Automotive Technology Blog

Automotive Technology

The Automotive Technology Blog is the place for conversation and discussion about electrical/electronic components, materials, design & assembly, and powertrain systems. Here, you'll find everything from application ideas, to news and industry trends, to hot topics and cutting edge innovations.

Previous in Blog: The Dawn of Active Suspensions?   Next in Blog: Self-Service vs. Full-Service, That Is The Question
Close
Close
Close
11 comments
Rate Comments: Nested

Driverless Cars vs. Railroads, Round 1

Posted November 05, 2014 10:43 AM by HUSH

First let me self-expose a bias: I'm a rail fan. Maybe not as big a rail fan as this guy, but a rail fan nonetheless.

It began in the days when I was a young kid and my mom would take me to the rail yard to see locomotives idle down, detach cars or push rolling stock over the hump. It continues today, even though most of my current train experiences are standing-room only, someone smells and the subway car is invaded by a team of street acrobats.

For most people outside large cities, trains aren't a true transportation option, but then again neither are cars. For everyone else, there is seemingly a 'sweet spot' for travelling by train, somewhere between 100 and 600 miles. Anything closer can be trekked by car; anything farther should require an airplane.

But even with these considerations, travelling by car is typically preferred. The advantages are numerous. There is no set itinerary. You don't have to adhere to luggage limits or fees. No rushing to the station to make departure. It's comparable in price, and usually faster than a train. Metrics back up the American penchant for driving over riding. The U.S. has more than double the rail network size of second-place China, but ridership stats rank behind railroad-deficient countries such as Egypt and Mozambique.

Despite this, investment in railway improvements and high-speed rail development continues to create political pressure in the U.S. In many ways it's a foreign issue too--take Britain's own HS2 high-speed rail debate as evidence that train tickets aren't an easy sell in many places.

So when one of train travel's primary advantages--the ability to sleep, work, game, watch a video or completely zone out--arrives in automobiles, by way of autonomous driving, is it the deathstroke for travel by train?

Seemingly so, according to this Forbes article that articulates that trains are already approaching obsolescence, and that the ability to sit down in a privately owned car (either yours or one you arranged for by emerging ride-sharing programs), travel at 100 mph, and enjoy the time as your own will significantly increase most people's reliance on and utilization of automobiles. Envisioning a fully-developed autonomous vehicle market, cars can be complemented by automated tractor trailers and flatbeds, further devaluing trains as a whole, but this time from the freight and logistics perspective.

But a few things can keep supply-chain-by-train a thing of the near-present and forever-future. First, a real, tangible tunnel or bridge that connects Alaska to Siberia via the Bering Strait would go a long, long way (figuratively and literally) in keeping locomotives relevant. Foremost, both Alaska and Siberia have sparse infrastructure, and the ability to keep cars fueled and serviced in the remote corners of these continents would be an enormous and expensive challenge. Not only that, but crossing the 125-mile tunnel or bridge via automobile would be much more risky proposition. When the first bridge over the Bering was conceptualized in 1890, the engineering was not up to task, but governments on both sides believed it would be an enormous economic advantage. One-hundred-twenty-five years later, the engineering is more than capable of creating such a design, but the political goodwill doesn't exist anymore. The most recent news on this front comes from China, who wants to build a China-Russia-Canada-U.S. high-speed railroad to transport people and goods from China to the U.S. in just two days.

A separate option is update trains themselves. First, train engineers can be replaced by automated systems as well. Though this can be controversial, as since July 2013 freight trains carrying potential hazardous materials have received increased scrutiny, this is ultimately leveraging the same technology that makes trains obsolete in the first place. Enormous operational costs can be recouped by integrating things like automated process controls, remote inputs and advanced ticketing systems, effectively saving railroads from themselves. Hybrid or hydrogen-powered trains are viable ways to decrease fuel dependencies.

Lastly, is to market trains less as a way to the destination, and more as a destination in itself. Take ocean liners as an example. Once airplanes turned a 10-day voyage on the open sea into a 10-hour power nap, ocean liners became terribly archaic. But for those who prefer the scenic route, don't have a schedule or purse strings or don't want to fly, the Queen Mary 2 still operates trans-Atlantic voyages for most of the year. Guests are surrounded by luxury during a seven-night crossing from New York to Southampton. In many ways, passenger trains could remodel themselves as a luxurious means to scenic travel. Rail lines like the JR Kyushu have taken this idea and implemented a four-day sightseeing trip around Japan. The image at right is from one of the suites on this train, while this gallery exhibits ideas for future rail liners.


No one can really predict if trains will become outdated or if autonomous vehicles will even work. But the precedent is there, and now it's up to the railroad industry to decide how proactive about its fate it needs to be.

Reply

Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Guru
Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Automotive Performance - New Member Technical Fields - Education - New Member Fans of Old Computers - TRS-80 - New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 1331
Good Answers: 30
#1

Re: Driverless Cars vs. Railroads, Round 1

11/05/2014 11:31 AM

Simply ELIMINATE the tunnels and use commercial submarines as "underwater" equivalents of commercial "abovewater" airliners/airplanes...DUH!

__________________
...and the Devil said: "...yes, but it's a DRY heat..!"
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11119
Good Answers: 918
#2

Re: Driverless Cars vs. Railroads, Round 1

11/05/2014 12:27 PM

"In many ways, passenger trains could remodel themselves as a luxurious means to scenic travel."

Trains (specifically AMTRAK) can't make a profit on any train they run.

Even the luxury AutoTrain runs in the red and that is not a cheap ride (I know because I have taken that trip last year).

I think it is a nice thought, but the idea simply is not grounded in reality in the USA.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - Wannabeabettawelda

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Annapolis, Maryland
Posts: 7940
Good Answers: 458
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Driverless Cars vs. Railroads, Round 1

11/06/2014 2:32 AM

We could make rail travel more cost efficient if we would just tax our petrol up to about $8 per gallon.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Virginia, Georgia, Idaho
Posts: 1079
Good Answers: 30
#4
In reply to #2

Re: Driverless Cars vs. Railroads, Round 1

11/06/2014 6:39 AM

While we are at it, (trashing the value of rail mass transit) let's get rid of those pesky money pit hospitals, overpasses and endangered species laws. If you can't make some cash, it can't make sense. What a sorry state of the nation we are in.

__________________
PFR Pressure busts pipes. Maybe you need better pipes.
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11119
Good Answers: 918
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Driverless Cars vs. Railroads, Round 1

11/06/2014 9:54 AM

I think you missed my point...

If the current rail system for normal commuting is not even breaking even (let alone profitable), what hope is there of making a luxury train system profitable?

You might be able to make a specialized service, but it would be a very small organization as the operational costs would be very high and the number of people with enough disposable income to ride it very small. So, not only do you lose the economy of scale, you lose the frequency of repeat business. It is sort of like the difference between taking a ferry versus a cruise ship. You may take a ferry daily as part of your commute, but a cruise is something you do maybe once a year and the costs reflects this.

AMTRAK tried this with the AutoTrain. While it is nice, the cost to ride it is very high and the service still costs more money to operate than it generates in revenues.

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Hmmm...

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Maryland
Posts: 567
Good Answers: 29
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Driverless Cars vs. Railroads, Round 1

11/06/2014 10:37 AM

We know Amatrak is not profitable, but how do local & regional rail services fair? Are they self supporting or money losers for local governments? I'm thinking of Maryland's MTA and Pennsylvania's SEPTA as two examples that I'm familiar with.

Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11119
Good Answers: 918
#7
In reply to #6

Re: Driverless Cars vs. Railroads, Round 1

11/06/2014 10:42 AM

You could do a search as they both are public sector entities and as such will need to post their financial status.

The only financially solvent rail systems I know about are freight. I am sure that there are some commuter systems that may also be profitable, but if there are, it seems like they are the exception and not the rule.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - Wannabeabettawelda

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Annapolis, Maryland
Posts: 7940
Good Answers: 458
#10
In reply to #7

Re: Driverless Cars vs. Railroads, Round 1

11/07/2014 11:40 AM

I would think (dangerous activity) that the NYC metro rail systems must be making money because NYC makes it so damn expensive to commute into that morass. Their trains have very impressive ridership numbers. But then again it wouldn't take that much corruption to make it insolvent either.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - Wannabeabettawelda

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Annapolis, Maryland
Posts: 7940
Good Answers: 458
#11
In reply to #6

Re: Driverless Cars vs. Railroads, Round 1

11/07/2014 11:43 AM

I live in the Annapolis area and travel around the region and from what I have seen for ridership on the MTA light rail in and around BWI, that must be a serious money pit. Their cars always seem to have only four or five people in them.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Virginia, Georgia, Idaho
Posts: 1079
Good Answers: 30
#8
In reply to #5

Re: Driverless Cars vs. Railroads, Round 1

11/06/2014 3:02 PM

I didn't see any reference to a luxury train service. The OP was simply recognizing the fact that it is cheaper, easier and more fun to drive your car than to take a train. Unfortunately, it is far more polluting and energy wasting, but hey, that's what money is for, isn't it? The reason it is cheaper is because you are not paying for the damage (politically and environmentally) that the fuel acquisition, transportation and combustion inflicts on the environment. The vast majority of engineers on here don't really care, but I'll keep talking.

__________________
PFR Pressure busts pipes. Maybe you need better pipes.
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11119
Good Answers: 918
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Driverless Cars vs. Railroads, Round 1

11/06/2014 4:27 PM

You wrote, "I didn't see any reference to a luxury train service."

If you read the last paragraph of the article it states, "Lastly, is to market trains less as a way to the destination, and more as a destination in itself."

It goes on to say, "In many ways, passenger trains could remodel themselves as a luxurious means to scenic travel."

That was what my post (#2) was referring to as far as the economics of converting trains to a luxury transport. I don't think it would be profitable and the market for it would be low.

I doubt that the environmental issues are the reason cars are cheaper for people on a per-mile bases.

Reply
Reply to Blog Entry 11 comments
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

70AARCuda (1); Anonymous Hero (4); Brave Sir Robin (3); Lo_Volt (1); PFR (2)

Previous in Blog: The Dawn of Active Suspensions?   Next in Blog: Self-Service vs. Full-Service, That Is The Question

Advertisement