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Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 2 (Final)

Posted August 24, 2009 11:35 AM by april05

In part one, I detailed being confronted with an accidental climate change debate at a local college in Troy, New York. A comment by the presenter - a PhD level tribologist at a local research company - got me to imagine, in a John Lennon sort of way, how things might have been different for controlling climate change over the past thirty years or so if the majority of politicians in the U.S. - at all levels of government - had had an engineering or science background, instead of a legal one.

In this last part, I'm demonstrating from personal experiences during and after engineering school - 1990 and beyond - how my own behavior and that of a company I worked for has been guided - to a certain degree - by a fear of lawyers and their possible actions. To be clear, it's not the law that myself and folks I've worked with have been fearful of, but instead, those who both make the law and are lawyers. I've always had respect for the law, as have the majority of the folks I've worked for over the years.

My idea is that, beyond being responsible for inaction on climate change, lawyers may also be impacting on the innovation of engineers generally, and holding American companies back at a time when they should be pushing forward with new products and ideas. At the same time, I'm also trying to demonstrate the positive side to lawyers in my experiences with them over the years, to try and be fair.

While using Google to check my work on part one, it was so very nice to stumble upon an Internet article published this year from respected U.K. publication The Economist.

The author of the April 16th piece - who's name was likely revealed in the print version but not on the web - supported with data and graphs the assertion made by the tribologist who inspired me to write part one. The Economist author called the idea of lawyers crafting legislation that wasn't as rational - that's how I'd call preserving our planet - as laws that might have been crafted instead by engineers and scientists, selection bias.

After explaining selection bias, The Economist author then went on to present 2009 global statistics of the most common professions for politicians worldwide, by percentage. Engineering was ranked at about 7%, while Law was ranked at about 19% - almost three times. A world-wide problem of irrational lawmaking!

<-- My wife and I are long-time fans of the American Law & Order television series.

Sam Waterston plays Jack McCoy, a highly ethical and much respected District Attorney. This and other images courtesy Wikipedia.

Within the U.S., the statistic was even worse - less than 5% percent of politicians have an engineering background, while approximately 45% have a legal background!!

Engineering School Memories
My earliest "adult" experience with the legal profession was asking for help in reducing the penalty for a speeding ticket acquired while driving the great distance between Albany and Potsdam, New York - a pre-cell-phone, four-to-eight hour drive through the Adirondacks. The length and pleasure of this trip - which I repeated frequently while attending Clarkson University in the early 90's - strongly depended on the weather, and the frequent snow storms that blanket northern New York.

My counsel - a personal friend and member of Albany's O'Connell and Aronowicz law firm at the time - did a good job, and helped me to get the fine reduced. What I remember most about this experience are the cigars my friend and his lawyer friends enjoyed smoking, and, of course, the expense of hiring a legal counsel. In addition to my own fear of it, my employers' fears of expensive legal billing was something I then witnessed over and over again at the companies I worked for after graduation from engineering school.

An Engineer works with a Lawyer at an Injection Molder
Fast forward to 1995, and I had an opportunity to work as an engineer at a small - less than $10 Million per year at the time - plastics & high-technology composites factory in Upstate, New York, about an hour south of Albany.

Among other costs, electricity to power molding machines was a major expense to ownership. In order to bring costs down, a per machine estimate of power usage was required for each piece of machinery - from Comet molding machines to Brown & Sharpe screw machines to the PC's I had brought out onto the shop floor. I came in on a weekend, armed with my camera and a spreadsheet, ready to record serial numbers, manufacturer names, and power usage information available on metal plates.

It was a lawyer practicing in Hudson, New York that I reported my information to, taking direction from ownership. I can't really say I was intimidated during this experience, but I did realize at the time that the law firm we were working with was vital to my company. Advice was heeded and kept my company profitable during the go-go late nineties, a time when work for engineers in my area - fasteners, injection molding and machining - exceeded those available to perform it.

Hope for the future? U.S. Representative Paul Tonko, 1971 Clarkson University graduate in Mechanical and Industrial Engineering. -->

The Go-Go Late 90's - Why Risk It?
So collaboration with my usually better-dressed legal colleagues on saving energy costs was relatively low-fear. However, during the same period, I noticed my company would not quote on jobs where our manufactured products would be used in human medical applications.

Our products - polymer fasteners available in thousands of possible grades and sizes - both machined and injection molded - were cutting-edge, and many of the big players in the semiconductor and military worlds - companies like Hewlett Packard, Submicron, Verteq, the U.S. Army and Navy, and so on - were big customers. Without it ever being explicitly stated, it was obvious that we stayed clear of human medical applications because of the potential for company-killing law suits. After all, if business tied to the rapidly expanding PC purchases of the late 90's was profitable, why risk a good thing?

- Larry Kelley

Resources:

The Economist - April 2009 - There was a lawyer, an engineer and a politician...

Selection Bias formally defined - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias

Congressman from New York's 21st district - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Tonko

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#1

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 2

08/25/2009 5:48 AM

Sorry, I'm either missing something, I read too quick, or the writing is bad.
You reported the power usage of the machines to this lawyer...and????

Hiring a lawyer to reduce a speeding fine???
What was the fine and how much did the lawyer cost... ok if you got the lawyer free because he was your mate...but otherwise it doesn't sound cost effective.

I havn't actually read anything where the lawyers contributed...

You need a lawyer to tell you not to go into the medical sector??? Oh puhlease
(Sorry if I've missed the point or I'm beeing too grumpy...I am a cat and it is raining)
Del

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 2

08/25/2009 9:10 AM

Hi Del - thanks for your feedback - your comments are on-target and consistent with my wife's. Will re-tool my article today to make it clearer.

In part 2, I'm trying to detail my personal experiences working with lawyers - good and bad - and how they impact on product and business decisions made at manufacturing companies that engineers work for.

I reported power usage information to the law firm in Hudson. As I recall, the law firm I worked with, in-turn, applied for discounts or subsidies with our electric power supplier and/or with the local government in Columbia County, New York. I wasn't personally involved with that part. Pretty sure we were located in what New York State calls an "economic development zone", and so we may have qualified for state credits at the time.

As far as my speeding ticket goes: I can't remember the exact amount of the fine, but because I was in school and on a tight budget, it was a lot relative to the amount of money I had at the time. Maybe $200 - $300. There was the initial fine plus the additional money I would have needed to pay over time, related to an increased insurance premium. Since my lawyer represented me, I didn't need to show up in traffic court and was able to use the time instead for studying. Point is, the entire legal system was intimidating to me personally, and my fear motivated me to to hire someone from that same system to defend myself. This engineer feared lawyers.

Your comment on the medical sector - yeah, that's a no-brainer, and the president of my company - an engineer who's dad was also an engineer/master machinist - figured that one out by himself, without the need for expensive hourly legal billing. But I remember receiving frequent RFQs for human medical applications in the late 90's, and we could have made profit from those customers. We did, however, pursue animal surgery devices. Point is, fear of lawyers - and the law suits they bring - guided the decisions we made.

- Larry

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#5
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Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 2

08/25/2009 9:24 AM

Ta for the update, glad you didn't think I was just being a ar$e
Del

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#6
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Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 2

08/26/2009 3:17 AM

Please let me know if I write anything as terribly.

I have written things that were entirely incomprehensible, but I was on drugs.

Hey, I'd fallen a floor and landed on concrete!

I ought to get the posts off my site, but they are really weird. I mean they are incomprehensible, as if a stranger wrote them. Like a combination insect robot incarnation of me wrote them.

Otherwise, typically I make some sort of sense.

The writing is bad.

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#7
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Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 2

08/26/2009 9:29 AM

Hi Transcendian -

Re-tooled my writing one more time - thanks for your feedback.

But what do you and other folks think about my central idea?

Would climate change had been addressed in the 1990's if the U.S. Congress had more engineers and scientists representing us - say 40% instead of 5%?

Or are you fine with our tradition of having so many folks with legal backgrounds representing us?

Do you think a Scopes Monkey-type trial debating climate change is warranted, or would a trial be another example of the legal community having us ignore 30 years of scientific data that, as rational and responsible American citizens paying attention to the science, we should have acted on long ago?

- Larry

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Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 2

08/26/2009 10:07 AM

I certainly don't fear lawyers as such, I fear the gross misscarriages of justice they purpotrate.
There was a famous case in the UK where a woman went to jail for 'murdering her child' a second 'cot death' Eventually she was released and the verdict overturned. Any lawyer who knew even the barest minimum about statistics could have torn the prosecution's 'expert' to shreds (he was later discredited).
The 'experts' assertion that a second 'cot death' is less likely than the first is glaringly flawed, (he said it was some stupid figure like a million to one) especially if there is an undiagnosed underlying cause which could be inherited.
Any decent lawyer would have pulled out a coin from his pocket, flipped it, asked the probabily of heads, or tails.... flipped it again and asked the probability of the same result. (50-50 of course)
I'm not sure I'd trust a lawyer to represent me if a prison cell was a possible outcome....

Del

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#2

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 2

08/25/2009 7:29 AM

I also could not understand head and tail of this article.As I being engineer have fought legal battle for my company and won the case, so I was keen to read this article but I am sorry it is not informative.

Suresh Sharma.

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#3
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Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 2

08/25/2009 8:54 AM

Either I totally missed the point of this post or it was totally uninformative!

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