When Did Manufacturing Become a Dirty Word?

When?

Slightly before one should feel guilty about becoming successful from hard work. And not both candidates approve of becoming successful.

I sometimes wonder if its just some type of mismarketing due to the stigma of manufacturing with the posibility of that it may require a comittment that seems to be dormant in this society.

What? The next generation's parents giving them luxuries with out any work at all. Hard or not.

Didn't Japan have an issue with getting employees to work in manufacturing a few decades back? They had huge backorders, but no body's willing to work in manufacturing.

Where the trend was that everyone wanted a 'white collar' job

Probably about the same time that 'profit' became a dirty word.

This was about the same time that 'capitalize' became a bad word, as in phrases like 'Smith capitalized on Jones' mistake'. Smith did no such thing of course. Smith took advantage of Jones' mistake. No capital was involved. But the damage to the word 'capitalize' was done.

"...BUT ill-considered locations, short-sighted management and simple ignorance led to failures of large businesses (and their associated town), emissions of toxins that no one thought would need particular attention and in amounts possible only to "industrial"-scale operations led to legal and public backlash against factories and by association with corporations..."

I'm trying to recall the situtation you describe. I was a kid in the 50s and 60s, growing up in what's now called 'the rust belt'. The old steel industry in this region died mostly due to competition from foreign manufacturers that had newer, automated factories that produced a more consistent quality of steel at a better price than these old US factories could that were still paying high union wages.

The only case that comes to my mind like what you describe was the 'Love Canal' region of New York, where the city took over the site of an old chemical factory (despite warnings the ground was polluted) and the city then allowed housing and schools to be built there. Eventually the magnitude of the pollution problem was discovered and the town had to be shut down and evacuated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Canal

What other industries and cities were you thinking of? I'm curious.

After WWII one of the reasons the U.S. boomed was because we had most of all the worlds money and gold.

I think that got lost.

Eh, I don't know. It does not hurt for sure. But we had plenty of returning GI's for labor. Plenty of access to raw materials. Plenty of production facilities from WWII. At the same time, the factory and labor force structure was old times, frozen. Paid for in competition later. Not modernizing= expensive.

You nailed it!

There's a big gorilla in the room, and it lives in Washington. It makes me sick to watch these idiots talk about solving problems..................any of them.

As in; any problems

or

any of the idiots. Regardless of party.

You can find gorillas(families)all over the world in mansions/offices eating public funds and claiming "working for the country"

Why is manufacturing a dirty word? In short, we're not hungry enough. Yet.

As Federal and State loans increased, so did the tuitions at the Colleges and Universities

Thats also when education became a profitable business. I do enjoy having the amount of Colleges in the area, but frankly. their certifications are lacking to be able to transfer to an accredited state college.

I had took a few classes from a private for profit college, only because it offered what I wanted or needed in my town. Loved the Convenience.

But to compared the quality to obtain a degree from a state or from a private college. My only way to level this part of the field is, education is what you make of it.

There one other thing thats being talked about. With the amount of unemployed people with fresh degrees in the 'social' industry, with the possiblity of making $25,000.00/yr after they get out, and IF they can get a job.

The talk is they are looking at the ROI of these degrees. The solution, is to subsidize these $100,000/yr tuition from other tuition degrees that have a higher ROI degrees such as engineering. Yes, Engineering degrees could have a higher cost tacked on to it to enable it to subsidized these other lower ROI programs.

And I can't see how a social degree would cost $100,000.00.

I have to look for the link to this.

Manufacturing is "repeating" job,ideal for less intelligent people but very attractive with bonus for increased output/target achieving. That's why robots are employed in factories. Even bank employees get good bonus payments. Intelligent people may not find manufacturing very interesting.

Manufacturing is VERY interesting. Maybe not if you are an unskilled worker but if you are an engineer who is constantly innovating then it is one of the most creative careers you can follow.

Manufacturing is the wealth creator. Unfortunately there are so many parasitic entities sucking the wealth out that engineers do not get the benefit in terms of top salaries.

Don't get me started on banking bonuses - these are gained by sucking out the wealth from every worker on the planet.

What % of workers in manufacturing sector are Engineers?. Most of them do routine maintenance.

No, I've experience that they wear many hats.......

Maintenance, Quality Control, Project Management, Engineering^{(this includes a wide spectrum)} , ect..

But what's the percentage of engineers vs. line-workers?

You wear many hats because no employer wants to pay for all of those positions as individuals.

That has been going on for a long time and to forfull this.

You wear many hats because no employer wants to pay for all of those positions as individuals.

Join a union, where one can state, "Thats not my Job" or "He's doing my Job" while the other watches while he/she waits for 'his/her' job to come up.

It happened when all of our schools were taken over by people that believe that anything that involves machinery or building things destroys the planet.

They simultaneously instituted the notion that everyone has a "right" to a college degree in philosophy or the arts, followed immediately by a six figure income.

When accountants, bankers and politicians rose to the fore.
The sooner the imballance is restored the better.
Del

They need to realize that "dues" need to be paid.

Never say that to a green engineer. I did that once.

When you say it, you mean for them to gain experience and true confidence in their abilities.

They ^{(They being the green Engineers fresh out of college)} do not understand and think you are just holding them back. Thinking that after going to college the hard work is done.

But after being seasoned, only then does one realizes that after college, the real work actually begins.

Modern young engineers are degree-concious not work/duty concious. On the other hand their parents might have been apprentices without qualification(degree/diploma).

Manufacturing is a bad word because of all places, they are associated with sweatshops. The manager, laborer relationships are the worst. Managers are more greedy and the laborers are screwed and abused. Hostess is a perfect example right now. It's not the Unions, there problem is mismanagement. If you want to work as just an employee in manufacturing, you are treated like a know nothing little kid. That is why manufacturing sucks.

About your opinion about Hostess, it is just that an opinion.

Hostess was not raided by greedy management, and turned it from a profitable business to thin air.

Hostess was raided, because it was in deep trouble, and Management saw value in it.

They realize they could capitalize on it, with an outside chance of salvaging the company on top of making a buck. You have to realize that Business is not about welfare, its about maximizing and turning a profit.

And when Hostess imploded (Which by the way, was long overdue), and because its about making a buck, they cashed in. There is no need to apologize, business can appear and be cold.

It's mismanagement.

Hostess had the same problem a few years ago and asked the employees to take a 15% pay cut and the employees agreed to it.

Nothing changed in the operation of the company and they are again in the same situation and are asking the employees to take another 8% pay cut.

In the mean time management gets bonuses of about 75% of their annual salaries. The employees are paid $11.40/hr.

The Union is doing what they were created to do in this situation. Even during bankruptcy talks the executives are still wanting to give managers bonuses.

The information I provided is from former employees of Hostess.

Your statement:

Hostess had the same problem a few years ago and asked the employees to take a 15% pay cut and the employees agreed to it

It's what I said earlier, they never returned to the problem, the fact is, they never got out of it. Magaement saw this, and took advantage of it. The result, they madd emoney, the company stayed open for a few more years.

This company, in hindsight should have declared bakruptcies a long time ago, iy was not sustainable.

and your statement of

In the mean time management gets bonuses of about 75% of their annual salaries. The employees are paid $11.40/hr.

And again like I said earlier, yes, when it imploded, they cashed in on any remaining value. And until you understand bankruptcy, they have every right.

The point is, Hostess was unsustainable period. Management just had Hostess on life support sure off the backs of unions,

but who is really at fault?

An unsustainable workforce or poor management? you cannot just pick one out without addressing the other.

I understand what you are saying. I got off on a rant because I see so much of blaming the union that I didn't really read your statement the first time. I apologize.

No need to apologize. But I do like it when one posts their position to actually debate it.

And my position with Hostess was that it was on life support for a very long time.

And for it to have survived, there needed to be a stronger management team in there 20 years ago........atleast.

This is how I view it, there are different types of management strategies and each is different for different circumstance.

1. A Growing Company
2. A distressed Company
3. A successfully Company
4. A short term profit Company
5. A Long term profit Company
6. ect.....

And changing to a correct strategy at the correct time, THAT is good management, that may also require some luck. The problem is when its successful, that is in my opinion when poor decisions are made.

It's not 'Why fix something when its not broke', it more like, 'lets position ourselves to maximaze our future'. Management and the union totally missed it.

• Management being successful, caved in to union demands, (They should have spread it out farther)
• While the union seeing that the comapany is successful bite the hand that feed them by over extending their demands on current businesss model.
  

That is an oversimplified version, and of course its all hindsight.

Those who can, do. Those who cannot, teach it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The above saying is a bit of tongue-in-cheek, the kernel of reality still stings. And I obviously not talking about a person, who knows what he is talking about, and can do it too. I am talking about an ideology - a total view of the world and the place of the Self in it.

I, for one, was doing engineering. And made it sure, that every one of my designs or upgrades were working before implementing them on any scale. That meant frequently getting my hands "dirty". No matter, how elegant it is in our mind, if it fails in real life, it is a failure. With that in mind, you develop a healthy respect for manufacturing as an essential part of the whole.

That is where the rubber meets the road. Those, who can, learn to respect it. Those, who cannot, frequently develop pathologies to explain, why their inability / unwillingness is really a superiority. And that is an ideology, especially when a large tribe on the same reservation sings the same songs in unison. By this time you may have noticed, that I include bookkeepers, doctors, nurses....etc. in the "getting their hands dirty" group.

The deciding factor is, that they produce real value. The sharp dividing line is, do they all?!?

When the can't, won't don't even know the dismal science (economics) types dominate the discourse, pathologies flourish, with predictable consequences.

Do you want to tag these types? Easy. They talk about present day manufacturing, like it is the 1700s European smokestack exploitation. And they go to the farthest end of the world to document any remnant of it.

------------------------------------------------------------------

When the outgo exceeds the income, something got to give.

This is what happens when you have Socialist-leaning LibTard professors teaching business etc to the little Monsters in the Colleges and Universities.....anything to do with manufacturing is taught as a planet killer, and is 'dirty'.

I ran into their mindset all too often as a PhD candidate, hence the reason I did not stay in the education arena and opted to continue my career as a Consulting Engineer. They drove me NUTZ, and made me so mad they their views "Burned my Rice Krispies"!!!!

Ed Asner does a pretty good job in explaining why no one is interested in working for anyone, or company that is motivated by profit. It's evil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwg4DB-EeEA&feature=player_embedded

Fox News covered his story. Ed Asner wasn't ragging on manufacturing, he was ragging on rich people exploiting the lower class people, with rich thinking they are entitled to more money and we are entitled to less. That is in fact one aspect of capitalism that is an ugly result. He is demonizing the rich, however not all rich people are of the frame of mind of pissing on the working class.

I don't watch Fox.

It's unfortunate that the rich are now classified as anyone that makes over $250K per year. This would include the vast majority of partnerships, S corporations, etc. In other words, the owners of our small to mid sized corporations, which would include the lions share of our manufacturing sector.

I've worked for people that would be considered "rich" for most of my adult life. I've never met anyone like Mr Asner describes, although I'm sure there are a few out there.

I think the automatic association of corporate America with greed/pollution has gone a long way toward making "manufacturing" a dirty word. In fact, I think the word "business" is becoming a dirty word.

Asner's point was targeted at the top 1%. Primarily the old money. Mr. Monopoly.

It's not hard for someone in computers or medicine to score over $200,000/yr.

The owners of where I work are French and our parent company is in France where they are based. They fit the description that the video Ed Asner narrates quite well.

No not on a "S" type corporations, you always keep yourself an arms length arway from being associated with that entity.

And you have to keep it that way for separation on most liability issues.

Nuff said.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/article/285396/8/School-locked-down-over-thermometer

Aww, that domain is blocked on my server.

Really?

Long story short; A high school student brought a mercury filled thermometer from home for his chemistry class on the elements.

The school went into a panic, locked down the school, and called in a HAZMAT team.

It is a hazardous material. I'm not making light of it. My grandfather worked in a cinnabar mine, he told me about the guys having their fingernails and teeth turn black. My grandfather didn't suffer any symptoms of mercury poisoning. What is dangerous is the mercury evaporates and it's the gas that is harmful.

My Dad used to have some in a pill bottle that we could hold in our hands and play around with..............outside of the bottle.

We have moved far beyond common sense, and into the realm of the absurd.

Mike Rowe is getting close.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2010/10/13/mike-rowe-america-must-return-to-dirty-jobs-to-solve-unemployment

Yes, I listened to it, and Asner was ragging on anybody, but his own type. More on that later.

An engineer, manufacturer, economist, etc. sees the world as north to south and east to west. Profit is the value added activity's results distributed, somehow. I mean, YOUR activity, adding value.

E.A. and his kind sees the world along sweet and sour, I want and do not want, socially correct (by him) or not, modern (according EA) or not. All of them wish-able. None of them measure-able, even if they would be like-able. None of them want to leave me well enough alone, to do what I wish to do myself. All these schemes are based on their perceived superiority telling me how to manufacture that dirty "stuff" we should offer with self abasement to our better. And ask for forgiveness for the dirty process it was made with.

If you do not like it, do it yourself! Oh, you can't / won't? Tough!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This all is a replay of history, and the players are worthless rascals, as ever.

Almost afraid to mention/suggest it lest the universe apply it: If the government is going to wind up paying for cleanup of "brown fields" what does everyone think of taxing instead of a company's profits, the toxic "footprint" of a company's activities? Too much leeway for meddlers or the "cause of the month club"? or something that could "encourage" environmentally improved processes? If you want to stay with a particular process, you pay for the mess you make. Of course, when this structure would apply as opposed to financial firms (electronic transactions) would have to be thrashed out separately.

Would that help take the stink off the more "responsible" companies?

?????. Clarity, please.

The closes I come of 1950's understanding and 2010 cleanup technology. Hope it isn't it.

what does everyone think of taxing instead of a company's profits, the toxic "footprint" of a company's activities?

Sounds simular to the carbon credits scam

I've swam around in bilge water on a ship in that diesel oil fishing for dropped wrenches.

Before this thread veers of into whatever wonderful direction, I want to put down an anchor. I am for you, me, and anybody in getting better off after a while.

No, I am not interested in redistribution. Been there, tried that, sucks. I want all being better off.

You think I am uninformed? NO. Compare yourself with the ancient greek, roman, medieval, industrial beginning citizen. You live better, than their princes. Take heat, plumbing, medical, life expectancy, literacy etc. No matter how you slice it, you are rich. Do not feel it? That is a different case.

Relatively speaking, that is a different discourse. Room for improvement? Yeah.

The future, with its focusing on information (manufactured or not) is guaranteed to be basically, centrally, conceptually different from the 1700's european setup, and from the mindset of the ruffians still steeped in it.

Don't worry the Chinese will take all manufacturing, so the problem is resolft...

Well, boys and girls, it is time for economics 101 you have not have gotten from today's crop of college or such teachers. And yes, I lived thru 4 different economic systems. 3 I know personally, the 4.th thru my family's hardships.

Neither the US, nor Iapan, nor Singapore is the richest in resources. Mexico, and most of South America, Russian Siberia are much richer. In weather, agricultural advantages, even in mineral riches (mostly the volcanic Cordillera mountains). What is the difference? It has nothing to do with what is under your feet. It has everything to do with what is between your ears. The US was established -uniquely, as far as I know - that you own mineral rights under your land + other ways. Hence, you have a vital interest in it. A company would like to drill and frack (oh, the very sound of it!!) for gas under your pasture, and pay $10thousand/month for it? Well, you might decide to do it, and send all 3 of your kids to school (never mind that wisdom for now). That is called Value Added......It is, because gas under the ground since the dinosaurs is no value, as in NONE, until it is mined, drilled, utilized. So are all mineral rights.

Mineral rights? Mexico retains those to the state. Sounds fine in abstract. But, what is a landowner (large or small) to do? If he admits to having good silver ore on the land, he gets mess and grief, but none of the profits. So where is his interest? Nowhere. So, he is better off burying the news, going on raising cattles semi-wild. Economical optimum? Yeah, right!

Now all this is past. The information age is upon us. From manufacturing to anything at all. And the freeloading, sapsucking rascals are on the out on this, because they cannot hack the new system. When the information flows freely and willingly, gatekeepers are bypassed. Makebots anyone, for example, schools outside the union system another. How long will it take? It is under way. And our dinosaurs will complain having never gotten a fair treatment. But we will suffer in the meantime.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can the capitalism improved upon? Yes, definitely. And, all others are hopeless. But, when it is transmogrified into other, it is other, period. TANSTAAFL. For the less literate: there ain't no free lunch anywhere, anyhow.

I for one will never be fluent in economics, only a layman.

The then U.S.S.R. could have crushed us, at any time with their furtile land and resources.

But with a poor infrastructure where the crops rotted out in the fields, that created huge bread lines where it was needed only to be greeted with sparce shelves at the store.

With its economic structure which based productivity not on what is produce but what is consumed. i.e. camping equipment the is heavy as well as farming equipment that compacted the soil because it did not look at number produced, but number of raw material consumed.

You are correcct its not under your feet that counts, it getting what is under your feet to market that does. But have value under your feet does help.

Manufacturing is most essential thing. Someone has to do it and when people need things then manufacturing makes all sense. Manufacturing is a bit complex thing. Commonly used items are often manufactured by many and some are good and some are not so good and some even bad. Manufacturing something which is not essential but by education it can become need in the life also becomes a part of the regular manufacturing.

As there are too many manufacturers, not all devoted to great cause and have only aim to make money, manufacturing often get looked down for being difficult for not so well professionals in the line. These people can call it anything from dirty to worthless etc.

Greatest thing manufactured daily and used is food. All of us gulp some of it right from the market manufactured by others. If not all then part of it is manufactured by others.

We also need many other things that are very essential. We also want those things of quality. Hence, manufacturing in those essential areas will remain good thing to do by experts and dirty thing by those who are unfit.

Even top class technology the greatest in the world can run into accidents like NASA programs and may look dirty at times. However, these are challenges for few even in troubled time. Doctors fail and a Surgeon may not be able to save life but they don't stop working as good results weigh out bad result. I think the same rule is applicable for manufacturing.