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Age: A Factor?

Posted October 19, 2010 7:59 AM

One entrepreneur/educator says that while Silicon Valley companies don't want it known, they prefer to hire young, inexperienced engineers over older, seasoned, ones. If you're one of the older ones, he says, better think about moving up into management, switching to sales or product management, or become an entrepreneur. What's been your experience in your job or industry? Does this ring true? If so, is that just smart management, or does the practice come at a cost for employers? What advice do you have for your colleagues?

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Member

Join Date: Aug 2010
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#1

Re: Age: A Factor?

10/19/2010 9:02 AM

I think it depends on the company. With HVAC companies it depends, some want to start on a clean slate with an employee ready to learn their way others are just looking for an experienced worker and don't want to pay the money and resources to train. My inexperience made it harder to get a job, but now I think I'm more willing to learn more current techniques and material in general.

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Guru

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#2

Re: Age: A Factor?

10/20/2010 12:14 AM

You're right. Companies in Silicon Valley don't like older engineers. Been there 28 years before I retired. So I know the turf.

They like young engineers because they have the physical energy, naivety and lack of outside commitments that enable them to work long hours for which their primary compensation is often worthless stock options. It matters not that the manager has nobody who can solve difficult engineering problems. Seldom will the work of his people be evaluated in the short run for anything more than quantity and on schedule completion. By the time problems show up in the marketplace he will be long gone up the promotion ladder. And his excuse will be that he did the best he could with all those junior engineers he was given.

The reasons why Silicon Valley doesn't like older engineers is based on the high tech nature of the businesses. They derive their technological leadership from the rapid pace of scientific discoveries. Note: Scientific discoveries; not engineering advances. Their technological leaders, often brilliant PhD's CEO's and CTO's come largely from the world of science. As their companies grow they realize that their lack of broad management/financial skills require leaders with established business track records. Seldom do these managerial types bring a lot of technical skills to the party. Mediocrity breeds mediocrity; but that is OK when the new technology is truly revolutionary and disruptive. Engineering excellence can come later. What is important is getting the product to market as fast as possible. Of course this approach can backfire. Steve Jobs knows about this. But then the science in his products is hardly ground breaking. Their marketing is a different story.

The promotion tracks in high tech companies seldom have room for engineers. The management has little respect for engineers often regarding them as overpaid electricians, plumbers and draftsmen. Just another commodity skill needed to make the business work.

You've got to understand what the average phD went through to get doctoral work done and his dissertation approved. Tenured faculty advisors treat these students like dirt. The student carries this role model burned in his mind into his later roles as a manager.

So the managers in these high tech company promotion tracks get very uncomfortable when a senior engineer with a lot of operations experience knows more about how to solve routine operational and technical problems than they do. Especially when the engineer is 10-20 years their senior. They much prefer a breed of "lesser" "yes" men who are no intellectual challenge.

There's another problem in the large corporate structure. The most proficient problem solver can be tarred by the problems he is called on to solve. Often he is an engineer who is long on engineering skills and short on the political skills that would have helped him avoid the "loser" projects. He makes good scapegoat material. He is doomed as soon as he gets associated with a loser project in the eyes of all those big egos above him in the hierarchy. This is an excellent way to get rid of an engineer that is an intellectual challenger to the manager.

The one formula for an older engineer to survive in Silicon Valley is to keep his technological skills as they relate specifically to his industry at the very top and adopt the attitude that his most important job is to identify with his boss and make him look good. It helps here to have a boss that is on a rising promotion track.

Ed Weldon

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Anonymous Poster
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Age: A Factor?

10/20/2010 1:37 AM

Yes, avoiding "loser" projects is an important skill.

I'm slowly learning to stop trying to help. I've found that by the time I'm asked to "help" all the time, money and goodwill is gone. If I then solve the problem I'm asked why I didn't get involved sooner and if I can't rescue it then I've failed.

I've realised that most managers have no idea about the technical challenges in a project, so a 1M$ project to build a new factory (no risk or challenge) is 10 times more prestigious than building a 100k$ machine (high effort, high risk) that justifies the factory.

Unfortunately, I'm getting older faster than I'm getting smarter. FFEJ

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Guru

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#7
In reply to #2

Re: Age: A Factor?

10/20/2010 1:22 PM

In a nutshell -- Alpha engineers do not do well in Silicon Valley. They get eaten for breakfast by Machiavelli's princes. Better to be a reliable Beta. ....Ed Weldon

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Guru

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#4

Re: Age: A Factor?

10/20/2010 1:56 AM

Apart from silicon valley, old people in organizations face the threat of survival on grounds of

* mind set attitudes without the flexibility to change phase of technology, new technology adaptation skills.

* Being a higher cost barrier to the company

* lack of up gradation, freshened values, preferring routines than challenges

* Freshers are mould able to organizational culture and needs, being more energetic and curious.

The views of the blog post seems factual.

Coming to the second part, old people should opt for changed responsibilities[ elevated] like marketing, R&D, customer services,product development etc,[ doing justification on use of rich knowledge gained all the years] whichever is scopeful.

Coming to other class, who are denied of their survival, it is high time to chin up and lead your life steered by the knowledge and experience gained all the years. The initial stage can be painful, but never last for ever.

It is rather a fact to prepare oneself for future survival as one becomes older, sparing some time to brain storm or prepare for future.

Nothing to bother,it got to be done and it pays well later. Just face it..

__________________
Nature is so graceful and naked. Human possession is ridiculous.
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Anonymous Poster
#9
In reply to #4

Re: Age: A Factor?

10/23/2010 11:55 AM

Hi S...,

I can agree with you on many of your conclusions. However, in real life there are at least 20% of old people are smart with flexible attitudes, and eager to learn and use new technologies. Here, I forget the remaining 80%. They are less valueable. Pareto made the definition longtimes ago!

Cost of an employee is irrelevent. If you don't pay a smart individual, you are the loser because you lose this smart individual. Exploitation goes both ways.

In innovative work there is no age limite. Older has experience, the fresh and young can dream what is not made yet. Check the list of major innovators age, you will be surprised to see advanced people, in age and knowledge.

Most of the time, in many organization, there is any interests to have responsibilities. Capability and responsibility are two different subjects.

When you get old, as you defined, create your company in a specific, niche market in what you can do miracles because you are smart. It's only "three things to do": 1-marketing 2-delivering the service or product and 3-creating the service or producing the product. Simplify all operations and collect money from everyone in time.

I think the last paragraph is the final point in the career of a smart individual (woman or man). When you are young, you can be pushed. At middle age, people refuse to be directed every time. Olds are smart to exploit their own smartness and push another youngs. The cycle works well, Gil.

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Guru

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Age: A Factor?

10/24/2010 4:45 AM

Thank you guest for joining me in this forum thread. The mentioned happenings took place in my career and I had faced all experiences and moulding my own track of activity.

The net conclusion was I have become more seasoned to loss/ gain, success or failure and just been motivated to keep moving.

It is on the invention journey as you have rightly pointed out, because routine jobs pose boredom to me.Cheers

__________________
Nature is so graceful and naked. Human possession is ridiculous.
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#5

Re: Age: A Factor?

10/20/2010 10:28 AM

I'm not in Silicon Valley, but from what I've seen on the East Coast in the pharmaceutical industry (specificially JNJ, to name names), age discrimination is rampant, and not just in engineering. They do it to to keep down the cost of salaries and group health benefits.

I know many people around age 50 who have been laid off by big companies, and finding new positions is very difficult. Engineers end up working as temps for job shops. New hires tend to be recent grads or in their 30's at the oldest. HR people are very careful at how they "engineer" this (yes, they have the nerve to call it business re-engineering). When lay-offs come, they get a few token younger ones to avoid age-discrimination lawsuits. I know people who've been offered packages in exchange for agreeing not to sue.

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Anonymous Poster
#6

Re: Age: A Factor?

10/20/2010 1:09 PM

6 cents from my humble observation:

1. Old technologies may be superior, but all about them had been patented and explored, so new revolutionary approach is needed in order to make money.

Young people who don't know that easily believe that new technologies open new possibilities for consumers, while old engineers see the truth that they open new possibilities for new businesses only, being less enthusiastic and less aggressive in promoting and developing of them.

2. Job security, obviously: young and less knowledgeable managers are afraid of more mature engineers working for them.

3. Economic crisis force entrepreneurs and top managers to avoid further serious R&D where experience is needed, and concentrate on running and expanding businesses based on technologies they possess already, hiring narrow-trained for this technologies specialists.

4. Colleges issue more than needed of narrow - trained engineers who know certain "modern" technologies. Older engineers can give multiple answers on interview questions how to solve the problem while may not give one of probable answers that interviewers consider as only valid, due to lack of understanding, but better knowledge of the list of "proper" answers.

5. Hiring managers who could prefer more mature engineers don't have access to them since fat and unavoidable brick-wall buildup of recruiters exist.

6. New terminology for old well known things is constantly invented by marketing departments, and old engineers who don't know it may look like ignorant.

Wavebourn

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Anonymous Poster
#8

Re: Age: A Factor?

10/21/2010 8:23 AM

This is the best news ever, except for those working in Silicon Valley. What a boost it is for all of us who live in other parts of the world that the companies in Silicon Valley are being so charitable - forgoing their competitive edge (and profit margins) - so that we can compete more easily. I remember taking on guys at 63 years old and they made a brilliant contribution.

On a serious note, I am always surprised that companies do not take advantage of the balancing of high energy (it is often perceived that younger people have this) and wisdom (the older group?). The same can apply to diversity if properly managed. Where I have seen these well managed the profits seem to remain good.

I now work in the oil and gas industry where increasing age seems to be an advantage (for now!).

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Anonymous Poster
#11
In reply to #8

Re: Age: A Factor?

10/25/2010 4:25 PM

Do you mean like Soylent Green? Are older engineers being used for...!!??

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#12

Re: Age: A Factor?

10/26/2010 1:31 PM

It all depends on who has the power during a down economy, if its the CFO, you can bet the company is being run by the numbers and then its all about salaries. The more experienced pro, as long as he/she hasn't been coasting, should be able to convince the current employer or next potential employer of their value and passion for creative engineering. No matter what the outcome, if your unemployed, tailor your salary request to what the marketplace demands and how projects can be realized sooner because of experience.

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Anonymous Poster
#13

Re: Age: A Factor?

01/05/2011 12:23 AM

It's not just happening in Silicon Valley, it's everywhere in the U.S. There was never a shortage of engineers – there's always been a shortage of CHEAP engineers. The young kids are attractive only because they're too stupid to realize how they're being exploited. Short-sighted thinking by upper management has caused the U.S. to lose its world technical lead and enter a major recession (which has been going on far longer than the press or politicians will admit). These executives don't realize how much profit they've cost themselves by booting out experience and embracing mediocrity.

But I wouldn't jump into management. With production faltering so are profits, and many managers are being cut too. Product or project management is the worst of two worlds – you are saddled with all of the responsibility but have no power to make anything happen. If you can throw ethics out the window then you can go into sales – after all, the definition of the ideal salesman is the guy who can get money for absolutely nothing (and that's all the company has left to sell).

My advice, since you asked for it, is to:

1) Become debt-free as quickly as possible. Lean times are coming so better not to owe. And there's power in not being dependent.

2) Fund two savings accounts: one to live on, and another for new ventures.

3) Temporarily prolong your job by identifying the most useful executive to brown-nose. You need to keep income until you can move on.

4) Use your experience and skills to identify a good niche for yourself, preferably as a one-man corporation (such as consultant or technical guru). At some point the company's short-sightedness will put it in a bind, and you want to be in the position to save them (at high profit) or take the market away from them.

5) Prepare a Plan B, which is a whole different career path than you've been on, in case your choice of niche doesn't pan out.

6) Once you get your new career going, do not revert back to your old situation. It is okay to go back only if the price and terms are very good. Still, the reason(s) that chased you away before are probably still there so don't delude yourself that it will be better this time.

7) Maintain a network of all of the competent people that you've worked with. This could be the basis for new opportunities – even new business ventures. However, never allow anybody who gave you problems in the past to become part of your new ventures.

It's a myth that old people, especially technical people, are too slow and lazy and rigid and inflexible. Their experience is much cheaper than dumb mistakes. Some seniors might be the product of poor work environments, but most can regain their spark (if they ever really lost it in the first place). Yes, you risk health problems, but their higher productivity still trumps fickle and inexperienced kids.

But the saddest part of this whole aging-out thing is that most technical careers have become so short that they're not economically viable. If you can only expect a 25 year career, that's not long enough to pay off a mortgage let alone put kids through school. Engineering school enrollment continues to drop, and for good reason. The kids aren't completely dumb – they see what's happening to their parents so they're going elsewhere. Service industry jobs do not support the GNP. We can continue to expect recession after recession as long as we keep up this stupidity.

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Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Age: A Factor?

01/05/2011 1:25 AM

Guest, whoever you are....... that was an excellent answer. I think you have more like it in you. I'd like to read your opinion on other subjects; but I tend to avoid "Guest" replies generally because on the average they are well below the 50th percentile in quality.

Staying a guest you subject yourself that that level of discrimination.

Please join CR-4 and get yourself an identity at least. You can remain as anonymous as you choose; but at least when we see your "name" we will know what to expect and direct our attention as appropriate.

Ed Weldon

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