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Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

Posted April 14, 2007 10:11 AM by masu

As promised last week this weeks topic is cold fusion. Cold fusion is loosely defined as the fusion of two atomic nuclei to form a single more massive nucleus at temperatures and pressures at or near normal atmospheric conditions at sea levels.

First off we need to look at what really happens in nuclear fusion and why it is so had to achieve. Nuclear fusion is all about the balance between to fundamental forces of nature, the strong nucleic force and the electromagnetic force. In this instance the electromagnetic force is the repulsive force that two likely charged nuclei exhibit and is governed by the inverse square of the distance between the two nuclei. Put simply if you halve the distance between the two nuclei the force pushing them apart will double. The strong nucleic force is an attractive force and only acts over extremely short distances. The strong nucleic force is what holds the nucleus of the atom together. The problem is that you need to overcome the electromagnetic repulsive force and get the two nuclei close enough together in order for the strong nucleic force to take over and fuse the two nuclei together. The distances involved are extremely short and since the electromagnetic repulsion gets greater as the separation decreases overcoming it requires the expenditure of a great amount of energy.

Generally the temperature and pressure of a substance are a measure of the energy that the atoms that make up that substance possess. Relate this, to the energy that is needed to get nuclear fusion to take place and it reveals that you need extremely high temperatures and pressures to give the individual nuclei enough energy to overcome the repulsive electromagnetic force. Temperature and pressure are however an average measurement of the energy of all the particles that make up a sample and if you look at all the individual particles you will find that there is a range of energies that the individual particles actually exhibit. The concept is that while the average energy is way to low for fusion to take place on a large scale some individual nuclei within a sample may possess enough energy to overcome the repulsive electromagnetic force and allow fusion to take place.

As we saw in last weeks discussion whether or not you get back more energy from the fusion process than you expend getting it to take place, depends on the number of protons in the two small nuclei to start with. As the atomic number increases the number of protons increases and this increases the amount of energy that needs to be expended in order to gent the two nuclei close enough together to allow fusion to occur. In general if the atoms possess more protons than nickel or iron the amount of energy that is required to overcome the electromagnetic repulsive force is greater than the energy that will be returned from the fusion process. Ultimately this means that fusion between nuclei that create new nuclei with less protons than nickel or iron will give you a net gain in energy while the opposite is true for nuclei that produce nuclei with a greater number of protons. This is why fission reactions of heavy atoms like uranium releases energy while the reverse process of fusion, between tritium and deuterium also releases energy.

The debate over cold nuclear fusion was started in 1989 when Fleischmann and Pons reported anomalous experimental results that they attributed to nuclear fusion. If plain water is electrolyzed in a closed cell that is surrounded by a calorimeter the total amount of energy input and heat released can be explained using standard and well understood physics and chemistry. However, if the water is replaced with heavy water, D2O, and the cathode is made of pure palladium there appears to be a surplus of energy that can't be explained by conventional physics and chemistry. It is this surplus that Fleischmann and Pons attributed to nuclear fusion.

There has been considerable debate over the claims of Fleischmann and Pons and to date there is no real consensus one way or the other. The lack of the appropriate fission byproducts and gamma ray emissions would seem to indicate that nuclear fusion not taking place. Considering that the results are not always repeatable, one must at least that there is something going on that is not yet fully understood. Whether this is nuclear fusion is or not another question entirely and to date it has remained unanswered..

Now there are other techniques that do actually produce nuclear fusion at relatively low temperatures and pressures but they all consume more energy than they produce and are therefore not suitable as a source of energy.

After nearly two decades the repeatability of so called cold fusion is still inconsistent and there is still considerable debate over whether there is in fact nuclear fusion taking place. Until the process is both regularly repeatable and fully understood there is no way to even conclude that cold fusion is taking place let alone using it at commercial levels to produce power.

You can read more about cold fusion with these links:

How do you see cold fusion? Do we really understand how nuclear fusion takes place or is cold fusion just poor science and a waste of time, money and effort?

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#1

Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/14/2007 7:17 PM

It's been done to death.

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#2

Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/15/2007 1:19 AM

One thing that's interesting about these "cold fusion" cells is something that you don't hear very often... That being the use of not only palladium in the cell, but a weird mixture of low temperature superconductor materials. There is some thought that the reacting nuclei get trapped in the superconductor's structure and are squeezed into fusion.

Another interesting aspect of cold fusion is that type which is based on ultrasound. It turns out that when really small bubbles in water pop, they create enormous pressures for a fraction or a second. Some believe that deuterium and tritium that get caught within these little high pressure explosions could possibly undergo fusion.

Of course, the most interesting thing of all is the shear amount of bile an vicious debate that this phenomenon has produced. Now if we could just harness that energy source, we'd be in business!

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/15/2007 2:19 AM

Hi vermin,

I think you are talking about sonoluminescence. The jury is still out on whether there is nuclear fusion taking place, however, if it is then it is actually micro pockets of hot fusion rather than cold fusion. The Wikipedia article on cold fusion talks about it briefly.

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#5
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Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/15/2007 4:31 PM

Masu,

Thanks. I'll have to follow up that link and read more on the subject. It's been awhile.

By the way, even if it is micro pockets of hot fusion, is it possible that they've made more progress than those working with a TOCIMAC or that giant laser over at Lawrence Livermore Labs?

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#9
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Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/16/2007 11:10 AM

Yes but no neutrons given out.

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#13
In reply to #9

Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/16/2007 7:31 PM

the neutrons are probably absorbed by the water. thats what makes it hard to confirm if there is a fusion reaction going on. just a thought

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#23
In reply to #13

Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/22/2007 12:30 PM

Ordinary water has no effect Heavy water moderates the neutons but does not stop them. If water could stop neutrons then normal reactors could not funtion. Enough depth of water will slow neutons to a speed were they have too little energy to escape easily but some may still get out.

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#15
In reply to #9

Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/16/2007 11:22 PM

I would think the only way this system might work is if they used deuterium AND tritium... That's the combination that makes the H-bomb work.

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#4
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Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/15/2007 1:00 PM

It is not explosion but implosion of thebubbles when very high pressures occur. This has been noticed in cavitation in different fluids even in hydraulic iols where it was called a diesel-effect.

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#6

Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/15/2007 10:26 PM

Actually this is a very interesting subject. I did some work and research on a reciprocating "fusion" engine years ago.. anyone interested in discussing it?

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#7
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Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/15/2007 11:31 PM

That wasn't the engine that they used in the Chevy Nova in Rep Man, was it?!

Let's talk fusion!!!

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#8
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Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/16/2007 5:49 AM

Pleas feel free to use this thread to post your findings. The whole idea of the blog is to look at any possible technology that may help reduce our dependence on fossil fuels.

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#11
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Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/16/2007 12:37 PM

Sounds interesting. I'd like more info. Did you publish?

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Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/16/2007 11:24 AM

Any thoughts on Helium 3?

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#12

Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/16/2007 6:04 PM

I remember when I first heard of the results of P&F nearly 15 years ago. I was amazed, but then thought I understood the mechanism that must be a driving force behind the phenomenon. To my surprise, I have never heard this mechanism mentioned in connection to Cold Fusion:

When a hydrogen molecule is created at the surface of a metal during an electrochemical reaction, such as corrosion or electrolysis, the hydrogen molecule can migrate into the metal and travel through the interstices between the metal crystallites until it finds a micro void in the metal where it meets another hydrogen atom. The two hydrogen atoms form H2, which can not travel through the interstices and is stuck there. More and more H migrates in. The driving force to form H2 is enormous, pushing pressures in the micro voids to upwards of one million psi. (This is the mechanism of hydrogen embrittlement.) Now substitute deuterium and tritium for hydrogen and it seems to me you have tiny cells of super-high-pressure reactants that only need to heated, radiated, or whatever they do to initiate the fusion.

(Note: I am trying to remember facts from a Corrosion course taken decades ago, so please don't pound me too hard on details I may have misremembered.)

I have wondered for years if this mechanism couldn't be a key factor in the Cold Fusion process (if it exits), but then, maybe I'm all wet. (Probably) If so, could some of you smart folks out there please 'splain it to me.

Bill

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#14
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Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/16/2007 11:17 PM

You really should check out the thread "Damaged Oil Paints." I think you would find that interesting!

Go to the General section and search on "oil paint" it should take you there. Check it out!

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#16

Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/18/2007 4:00 AM

Yes, it should be followed up, using quantum wave theory, there are harmonic amplifications which may have been accidental, not controlled, augmented, since not recognised...Jsta Cat

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#17

Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/20/2007 3:12 PM

hello, my name is sam azar, i have demonstarted the first successful prototype of a clean nuclear fusion system. i call it electromagnetic fusion and it is a beautiful cross between hot and cold fusion.

i fundamentally believe i have succeded in painting a clear picture of this new method of energy generation. i would like those that have a interest in solving the energy crisis to please investigate what i have done.

in an essence, we need to bottle the power of lighting. i used a tesla coil for that.

thank you for your time

sincerely

sam azar

www.noblefuse.org

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA7Urb3cHBE

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#18
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Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/20/2007 4:45 PM

I'm not doubting you, but if this is anything like the stuff that appears on the web, they claim to be achieving fusion because of the presence of free neutrons. I their case, blasting very high voltage through just about anything will disassociate the atoms' nucleus and give rise to free neutrons. But that just ain't fusion!

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#19
In reply to #17

Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/20/2007 9:12 PM

I took a look at your video but it proved nothing. Guess I'll be keeping the money in my pocket for now. Nuclear physics is my area of special interest.

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#20
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Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/20/2007 11:56 PM

Thought so!

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#21
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Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/21/2007 4:54 AM

Now there you should think your self lucky your not being taken for a ride on this issue. Too many have invested time and money chasing after the low cost (Free Energy) dream only to find a small but insurmountable obstacle in their way.

If there were any easy solution to these problems all those who have gone before would by now be house hold names like Tesla, and Edison. Where are they? Still trying to figure out just exactly where it all fell apart. I would be only too glad to assist a good promising project if it would be likely to succeed. We need research into many things but it must be said that the likely hood of a back yard enthusiast making the headlines any time soon is to say the very least unlikely at best.

It is better to squash an idea at birth if it will go no where that to keep saying well if we can just invest another $1,000,000 or so and just give us another six months.

Would you put hard earned cash towards a jam tomorrow investment were all they say is in another (X) weeks or it will take another (X$$) dollars to finish it off.

And every time you go back there is another excuse, obstacle to over come.

I have gone to the web sites and looked I have read the books I have done the sums and I still can not be persuaded that it will ever come to a finished working unit.

All I will say is live the dream but when your tired broke and homeless think on these wise words. "I told you so."

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#22
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Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

04/21/2007 11:10 PM

While never involved in energy projects, many of us in the Valley have worked for small companies that were of the "Just a few more dollars, just a few more weeks." type. So I've seen this from the inside out. You're right, most of the time the workers (who are often investors, too) go down hard and wish the thing had never started in the first place.

Does anyone hear bubbles popping?

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#24
In reply to #19

Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

05/06/2007 8:38 AM

thank you for your reply.

1. i have never taken a dime for my 20 year research. on the contrary, i offer free stocks to people to disseminate my information.

2. you see the video and nothing else and draw opinion. you need more information for such action, video directs you to pdf file.

3. you say squash the idea. i have embrased this idea for 4 years now and i have constantly asked the science community to do so, i have yet to see a true counterargument to my statements.

4. i welcome you and anyone to knock me off this high horse with science and not simple statements of negativity, for i declare i have invented the greatest invention since fire itself.

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

05/06/2007 7:44 PM

Sorry, bubu. The onus is on you. The fact that you have not received negative responses from the scientific community is no proof at all. Scientists, when faced with something that is wrong, tend to not answer at all. They have too much to do and too little time to devote to correspondence with a potential kook (present company excepted).

The other thing that I think most engineers on this site know is that if you pump enough high voltage through a substance such as water, you will get some thermal neutrons... Simply because the voltage is so high it shreds a few oxygen nuclei.

Damn! I wish I could remember that web site where 12 year old kids are shooting extremely high voltage through ratified air and claiming they've achieved fusion because of a small neutron flux. Thankfully, this is not the case. Otherwise, any boob with 100,000 Volts+ would be dying of bone cancer along with their neighbors.

In summation, you need to prove somehow that the energy you're putting in (rather a lot by what's shown in your video) is less than what you're getting out of your reaction cell. A bunch of bubbles doesn't mean anything.

Sorry, I'm not trying to dis' you. But if you really have broken the cold (cool?) fusion barrier and are producing more energy than unity. you need to give the World more proof.

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

05/08/2007 8:45 PM

ONE MORE TIME FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU. MY VIDEO DIRECTS YOU TO PDF FILE. READ BEFORE REPLY.

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#27
In reply to #26

Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

05/08/2007 11:15 PM

Here's one more piece of advice from people like me... If I were you, I would re-shoot your video. For the most part, people are busy and/or just plain lazy. Trying to get them to some article they'll have to read almost guarantees you're not going to make the connection.

If your video introduced the process, showed some meaningful result that you could point to, got the viewer hooked on what you're really accomplishing, I think your written stuff would be better received. Do not underestimate the laziness and lack of attention of the viewing public. It ain't pretty, but I think it's true.

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

05/09/2007 8:41 AM

thank you. that was good advise. there is only so much one can do alone, i ask my fellow citizens to promote this idea not only for myself, but for everyone. this idea is an alternative enrgy solution to rid us of this terrible energy crisis.

i wish i had a team of animation experts to help explain. i wish i had a secretary to help me type on this keyboard. i wish i knew one mathmetician to finalize some early therios. i wish for many things. but i must gather what i have done and begin. i realize i made a bold statement with the "greatest invention ever". i do so "to ring the bell". i need the science communitys attention. i fundamentally believe i have demonstrated enough with a tesla coil and written enough on paper that some key people can put 2 and 2 together. I ask for all to assist me in exposing this idea for yourselves, We must force westinghouse to implement what i propose and conduct these experiments at a far greater and professional level. thank you again for your reply

sam azar

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

05/09/2007 9:54 PM

encourage westinghouse. not force. amazing the power of words

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#30
In reply to #28

Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

05/13/2007 7:11 AM

Sorry for sounding skeptical but at CR4 we see an energy from nothing solution to our future energy needs at least every other week. They are all either scam artists that think they can pull one over on a group of highly trained and experienced engineers of people that do not have a good enough understanding of engineering of physics to understand what they are trying to do.

If you do have something that you think is workable there are people at CR4 that will gladly help you but we need to know a little more about what you are talking about. If you don't wish to talk in a public arena you can contact any of the CR4 people privately by clicking on their name in any thread and following the send XXX a message link.

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#31
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Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

05/14/2007 7:41 PM

OK, I read (and skimmed) your 54 page PDF file. I think I get the gist of what you are doing. What follows is my best non-critical assessment of what I read. Please do not get angry with me if my views differ from yours. I actually am trying to be constructive here.

So, if I understood your paper correctly, then:

1. Your breaking up water into hydrogen and oxygen.

2. You use alternating current so that "stuff" doesn't build up on (or eat) your electrodes.

3. You're assuming a large voltage will cause a magnetic field that will contain the fusion reactants.

4. You believe you can get a free electron and a hydrogen nucleus to fuse to form a neutron.

5. In turn you are going to fuse these neutrons with other free hydrogen nuclei to eventually form helium.

6. And while this is happening, you are going to gather the fusion reaction energy as heat to power, say, a steam turbine.

Is this correct? If yes, then your paper "supposes" that if this high voltage plasma is run through water, a specific set of nuclear interactions are not only favored to occur, but will be the dominant reactions occurring within the reaction area - that is, if large amounts of power are to be gained.

So I have a few questions:

1. If you are using alternating current, won't your magnetic field be in a constant state of flux - breaking down and reversing itself. This will probably occur 180° out of phase of your electric field. Also, the strength of the magnetic field is proportional to the current (number of electrons) and not the voltage. Correct?

2. Your alternating current also keeps changing the structure and polarity of the plasma field, at least that is the way it would seem to me. 100 KHz may seem fast to you and me, but on the subatomic "fusion" level, these time intervals are enormous!

3. I think you showed a figure indicating that a neutron is made of a proton and two electrons (at least that was the way it seemed). Just in case, a neutron is made of a proton, an electron, and an electron neutrino (to provide 1/2 spin).

4. Also, you do know that protons and electrons have completely different behaviors within collections, correct? Protons are bosons and obey Bose-Einstein statistics, while electrons are fermions and obey Fermi-Dirac statistics.

Finally, I seem to see a whole lot of energy put into a process with the possibility of maybe getting a few fusion events. However, it seems rather like cracking walnuts with a jack hammer.

What I think you need to do is two experiments:

1. Somehow measure the reactants to see if the nuclear processes you propose are actually occurring.

2. Accurately account for all the energy you're using off the public grid, then precisely measure the energy output from your reaction cell. You would have to make certain that your measurement at the cell didn't accidentally measure input energy leaking into the reaction vessel. Of course, if these measurements produce results that show significant over-unity results, then you obviously have something.

But that's what YOU have to prove.

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#32

Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

07/06/2007 7:06 PM

I just remebered cold fusion I'd always though it must be as great an idea as a hydrogen powered car guess I was right anyone hear any more about bio-chemical production of hydrogen gas.

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#33
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Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

07/06/2007 11:01 PM

I did after that burrito I ate last night.

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#34
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Re: Future Energy Sources 1.9.2.2 Cold Fusion

07/08/2007 3:31 AM

"anyone hear any more about bio-chemical production of hydrogen gas."

The short answer is yes and I will be starting up a thread on it sometime over the next couple of weeks.

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