional space in the room is needed. There are also 14" backset toilets available for the few installations that need a longer backset. These would primarily be older work or after the removal of several layers of walling.

!2" backsets are the most often used size. 10" is the next popular size and the 14" is seldom used. Next time you visit the big orange box look in the toilet aisle. Almost all will be 12", followed by 1 or 2 styles in 10" and 1 or none of the 14".

If you are replacing a toilet as part of a renovation project or another reason, see if you can change the rough-in to 12" simply because they are easier to find and find parts for them. That is not to say you should make a big project of changing it, just for more convenience in the future. If you are in a one toilet house forget about it, a quick replacement is always needed.

Good Luck, Old Salt

I don't understand why this is required distance, as long as there is room for the tan. I also think the tank should be stabilized against the wall, but toilets are nor designed for that. The bowl to tank point should be more sturdy. There should also be wider bases with provision to bolt them down to the floor. If I was designing the toilet from the ground up, that's what I think they should have.

I've also recently saw at Lowes a new toilet design that has a wide smooth base that looks like it is much easier to keep clean. There are small covered ports on the sides to access and hide the mounting studs. The rest of the base is a massive smooth curved base.

12" was picked for standardization within the industry. There are a multitude of problems if each manufacturer was left to pick the setback for their products. It would be harder to find suitable replacements with the same backset. This would also make toilets much more expensive. The differences in backsets are achieved by changing the bowl and not the tank. The distance from the mounting bolts and the tank mounting hole are either reduced by 2" or increased by the same amount.

If a toilet bowl and tank are installed correctly there should be very little movement between the bowl and the tank. Also a flange to bowl connection creates a much better seal than from the bowl to the floor. Tanks are designed to sit up against the wall, not be mounted to the wall.

Also, what is the cost of that fancy toilet at Lowe's?

Good Luck, Old Salt

Sani Seal does make a back brace for the tank to the wall to stabilize the tank the web site is in my earlier post.

A properly installed toilet will not have any gaps such as this! Level the floor first, then install the toilet with a wax ring - with or without the flange, but level the floor first!

Yes, under ideal conditions the floor should be leveled, if the off level is too much for a good installation. BUT-- how many houses have a floor that can easily and quickly be replaced/repaired. For any older houses that can take up much time and money. If the floor is not level, do single bath houses go without a toilet till the floor can be leveled? Settling of a house, even newer ones, can also cause unleveled floors just as they create cracks in the sheet rock, spackling joints and in plaster walls. Put one in until conditions are right for fixing the floor.

What is the family with several children in younger ages to do if the toilet bowl breaks and the floor is somewhat unleveled at the toilet area of a single toilet house? One thing that put 2 toilets on my "must have list" when buying any house is the experience of growing up in a one toilet house with other siblings. More than a few times the tree out in the back yard was used when the sister was taking a shower!

Good Luck, Old Salt

There's one more thing to add to my previous post and that is, do not caulk the base of the toilet with any sealer! Water seeping out from under the toilet is the first sign of a bad seal. Caulking the base may look pretty but will cost you major expense to repair the water damage.

If the floor is level and the pipe flange is set properly you shouldn't need any caulking around the base.

That's my 2¢ worth

Use a neoprene seal instead of wax ring. I find they are more forgiving of variations like this- just make sure to get the size that will compress all around without being too thick.

Use a wax ring. They are available in different thicknesses. Use a medium if the flange is 1/4 below on one side. Whether you use a plastic horn is your choice. It will not help the seal, it will just enable you to do a visual to help guide it in. The horn is not strong enough to guide the horn by feel. Most plumbers can eyeball the toilet as the set it but many amatuers will miss. I put a 2x at the front and back of the toilet and when I get it in line, I put blue masking tape to mark end and sides, then lift and have my wife push the 2X's out of the way and lower it to the flange. Don't use any filler to raise the flange and don't use the neopream type, that will just induce leaks. If the flange and pipe is secure, the flange could be removed and replaced. U-tube will give you the procedure, but that is better to use a plumber for.

Gentlemen there is a new technology out there that you may not have seen or heard about. It is a silicone ring that is made to take care of these issues and is reusable if you need to take up the stool for tile changes that the wife demands in the future. It has been featured on This Old House and many other DIY sites. It is called Sani Seal You can check it out on the web at www.sanisealgasket.com. .It can be used in hot and cold environments,and in residential or commercial environments. they also have other products for the other problems that arrive with the toilet such as the tank that needs support or bangs on the wall they make a brace system that will reach out and support the tank against the wall. I just saw that product while I was in their office a few weeks ago I am not sure if it is on the marked yet but I know it is in the works, as well as tank cleaners and bowl cleaners. I know that several of the big box stores are now carrying his product. Warning if the ring is not green it is a copy, as one big box tried to have their product copied to side step the real manufacturer the missed one step that makes the ring not deteriorate. Theirs will deteriorate in months without the last process done here in the U.S..So if it is not green or have the name Sani Seal don't be taken in on it being a similar product. I have used them and my daughter uses them all the time as a flooring contractor. The time it saves and the mess of using the wax seal is worth it and the cost is almost the same . Plus you get a product that is reusable and no mess. And no I don't own stock in the company. It is a company of a Plummer and an Idea's man with capitol to get it to market, and I just happen to do some work for them from time to time.

If you cant re-level the floor maybe you can adjust the house to the off kilter of the flange ! Seriously1/4" ? Slap a ring on that thing, horned rings are usually used when flange is set be low floor level and with some wood floors, plain wax can be used when flange is even with floor. Since you did not include a picture of the floor, the 1/4" offset, the flange or the toilet, it is really difficult to provide information with any degree of accuracy.

Thanks folks for the great perspective and useful details. The floor is concrete (basement level). The floor slopes roughly 1/8"+ toward the front of the bowl. The flange and the waste pipe are cast iron. The floor slope adds one more variable to the 1/4"+ back to front slope on the flange. I think the original installer was trying to match the floor slope when they allowed the flange to slope. Thanks for responding!

I offer three options, based on my experience. (which is completely "amateur". "Amateur" as in never having done it for money.). Feel free to offer snarky criticisms. I expect it here. Hopefully some of them will actually be constructive.:

1. Hire a plumber to do it right,. The $100 you save in doing it yourself can potentially cause $1000 damage if you screw it up. Plumbing doesn't seem like rocket science, but never begrudge a good plumber those ridiculous rates. That said, I never use a plumber.

2. Use the wax ring. Carefully put the ring in place, endanger your back by lifting the 60 lb toilet up with your legs straddled over it. Focus your telepathic x-ray vision on the ring that you can't see, slowly lower the toilet onto the drain, destroying the ring as you do so because it isn't centered right and one of those damn bolts pops loose. Cuss like a sailor as you raise the toilet back up. Clean off the wax mess from the toilet and the drain. (The wax on the floor has mysterious black crud in it because you didn't clean and sterilize it before you started. (The wax on the floor has mysterious black crud in it because you didn't clean and sterilize it before you started. Don't even think about what that stuff is.). Go get one of your spare wax rings that you have out in the shop.(You do have spare rings, right?). Take it out of the box and realize it has melted in the summer heat since you purchased it. Go back to the store and buy a new wax ring(and some spares). Start over. Repeat as needed.

I have used the rings with the thin plastic horn and have had no problems with them.

3. The last time I went to buy wax rings, I saw a new fangled bright green foam rubber ring. It fits over the bolts to center it, is reversible for oversize use, and is infinitely reusable.(in the sense that you can lift the toilet back off and fix the bolts a couple times if necessary, but I wouldn't want to reuse it in a reinstallation after use, ewwwww!)

Additional comments: Make sure the mounting ring (I forget the name for it. It's one of those words they made up in the medieval times when they made up funny names for things. It will come to me as soon as I hit the post button.) is in good shape(perfect levelness is not that critical) and can take the tension of the bolts enough to hold the toilet down tight against the floor. Make sure the floor is rock solid enough to hold the weight of the toilet and whatever weight will be resting on it. Those two bolts are the only thing holding the toilet down and someone putting their weight on it and shifting from side to side exerts a lot of force on it. (When will they design toilets to have better bolt downs?) If on a wood frame floor, if there is any flex at all in the planks or joists, add in some cross pieces between the joists, or some other reinforcement to firm it up.

To install the bolts into the keyhole slots, thoroughly clean out all the old wax from the keyholes, slide in the bolts, locate precisely by dry fitting, then putty them in place with latex putty, silicone or some old (clean) ring wax to prevent shifting. This will be hard to clean out later, but will prevent any of those starting over problems mentioned above. Better yet, just use that foam ring mentioned in step 3 above.

The 'Plastic horn' is a wonderful aid in lining everything up corectly, since the wax wing is attached to the underside of the toiled, and the horn lets you 'feel out' the mounting flange before committing yourself to placement by putting the weight of the throne on the ring.

'Professional' plumbers may dislike it for various claimed reasons, most covering for the fact that the horn assists the ameteur plumber or homeowner in getting a toilet seated properly on a level floor with a properly installed, unbroken, and level flange. without the assistance of the 'professional' plumber. The pros see it as a 'crutch,' and prefer to use their skill honed by long experience of doing it wrong as a Plumber's Assistant (or Apprentice) and having to redo it, over, and over.

When there are problems, such as an uneven floor, an improperly installed or damaged flange, the horn will help a homeowner THINK they've done it right, but it won't fix the underlying problem.

a quarter inch difference back to front? That may or may not be a problem, I'm not sure(1), If I were standing there, and I did not want to consult with a professional plumber on the matter(2), I would probably do an experiment, setting the (factory-clean)(3) bowl with the wax ring and horn, then surrounding the base with paper towels, and going into the unfinished basement(4) and setting a white canvas dropcloth under the toilet's drain pipe, then pouring in water with blue food coloring until it triggers the siphon action. I would repeat this an additional 2-3 times, after each time checking the paper towels and dropcloth for any trace of blue water. If there is no leakage, I'd consider the toilet 'good enough,' and finish it by mounting the tank.

Notes:

1. I'm a lot happier with things that are 'clearly yes' or 'obviously no.' 'Maybe-yes, maybe-no's' force me to gamble on the outcome, and usually I do not like having to put up the stakes for that wager.
2. Since I have an uncle who is a Union plumber, I can get this sort of consultation 'for free,' since he gets his computer support from me 'for free' in return. You know how family can be.
3. Since the experiment could cause flooding, I want to minimize the concentration of 'black water' I'll be dealing with. It's bad enough that the water becomes 'black water' once it touches the drain pipe, but it's better than working with 'black water' in the bowl.
4. If the underside of the toilet plumbing is concealed within a finished ceiling, I'm not even going to run the experiment. Blackwater leaks into enclosed, concealed places are just the thing to start off a colony of the dreaded Black Mold. If I can't monitor the whole drain, I'm calling a plumber and that's that.
   

It may help to look at it from another perspective, remember when you graphed linear equations ? A parallel line across the bolts would be x, and y would be top to bottom through the 0 intersect, transpose the graph to 3D, the ring is approx. 1" , the inset on toilet flange is approx. 1" , you know the rise is 1/4", so work your equation to determine if the run will work with the offset. One of the engineers here should know how to create the proper equation. That foam ring that was mentioned here (?) That foam ring is to be used between a toilet bowl and a toilet tank, not to be used in place of a wax ring.

The foam sani-seal is for the floor drain, not the tank.

Handy,

Do yourself a BIG favor and unsubscribe from this misguided thread, full of personal opinions and contradictory "advice".

We have done it again.

In our collective zeal to prove to you that we all know best, we surly have only confused you to no end.

Try these:

• TOILET Removal & Installation & Wax Ring Replacement ...
  
• How to Install a Toilet: the Wax Ring - YouTube
  
• Replace a Toilet Wax Ring - Lowe's
  
• How to Remove and Replace a Toilet : How-To : DIY Network

The big problem I see is that a simple plumbing question got in the hands of engineers . . . .
BIG PROBLEM!

Being no plumber I would still opt for a seal for this application . . .

ha,..... it could be worse...

where's a good accountant when you need one.

Or, a lawyer.

I was a plumber that did many trim jobs in multi million dollar condo's and luxury housing. What you are talking about is the flange is uneven. I can tell you this unless the flange is bolted down and crooked it isn't going to make a difference. I always tried to use "can't leak" toilet wax rings. The reason many people say don't use them is they don't understand the reason for the plastic. It is easier to line up when the average person puts a toilet down. It also extends past the flange into the pipe a bit and this is the reasoning for it leaking less.

This is the ONE reason not to use a plastic can't leak wax ring. Some of the can't leaks actually have a shelf inside of them in which waste can get caught up in. If you open your wax ring and see anything other than a smooth plastic cone that tapers this would be the one you would not want to use.

Also when you tighten the bolts on the flange it squishes out the excess wax. Placement is important, line it up over the bolts before placement, angle less important. Your horizontal pipe is held under the concrete by the dirt that was bedded in on top of it if its in a non basement system such as in Florida unless your in a stilt house. It keeps the flange more or less stable. Tightening the toilet to the flange it will pull up towards the toilet. Do not tighten one side all the way then the other. You will break the toilet, same for when you install the tank unless its a one piece. The toilet will not be crooked unless the floor is crooked, use a level while tightening. Once you cant move the toilet side to side with a slap it is more or less stable and maybe a quarter turn after that. You don't want the toilet to rock back and forth. And after tightening if it does shims are required, and if after placement its so crooked your going to slide off. I used to use lead flashing from the roof boots but whatever you can find that will not deteriorate under water to shim, keep using the level. Use Grout on Tile to support the toilet, use Caulk on Linoleum, caulk wont keep a toilet from rocking so make sure it is shimmed 100 percent so it doesn't rock. If the bead on the toilet is more than 1/4 inch I would reevaluate replacing the flange unless its because someone inebriated poured and finished the concrete.

Now 1/2 inch is too much to be crooked and you would have to either rent a drill and a circular cut off tool (abrasive blade on a long bit with a rubber wheel on the end) if you have enough room from the horizontal for a coupling and a new flange or cut the flange off the vertical pipe by hitting the outside with a hammer and then the part left on the pipe you would need to put a slot in it 1/2 wide using just a hacksaw blade in hand and chip that 1/2 off with a screwdriver and then peel the rest off which would be an invite for leaks if you were not skilled in PVC on the spot engineering. At that point you would trim the pipe through the floor with a sawsall so it was lower than original and install a new flange. Hopefully no one used cleaner on the flange or the removal is more difficult.

As I just had to do this about 2 weeks ago at my work I had to do a bit of Macgyvering to get it right.

The standard wax ring states on the package that up to 3 wax rings can be used to accomplish the seal. I however in all my construction have never used more than 2.

If the gap is large enough for 3 wax rings then I would re-plumb the flange to meet the floor level.

Which is what I did for my work. I then used 1 wax ring with a "horn".

I used a concrete 2 part epoxy to level the flooring gap. Yes it is expensive stuff but I was under a time constraint and we have cases of the epoxy that we needed to use before its expiration.

The correct installation is the one that meets or exceeds the building code and fixes the problem.