Alternative & Renewable Energy Blog Blog

Alternative & Renewable Energy Blog

The Alternative & Renewable Energy Blog is the place for conversation and discussion about solar power; fuel cells and hydrogen cells; biofuels such as ethanol; wind, water and geothermal energy; and anything else related to renewable power generation. Here, you'll find everything from application ideas, to news and industry trends, to hot topics and cutting edge innovations.

Previous in Blog: Solar Success in Europe   Next in Blog: Nominations Open: the Alternative Energy 100
Close
Close
Close
12 comments
Rating: Comments: Nested

Windpower

Posted April 22, 2010 3:00 PM by april05

Took me a moment to figure out which usage to go with in my title: Wind Power, ala Wikipedia, or Windpower, courtesy Thomas Dolby's song title on his 1982 album The Golden Age of Wireless. Since Mr. Dolby's usage is consistent with GE Energy's, and since I was a massive fan of this album back in the day, I decided on the later.

The point of my bringing up Mr. Dolby's music video is to point out that wind energy is nothing new. This was reinforced when Dr. Bharat Bagepalli, Principal Engineer at GE Wind Energy, provided a facility tour and seminar to the Capital Region engineering community at a March 25th event sponsored by both the Hudson-Mohawk (New York) sections of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) and American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA).

<-- Yale and MIT educated Dr. Bharat Bagepalli has fifty-five U.S. patents and has authored over twenty technical publications. His expertise is with wind-drive system design, optimized for reduced cost of production.

Hudson-Mohawk Engineers Tour Multiple Labs at GE's Energy Learning Center (ELC) Facility

A group I would estimate at fifty strong gathered at the Thursday after-work event on Balltown Road in Niskayuna, at a small complex separate but just down the road from the main GE Global Research campus. The event attracted many local college students and their professors - many already doing Wind Turbine related research - from RPI and Union colleges, early and mid career engineers like myself, as well as retirees and folks from local media (including this blogger). Because of the strong turnout, Dr. Bagepalli and his colleagues were forced to split the group into simultaneous tours of the two major laboratories.

The first laboratory I toured featured a GE-presenter who'd spent approximately twenty years as an enlisted man in the U.S. Navy, primarily servicing mechanical components on submarines. Surrounding his computer, where he was running an informative, GE-themed PowerPoint presentation on an extra-large wide screen monitor, were massive, snow-white in color interface components. Among them were a nosecone large enough for myself and two others to easily stand upright in, and a gear ratioing system allowing for matching between mechanical drive components and the generator. Interestingly, our presenter said that light-weight balsa wood is still a common internal structural material used for support inside composite-material blades. To demonstrate, my group was kindly shown a cross-sectional model.

At the end of the first laboratory tour, our Naval-veteran presenter took questions from my group. When this began, I had knowledge that many folks from CR4 had witnessed with interest Danish mechanical engineers at work on a program from National Geographic channel's Megastructures documentary series. The particular program we witnessed documented integration of wind turbines with a new, twin-tower skyscraper hotel structure in Bahrain. The wind turbine component hardware shown on NatGeo's program was from European-based manufacturers and designers, and not from GE.

With this in mind, while fielding questions from the group, I asked my first presenter if Nordex (Germany) and Vestas (Denmark) were major competitors of his, either in the U.S., Europe or globally. His response was that both Vestas and Siemens were major competitors, with Siemens being GE's primary competitor in Europe.

A separate presenter provided my group with a high-bay area (both labs were high-bay) tour of the second of the two laboratories, containing a wheeled demonstration Nacelle, ready for the highway and a visit to a State Fair near you, and a separate, stationary-controls display. This presenter was an expert in wind turbine controls, and had a deep knowledge of the evolution of GE's control technology dating back to at least the mid-1990's.

Included in that evolution was GE's acquisition of technology from another company that has been much in the news. Mid-career folks like myself in the audience were aware that GE Energy, in a very smart move for its future business, had acquired Wind Turbine assets and technology from, of all companies, Enron.

Believe it or not, Enron had been a pioneering American company in Wind Turbine technology during the 1990's, and installed wind turbines along the North Sea coasts of Holland and Germany that I'd seen with my own eyes in 1997. Recently, I've even had the great pleasure of meeting a former Enron Wind Turbine (mechanical) engineer, and indeed, he was one of the "smartest guys in the room". However, like many, he'd also been badly burned by the scandal at his former employer.

Seminar Begins with a Brief History of Wind Turbines

With tours of the two labs over, attendees gathered in an auditorium that looked much like what you'd see on your local college campus. Dr. Bagepalli began his formal presentation by honoring pioneering-engineers of ancient and modern wind turbine technology: Ancient Middle-Easterners, Chinese and Indians, A Croatian Engineer who was the first to introduce a practical windmill in Europe, Dane Poul la Cour, American Charles Brush (the "forgotten" wind turbine pioneer), and others.

Then began the meat of his presentation. Global wind current patterns and solar insolation were identified as the most important factors in siting a wind turbine field.

The sun's energy interacts with both the Earth's atmosphere and its axial rotational energy. Rotational force acting on the global atmosphere is known as the Coriolis Effect, a concept taught in early physics courses. Dr. Bagepalli identified six discrete rotational cells / fluid-channels, contained within the troposphere, from around the planet. These six channels are useful to decision makers in locating a profitable wind turbine field.

Wind Energy Technical Discussion

"Wind is a mostly Northern and Southern Phenomenon", said Dr. Bagepalli, as he explained optimal siting locations from around the globe. On either side of the equator, from twenty to twenty-eight degrees latitude, is where the sweet spot exists.

Within the U.S., the optimal wind corridor exists starting in the Mid-West in Minnesota, and heading south-southwesterly into Texas and New Mexico. Much of this optimal wind corridor exists on Native American lands.

Mountains have an important effect on optimal wind conditions, as they interact with long-distance wind-current flows and impact the density of air striking wind turbine blades. The condition of the ground also impacts long-distance wind flows, with Dr. Bagepalli pointing out that "sheep are a wind turbine's best friend".

I have plenty of other notes and memories I took that I'm keeping off-line for now, but would be glad to share them via the forum discussion or CR4's private message system for registered users. Wishing all my readers from around the globe a Happy Earth Day 2010!

- Larry Kelley

Resources:

GE Energy Learning Center (ELC) Images: Taken by this blogger, with permission.

ASME Hudson-Mohawk's March Newsletter: http://sections.asme.org/hudson-mohawk/2010_March_Newsletter_v3.pdf

Thomas Dolby's "Top of the Pops" performance on British television, circa 1982: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9i7rWk3jAE

Image, Three Wind Turbines integrated with Dual-Tower Hotel - Bahrain World Trade Center (BWTC): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BWTC

Illustrated View, Generic Triple-Blade Wind Turbine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_Turbine

"Windpower" (no space) usage on a GE Energy web site: http://www.gepower.com/businesses/ge_wind_energy/en/index.htm

Wikipedia's primer on Windpower History: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_wind_power

Reply

Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#1

Re: Windpower

04/23/2010 12:32 AM

How many hectares of land per megawatt of capacity?

Reply
Power-User
Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - BSME Clarkson University 1992 Engineering Fields - Software Engineering - BSME Clarkson University 1992 Fans of Old Computers - TRS-80 - DataRock 1.0

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Troy, NY
Posts: 388
Good Answers: 3
#3
In reply to #1

Re: Windpower

04/23/2010 10:14 AM

Hi cwarner7_11 - great question: Answer depends on the quality of the wind resource for your geographic area. Like Florida in the U.S., Panama may not be the optimal geographic area to locate a Wind Field, since it is so close to the equator. Suggest you review http://www.ge-energy.com/businesses/ge_wind_energy/en/downloads/wind_energy_basics.pdf. - Larry

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 23647
Good Answers: 420
#2

Re: Windpower

04/23/2010 8:12 AM

Its interesting on the layout that it shows the brake on the auxiliary drive and not on the main drive, which I would think be the most advantageous and efficient.

p911

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - Old Salt Hobbies - CNC - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rosedale, Maryland USA
Posts: 5197
Good Answers: 266
#4
In reply to #2

Re: Windpower

04/23/2010 2:46 PM

Just as the gears give up torque for speed. The force need would be lower if placed on that side of the gears. So the brake components made smaller and less expensive. The reduction in size may have all so reduced nacelle size.

__________________
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty, pristine body but rather to come sliding in sideways, all used up and exclaiming, "Wow, what a ride!"
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 23647
Good Answers: 420
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Windpower

04/23/2010 4:26 PM

But the power required to stop is the same,

and the braking force is transfered back through the gears, its the stress on the gears and gear train.

I realize that is only a pictorial, I'm sure the gearing would be helical.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Western Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 761
Good Answers: 9
#6

Re: Windpower

04/23/2010 7:31 PM

I did some work with Iberdrola and Gamesa here in PA.

Need more activity to sate my curiosity.

Inspection of installed and damaged blades root cause shwed some interesting findings,

Attached are a couple of generic pix.

Typical Storage Yard:

Typical Shipping Rack:

Closeup of a repair: I am very concerned about the vibrations and harmonics causing cracks and delaminations of the carbon composite blades;

Typical Blade Tip: So fragile.

Reply Off Topic (Score 3)
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#7
In reply to #6

Re: Windpower

04/23/2010 8:24 PM

I'm not sure why your post was marked off topic- it most definitely contains information that should be available to those that are interested in wind energy conversion, and this is the sort of information that is generally not provided by the advocates.

My understanding is that there has been some improvement in blade design, with attention to the harmonics. I also understand that the major failure mode off shore (Netherlands) has been failed transmissions, most likely resulting from harsh environmental effects- i.e., salty air causing corrosive attacks on the metals used. Apparently, they were only getting about 18 months of operation before requiring major overhaul- which means, essentially, removing and replacing the entire unit. There have been efforts here in Latin America to market some of the reconditioned turbines...

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Western Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 761
Good Answers: 9
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Windpower

04/23/2010 8:40 PM

Thanks for the comment, I decided to post it off topic because GE is headquartered near CR4 and I visited the plant their as a tourist.

I won't take a stance yet, because I believe all forms or alternative energy have to be given a chance. I sort of like tidal power more than wind, and as you know there are many great vids on both YouTube and Flixxy showing a lot of different ideas.

I have a dear friend in Kuala Lumpar, Shazirat, who is an architect. Her speciality is sustainability and we toss ideas off of each other constantly.

I might try to get her to join the group.

Reply
3
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Windpower

04/23/2010 8:52 PM

I am actively promoting a tidal power system here in Panama- currently, most alternatives that have been explored for major generating facilities are disappointing (wind, solar), so Panama continues with hydro and thermo-electric (diesel/bunker). Hydro is not as environmentally friendly as the advocates would have you believe, especially here in the tropics- an analysis of four of the latest new hydro projects here in Panama yielded the result that one needs to destroy about 5 hectares of rain forest for every megawatt of power generating capacity, which is better than wind (50 hectares per megawatt) or solar (20 hectares per megawatt), but, when one considers the impact on the water cycle (destroying forests results in a loss of ability to capture and store water in subterranean aquifers, and contamination of surface waters), repurposing the land for power generation starts looking a whole lot more expensive. Granted, any effort to extract energy from the environment is going to have some sort of impact, but all indications are that tidal or wave energy schemes minimize this impact, and do not require any significant repurposing of valuable real estate to accomplish...

Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Western Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 761
Good Answers: 9
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Windpower

04/23/2010 9:32 PM

As an old Mother Earther, I dabbled in Solar, Water, and Methane Generation back in the 1960s and 1970s. I am a fan of small, but realize that the frantic pace and needs of most people today make it too much of a burden for them. My grandson and I are in the process of building a scale model overshoot water wheel with attachments for sawing wood and a grist mill. I am amazed at the pictures of the old mills powered by water with belts all over the place running machinery. In our case, we planned shafts with simple universal joints to power our tools (mostly for the wow factor at the school science fair).

Keep us informed about your tidal power generation efforts and if you ever need an intern for room and board in a few years, I might consider.

Reply
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Windpower

04/23/2010 10:58 PM

Current status of the project is, we are trying to raise seed money to complete some surveys to confirm that the site we have identified is appropriate. Once this has been accomplished, we will have sufficient information to put together a business plan that should attract investors.

What we are trying to do is combine both in-stream and barrage systems, utilizing a hydraulic subsystem, to mitigate the periodicity of power availability- power 24/7. Preliminary assessments says we can get about 5 MW out of the sight without exceeding the industry guidelines of extracting more than 15-20% of the available power. Also, our preliminary analysis says we can build this for about what a similarly-sized conventional hydro facility would cost (as long as you consider the cost of the real estate for the conventional hydro facility). Downstream maintenance costs are, of course, much higher, resulting in the cost of electricity being about double what one would expect from conventional hydro, but significantly less than what one would expect from diesel, wind, or solar.

If all goes well, we could be producing electricity within 5 years...After we raise our seed money...

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Western Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 761
Good Answers: 9
#12

Re: Windpower

04/24/2010 8:09 PM

Here are some pix of one of one the designs I consider fascinating:

The Tornado.

Why is not more of this promoted in the west as it is in the Mid and Far East?

I have collected a couple of hundred pix of these designs, just fascinating.

Since my grandson and I have building working models of ancient power sources, I can't wait to get him involved in concepts like this.

Enjoy the pix.

Thanks for viewing.

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Reply to Blog Entry 12 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

april05 (1); cwarner7_11 (4); ozzb (1); phoenix911 (2); qaqcpipeman (4)

Previous in Blog: Solar Success in Europe   Next in Blog: Nominations Open: the Alternative Energy 100

Advertisement