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Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

Posted August 10, 2009 9:52 AM by april05

Watching stimulus money in action is fascinating. Or so I thought while watching a February PowerPoint slide-show detailing how tribological research, done by an Albany, New York area company, could improve energy efficiencies of compressors, pumps, and other heavy mechanical machinery, and reduce carbon emissions contributing to climate change. The slide show was put on by a PhD-level executive and mechanical engineer who's worked in the U.S. energy industry since the 1970's.

An Inconvenient Slide Show

<-- The trend here is obvious and disturbing. This and other images courtesy Wikipedia.

Then things got really interesting when a version of an often debated slide – seen and debated more than a few times here in CR4 (example) - as well as in Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth – was put on the conference-room screen.

A climate-change skeptic member of the audience and fellow mechanical engineer claimed the presenter was not showing the entirety of the graph, and had the presenter done so, his thesis that climate change is happening would be shot.

What if the world were ran by Engineers?
The presenter, who, for full disclosure, I happened to agree with, went on to defend his thesis. Without saying it explicitly, he made the point that much of the skepticism that exists in the engineering and scientific community, and with the wider public at large, is the result of a deliberate effort of vested carbon-producing interests in the U.S. Congress.

<-- Fred MacMurray, who played Aerospace Engineer Steve Douglas on the early 1960's American TV series My Three Sons.

This show was popular when I was envisioning a future career for myself in the 60's and early 70's. Its lead character was a TV-engineer "role model" I personally took inspiration from.

Inspiration also came from the Apollo astronauts. They too were TV personalities that inspired me and the engineers I went to school with.

Are there as many engineer role models on TV today, or are science careers now out-of-fashion for TV characters to inspire young Americans?

Our presenter, a PhD-level researcher and recipient of ASME's prestigious Mayo D. Hersey Award for outstanding contributions to the advancement and science of tribology, then went on to point out that the vast majority of the members of Congress are lawyers, with a primarily legal, and not technical, background.

His unstated point was that if this were reversed, and Congress was composed mostly of engineers and scientists, then much of the skepticism about climate change would disappear. After all, Germany, a country that produces 46% of its energy from renewables, is led my Angela Merkel, a PhD in Physical Chemistry.

College Training Differences?
Could this be why climate change is still an issue in the U.S., I thought?

After all, way back in 1992, myself and a classroom of graduate-level mechanical engineers at Rensselaer Polytechnic were doing calculations from a Scientific American coursebook that confirmed, yes, climate change was happening, and our designs of new internal combustion engines and gas turbines should take this into account.

My own engineering training was filled with "do-no-harm" to people considerations. Safety factors for mechanical systems, product life-cycle, mean time between failure, and even the wages paid to production workers were all elements I was trained to consider as I moved forward in my engineering career. Naturally, profitability was also a consideration, but the focus of the bulk of the homework was on design of safe and long-lasting products.

So weren't lawyers receiving similar "do-no-harm" – read environment - training, like me?

Do No Harm (that bothers your legal department)
So has the legal community, having the power of the purse strings, intimidated the engineering and scientific community into accepting junk-science?

Before I lay into my own, slightly intimidating career experiences with the legal folks, I need to point out that it's easy to enjoy a good joke at the expense of lawyers, especially when surrounded by other engineers.

To their credit, I've leaned on lawyers again and again for the most important events in my life. They include an adoption, traffic tickets, home purchases, and real estate advice. I have sincere gratitude for their services, and maintain friendships with multiple lawyers, including a former college roommate and a relative who works in the field. I'm proud to say that my first home was closed on by a pillar of the Albany, New York legal community, a brave man who flew multiple missions with the Flying Tigers in China during World War II.

- Larry Kelley

Read earlier blog pieces by Larry: click here.

Resources:

http://sections.asme.org/hudson-mohawk/notables.html#Heshmat

http://sections.asme.org/hudson-mohawk/2009_Feb_Newsletter_Color_v3.pdf

Further Reading:

The Economist - There was a lawyer, an engineer, and a politician

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#1

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/10/2009 2:57 PM

Nice post and topic moose.

The acceptance of a message certainly depends on the authos of the messenger, so yes, your question makes sense.

But also, it depends on the freedom from bias of those making the claim. I worked for a PHD ecology professor, as lab assistant while in college, and believe me, he definitely had an agenda. Ecology has never been an "open mind" field. These people are all polemicists.

Having seen closed mind, Biased science in action, I remain sceptical. Current Science "shouts down and scolds dissent" rather than allowing the facts to make their points. And the sacredness of assumptions held in models (undisclosed details of course) makes me well, Vomit comes to mind.

Thoughtful piece.

milo

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/10/2009 3:25 PM

Hi Milo - Thanks for your kind comments. I'm the author, but it's a team effort, and Moose and Sharkles are my editors and helped me with this piece. Team credit. :) Will update my tagline soon. - Larry Kelley (aka April05)

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#3
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Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/10/2009 3:42 PM

You know, It didn't seem to be Moose's voice exactly...

milo

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#4

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/10/2009 4:21 PM

Doesn't everyone fear lawyers?

if not, they should j/k

I only really fear them when they happen to not be on my side.... well, hypothetically, since that has yet to happen... But I'm still weary.

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#5

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/10/2009 4:28 PM

I have to agree, Nice post,

I believe that Al Gores involvement as a spokesman GW awareness is all what that is.

The presentation should have stuck to the scientific sources and not refer to A.G.

Back to the point....I have used attorneys........we all have. The difference I believe is when you are a licensed engineer (PE) your licensed can be pulled or revolve by your peers. Same as an attorney.

But how if an engineer really fouls up, as compared to an attorney fouling up. Who is easier to take to court..........and have another attorney represent you against their what I see....brotherhood.

Or is this off topic?

phoenix911

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/10/2009 4:38 PM

Hi phoenix911 - Many thanks to you as well. The presenter at the ASME meeting did not refer to Al Gore specifically, and tried hard to stay clear of controversy. However, most in attendance were able to make the connection, including the skeptics. I think you're right in your analysis. Conflicts of interest are a major part of the problem. This results in the data on climate change are not being interpreted objectively, and folks in the engineering and scientific community not being able to speak openly. - Larry

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#7

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/10/2009 6:58 PM

Garthh and I and some others went around on the subject of governments, bureaucrats and technocrats years ago.

Everybody hates attorneys till they need one.

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#8
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Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/10/2009 9:26 PM

Off the subject, My girlfriends son from a previous marriage (in the military now) was in an car accident, After every thing was settled, 6 months later, an attorney looking for work, contacted one of the passengers and convinced him, he was hurt and deserved more.

Since her son will be going over to Iraq this fall, this attorney wants to settle before his deployment.

We may need these A$$holes, but we don't have to respect them........because they earned their reputation.

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#29
In reply to #8

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/13/2009 6:29 PM

From everything I've been able to find out the real problem with lawyer is too many for too little real work. The oversupply being driven by the universities as the courses are cheap to provide but can be sold and a big margin. Unscrupulous and untalented people gravitate in that direction as it is easier to argue a living than earn one.

My (cynical I know) take is:

Lawyer ..... A fancy way to spell liar.

Judge ......A liar who can't make a living without milking the public purse.

Total failure on all fronts......Politician.

In Oz we too are inflicted with the same liars as politicians and while not yet as bad as the US they are happily playing copycat catchup.

For an illustration look at the studied inaction regarding the Murray Darling basin. More energy is spent attacking the few peolpe actually getting results than anything else.

Two things would probably help, make lawyers liable for their actions (which they are plainly not) and ban them from holding public office.

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#30
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Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/13/2009 10:37 PM

in another thread, I questioned statically, how many people in the general population per attorneys, that would be interesting, 1940, 1950, 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000.

Also interesting, is what type of cases, and how they changed in those years.

The bar revels the freemasons as a brotherhood.

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#9

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/11/2009 12:05 AM

I do not hate or fear lawyers. I am married to one.

However, I do have serious problems with the current climate debate. First of all, the analysis is based on too limited a time scale. Extend the data back 65,000,000 years, and it becomes obvious that the concerns over the effects of climate change are most likely blown way out of proportion, and the resources expended on "corrective" actions would be better directed elsewhere.

1. The climate is changing. The climate has been changing for something like 4.2 billion years.

2. A warmer earth is a good thing, when compared to the alternative.

3. Humans are contributing to climate change. I would be very startled if someone were to "prove" humans did not have an impact on the environment. Every species that has ever lived on earth has had an environmental impact. If humans wipe themselves out, they won't be the first to accomplish this feat.

4. Not all lawyers are created equal, but most of them are trained in methods of presenting information such that it appears to support their position. Some will try to distort facts to enhance their position, but I want to believe these are in the minority.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/11/2009 2:01 AM

There are good lawyers and there are bad lawyers. The problem is that the bad lawyers do far more damage than the good lawyers fix. At some point the lawyers are going to need to realize that they need to police themselves before they have allowed their profession to be destroyed. I have watched as people I consider good lawyers continuously avoid dealing with the issues created by bad lawyers. By doing so they are complicit in the degradation of their profession and regrettably deserve to be labeled with the same degrading remarks as their bottom feeding peers. I honestly wish it wasn't so, but only lawyers have the ability and responsibility to fix the situation.

As a comparison I have never seen an engineer argue for another engineer's right to be wrong. Poor judgment and bad decisions are not acceptable when you are using your knowledge in ways that affect people's lives. For some reason this standard doesn't seem to be applied to lawyers.

As for the climate debate, I happen to agree with several points you made, but strongly disagree with how you seem to be using them. Specifically that you feel that this is blown out of proportion and that corrective actions are a waste of money.

1. I completely agree that the climate has been continuously changing for the entire life of our planet and will continue to do so. The real issue is the scope and speed of the current change. Aside from a few rocks falling from the sky the typical climate change happened over large periods of time. Rapid climate change is what we are creating now and in the past this has always been devastating to the species living on the planet at the time. The last rapid climate change wiped out our nearest cousins, the Neanderthals. That one we didn't create or have any way to prevent, but this one is different. I personally don't want to become a footnote in some future species science books.

2. No, warmer is not much better than colder, both are bad. We aren't talking about turning Boston into the Bahamas, we are talking about turning the Midwest into the Sahara Desert. FYI, that is where we get an enormous amount of the worlds food from. There is also a direct link between environmental disasters of this type and war. Hungry and thirsty people tend to fight. The Pentagon has done significant analysis of what would happen in the case of even moderate environmental changes and their recommendation is that it is cheaper to spend money on the problem now than to have to fund the wars that will happen due to global warming. I guess this is the irony of it all, the weather changes won't kill us, we will kill each other first. (BTW, I never expected the US Military to agree with me on this topic.)

3. 100% agree with you on item 3

I really want humans to grow up and take responsibility for what we are doing to the planet. Here is something to consider when you gauge our impact compared to climate changes over geological history. Over the 65,000,000 years that you spoke of in your post the Earth has been sequestering Carbon in the ground. That Carbon eventually became oil and coal deposits. We are going to release that Carbon back into the atmosphere over a period of roughly 200 years. At least the dinosaurs didn't drop the asteroid on their own heads.

As a species we need to mature. We are treating the planet as if we are some teenager who stole the keys to his dad's restored 57 Chevy and is speeding around town with a backseat full of buddies and a case of beer. The sick thing is we will probably act surprised anything went wrong, just the same as the kid who finds out his friends are dead from the crash.

Sorry for the drama, but this is a point that needs to be made. I want my kids and grandkids to have a chance and to do that we need to make changes as soon as we can. Even if we don't have perfect solutions the act of accepting responsibility for what we have done will give us the opportunity to learn what can do to fix things and hopefully the wisdom to make better decisions in the future.

-Doug

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#19
In reply to #10

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/11/2009 1:06 PM

So, to properly snub coal and gas, I should go home and throw another log on the fire? Hey, just joining my neighbors' hippie-crite effort to do my part for the environment. ;-) This is what they do.

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#22
In reply to #19

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/11/2009 3:00 PM

Honestly the problem with wood burning isn't the CO2 emissions, it is the soot released. Burning wood is relatively CO2 neutral as far as the planet is concerned. The trees suck the CO2 out of the air and turn it into wood using energy from the sun. This wood is later burned releasing the CO2 back into the air in roughly the same quantity. In a roundabout way wood is a form of solar energy. Without getting into questions of deforestation and similar questions wood is almost a step in the right direction, until you get into the question of soot.

The particles released from burning wood are fairly nasty and have been linked to both cancer and an increase in heart disease. The Environmental Protection Agency estimates that wood stoves are responsible for 5% of the smallest, deadliest particles emitted into the environment in the US. Industries that produce similar particles are being forced to clean up their emissions before it goes into the atmosphere, but wood stoves just dump their particles straight into the environment. As a great example of these types of problems take a look at the issues in China from the vast number of households being heated from wood and small coal stoves (same issues).

I grew up in a home that burned wood for heat and find a warm stove to be comforting and cozy, but it isn't a great solution for the environment.

-Doug

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#27
In reply to #22

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/12/2009 11:26 AM

I understand. I was poorly attempting to highlight the conundrum that choosing an "alternative" is sometimes worse than norm; we need to use discretion.

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/12/2009 11:40 AM

I agree and wish more people in the world were voicing their opinions on these issue. It feels like most people just want to stick their heads in the sand and hope it goes away.

I don't ever expect people to agree with me or with each other, but a good healthy debate can usually flesh out the issues. Sometimes this leads to good solutions or changes peoples minds about bad ones. Right now both are important.

Keep on talking about this stuff and hopefully enough people will start listening and expressing their own thoughts. That is when we can start making a difference. :-)

-Doug

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#25
In reply to #10

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/11/2009 10:02 PM

drobertson-

A very astute response to my post. Regarding the climate change of 65,000,000 years ago, just prior to that, and possibly resulting from a shift in the balance between flora and fauna, there appears to have been a significant growth in atmospheric carbon dioxide. The time scale can not be accurately determined from the data that I have seen, but this spike makes today's issue look like noise in the data. I wonder if that spike was due to a sudden expansion of dinosaur biomass?

We are all most likely going to become footnotes to some future species' science books, but not because of climate change. We are going to destroy ourselves through over population and over crowding in urban centers.

Warmer has always resulted in biomass expansion. Colder has always resulted in reduced habitat.

Look at the globe. Most of the real estate is in the northern hemisphere. As the climate warms, the temperate zone, ideal for agricultural expansion, will push northward into areas of Asia and Canada, making even more land available to feed the growing multitudes. Water is another issue...

I do not believe war will be the end of us- war always leaves a few standing. What would be more devastating would be a new plague, easily and rapidly spread through crowded urban centers and between crowded urban centers thanks to modern ease of transportation.

Yes, we need to mature as a species. The only way this can happen is if we can garner a deeper understanding of how the universe works, and how we relate to the rest of it. For instance, denying the concept of evolution is not going to lead us to the Truth (or increase our chances of survival). Recognizing that, as some experts have suggested, up to 1/3 of the increase in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is attributable to land-use changes (clearing forests for agriculture and urban development), would suggest that planting trees may be a good way to combat climate change (while helping to regenerate aquifers)...

Virtually all of the so-called fixes being bandied about by politicians and such appear to me to be very transparent scams to throw money down black holes, with the serious potential of doing more harm than good. How would you feel about sending a ten year old in to a nuclear power plant, letting him tweak knobs and flip switches at random? We know a lot less about how the climate really works than that ten year old knows about the nuclear power plant...

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#11

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/11/2009 3:22 AM

"What if the world were RAN by engineers?". Did no one notice this simple gramm atical error?? "RAN???". R u kidding? I'm pulling my skin off. This ignorance of the past participle has pervaded the speech of the great unwashed... but not our educated engineers! You referred to your "editors". Huh? It was in a sub-heading no less. I can't take it.

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#14
In reply to #11

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/11/2009 8:39 AM

Hi Guest - MS Word didn't see a problem, but I changed "ran" to "run", per your feedback. The subjunctive mood was what I was using there. Many thanks for spotting this. - Larry

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/11/2009 9:25 AM

I'm no English teacher, and I don't know the limits of ms word grammar flagging, and maybe I'm wrong, and yes I am beating a dead horse, but how could a subjunctive mood make the use of "were ran by" correct in any context, if that's what you meant? This is a big deal with me because my 7- and 9-yr old girls are picking this up. I let some mis-speak go but have drawn the line on this one. That you corrected it does restore my soul a bit. -- Gary in LA

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/11/2009 9:57 AM

Hi Gary - Thanks for your comments. I have a five-year old myself, and so I understand where you're coming from. You're probably right, and the subjunctive likely has nothing to do with the verb tense of "ran" vs. "run". I am fortunate to receive the wisdom of the crowd from folks like you, here in CR4. - Larry

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#24
In reply to #15

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/11/2009 8:53 PM

Hi Gary - Did some more checking. Since I was talking about a past that might have been, "ran" was correct, as far as I can tell, for my backward-looking context, and what I was trying to communicate. Sticking to this one for now. Where is WAMC's (Albany, NY public radio) Word for the Wise program when you need it! :) - Larry

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#18
In reply to #11

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/11/2009 12:53 PM

Ran by the e-l-i-t-i-s-t engineers, no less. I am pulling my skin off, too. Not just for grammatical issue(s) but for the idea that I, doing nothing more than leading a quiet midwestern life, is somehow more "greedy" and more "irresponsible" and subject to "rules" than those who jet around the world giving speeches and then - oh, yeah - make up for all that supposedly necessary hot wind by buying back so-called carbon credits from their own carbon credit (read: scam) companies.

Hmmm. Follow the money, everybody. Isn't that what lawyers have historically been accused of doing? And, why "we" have supposedly hated and feared them so much? Well, why should anyone be afraid of the lawyers these days? It's not them lying and robbing us blind.

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#23
In reply to #11

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/11/2009 5:18 PM

keep your skin on Webster

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#12

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/11/2009 5:15 AM

Fear? No.
Despise?...

The problem with Lawyers and the adversarial legal system is that the aim is not truth or justice.

Del

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#20
In reply to #12

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/11/2009 1:10 PM

Yes, Del the cat. Well put. My problem with the false environmentalists is that the aim is not truth or justice or humanity or even the environment. Too sad.

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#13

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/11/2009 5:42 AM

The profession makes its money out of other people's misery.

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#17

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/11/2009 11:59 AM

True, I STRONGLY despise what lawyers are doing these days. Everybody is out to make a quick buck (and lawyers and helping this), resulting in despair of many lives. I can't believe I once considered becoming a lawyer

Either way, I feel mixed about the GW topic. I feel as if it has gotten a lot of press for being, what I feel, as a non man-made shift in the global environment. Sure, I can see the concepts behind how it could be human caused (or provoked), but despite how much oil and how much damage we are doing, the Earth is HUGE and the entity of oil consumption history does not have the time to effect the global climate.

Although I am not a fan of exaggerated propaganda (not meaning to sound harsh), I do thing that it has provided a great use to humanity. I feel as it was a wake up call, to try and live on this Earth with as little impact to other life and the planet's health as possible. Plus, investing in non-renewable resources are not smart anyways...Let's evolve people!

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#21

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/11/2009 2:07 PM

I am mechanical engineer. I don't fear but avoids them, to makes the world is easy with new technology by engineers.

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#26

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/12/2009 10:37 AM

It is partially a matter of understanding. The general public does not understand either, but lawyers do a much better sales job than do engineers. After all, how many TV shows cast lawyers as great heros? And how many cast engineers in the same light?

Sadly, engineers make their stock-in-trade in logic while lawyers do it in emotion and illogic. Engineers say that by doing something specific, one can achieve a specific end. Lawyers tell the public that they, and only they, can ensure that clients get the conpensation "owed" to them for any perceived injustice or injury.

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#31

Re: Do Engineers Fear Lawyers? - Part 1

08/24/2009 1:27 PM

Author's note: Part 2 is now available - click here. - Larry

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