Auto Emissions: the Lab vs. the Real World

Nazimobiles? That's taking it past the point of righteous indignation to well within the neighborhood of hate mongering....and isn't this what we are teaching our children now, that the only thing that's important is doing well on the "test"..?

There's a software "solution" to everything!

Personally I equate laboratory testing VS real world problem solving to be similar to a classroom test Vs the day to day problem solving we do all the time. Sort of similar but not really.

The classroom test is usually looking for a very specific answer that was derived in a specific way whereas day to day problem solving tends to focus on finding any answer that works by any means available which when that problem solving method is applied to a classroom test, well we all know how that goes over.

Doing well in the classroom does not always equate to being capable and competent in real life just as being capable and competent in real life situations does not always equate to being able to do well on a classroom environment test.

Personally I say VW did not cheat. They approached the test and gave the answers exactly how they were wanted. The only problem was they used real life application methods (sort of like using the fancy calculator rather than doing it long hand) to provide the answers the testers were looking for.

Yes this brings an interesting perspective, the problem is not that they were cheating, it's just that they were not doing it well enough....Ha! They were providing the test room level of compliance instead of the real world level of compliance, the always sentient VW should have recognized it was under surveillance and acted accordingly...This I'm sure will be the next generation of AI compliance.....

High mileage Rabbit...

Not a lot of power, but she goes all day on a few bucks....

I would be a lot more concerned about the "emissions" from this power plant than VW's engine!

It's in the bag!

Hurray!

Just what I said in another thread. Manufactures will design their vehicles around the test requirements the government creates.

We see the same thing in nature. Nature writes the rules and life exploits them!

The bottom line is that emission tests need to be better written. Expecting companies to abide by the intent of the law is not much different than expecting water to not seek its own level.

There was a time back in the 70's/80's (before EFI/OBD) when every car tested in Arizona was put on a dyno and run through a speed profile that was projected on a CRT that the tech had to watch and follow. That took at least 5 minutes after the car was secured on the dyno rollers.

Now, the car gets plugged in and the test is over in 30 seconds. The cost went from $27.50 all the way down to $20.00USD.

It's much easier to cheat now. It's sorta like hacking. New test, new cheat.

My curiosity on this is if they start going out and doing real world testing on every brand and model of vehicle and what if they start finding that most vehicles do not pass emissions standards 100% of the time in real world driving conditions?

Then what? Fine the auto industry as a whole out of existence or give them a reason to all band together and tell the regulators to go stuff themselves and their rules?

How exactly would one regulate a massive worldwide industry that decides to all work together and tells you to take your regulations and get lost?

Rules regulations and enforcement only work when the majority agrees to abide by them. When they don't well....

The banking, oil, insurance and other industries, and our politicians have all solved the problem of ignoring those pesky rules and getting away with it.

Don't worry. All our problems will vanish when The Donald becomes POTUS.

Apart from VW, Audi, BMW & Skoda have now admitted that they used similar software, I'm sure there will be more. The software was supplied by Bosch who, it appears, had written assurances from the car makers that this was only to be used for in-house testing. This has also revealed the amount of cheating which was allowed by the test rules including things like lightening the car by removing parts like door mirrors, spare wheels etc., taping over body joints & over inflating tyres.

If you stop and think about it Its not really a surprise that someone made and used this software to beat the emissions test. Since cars are software driven these days and all they do to test them now is to plug them into a tester the car could tell the testing equipment anything it wants. Guess it would be to obvious if the car had zero emissions but feasibly the car computer could tell the testing computer that.

In all the numerous analyses and reports I have read regarding this issue, a subtle but important question has never been asked nor answered. VW were bringing these cars into the USA since 2009. Why did it take the US Government 6 years to finally catch them at it?

Further, why did the US Government have to employ a University to provide the necessary evidence?

There is a serious question of competency to be answered here.

I feel that you went a bit more than "overboard" with the remarks about the Nazis, that was over 70 years ago....

How would you personally feel about I post a blog about slavery in the USA, the need for busing of children in the 60's because whites were still treating people of color as slaves, how they STILL get shot by police in the USA, almost as a matter of course.

Most of this is nowhere near 70 years ago......some of it is still happening!!

How about a blog about the Gun nuts and the NRA, showing just how crazy some people are in the USA?

45 school shootings already in 2015!!! How about fixing that?

Also, the VW Beetles that "captured" the world for many years was actually NOT the version that Ferdinand Porsche made. It was heavily based on it but the British army made the final version that actually worked and got sold.

So you can blame the UK and its army if you want to blame anyone that they were made and sold.

This car was one of the products that got Germany out of a huge (self made) financial hole at the end of WW2.

Furthermore, as someone already mentioned, several other manufacturers are doing the same......so you should have included that in the original post, not just blaming VW (which are far removed from the Nazis), or did you not know that? I certainly did....

I personally also see this emissions "problem" as being a sure indication that the only proper way to reduce them drastically, is to get governments to insist on hybrid cars from now on.....whether diesel or petrol....ones that can be recharged for short journeys, but can also use fuel for long ones.....of course, we must also further reduce emissions when running on fuel, that is still a "given".

The overall effects in the world may eventually be a possible reduction in total emissions of 50% or better....but it will take time.....

In the future, I would appreciate it a) you got your facts right, b) your facts are complete c) you don't act like someone living in a glass house and throwing stones at other people!!

So do try to hold back your bias on such sensitive subjects in the future!!! Report in an accurate and full way.

Someone living in "Crime Alley, Gotham City" should understand that even far better than I.....

"I personally also see this emissions "problem" as being a sure indication that the only proper way to reduce them drastically, is to get governments to insist on hybrid cars from now on.....whether diesel or petrol....ones that can be recharged for short journeys, but can also use fuel for long ones.....of course, we must also further reduce emissions when running on fuel, that is still a "given"."

I cringe at the thought of governments driving the markets of free enterprise because they are effectively clueless as to how free enterprise works.

They are masters at bureaucracy, but have a long record of failure when it comes to business.

As I cited before, the problem is with the testing rules. They are written poorly and encourage the behavior we have just seen.

As an engineer you should know that all too well. We are told to build what the specifications call for or test what the requirements demand. It is the rule of the 'shalls'.

Poorly defined specifications, be them design or test, yield a poor work product. The testing criteria by the EPA an other agencies were absolutely inadequate and we got exactly what they demanded in writing.

"I cringe at the thought of governments driving the markets of free enterprise because they are effectively clueless as to how free enterprise works."

From the airlines and cable companies we've gotten a good example of how Corporations feel that 'free enterprise' should work:

1. Buy up/buy out the competition until there are only a few key players left, each with a virtual monopoly on a part of the total resource (geographical areas for cable companies, routes for airlines)
2. Jack up the prices for consumers
3. Use the profits to 'assist' more congressmen friendly to the concept of 'Corporate Sovereignty' (but call it 'free market' or 'deregulation' in public to keep the sheeple in the dark) to get into position to push for their (or rather, their Corporate Puppetmaster's) 'free market' laws.
4. repeat from step 2, return to step 1 if a 'minor player' seems to be growing into something large enough to affect Shareholder Profits.

"...but have a long record of failure when it comes to business."

Guess that makes The Donald, with his string of corporate bankruptcies a perfect candidate for the Oval Office.

Is your point that my assessment that poorly designed tests leads to to the mess that VW has found themselves in is false?

If so, its a very poorly constructed counterargument. Actually, its more like a straw man approach.

Looking back at my post, I realized it was nothing more than the venting of a spleen.

Sorry for the rant, I'm not used to dealing with such heavy political campaigning OVER A YEAR PRIOR to the election, and I'm beginning to see any reference to government as someone trying to impose their political opinions on others.

I should be better after Super Tuesday. Wait, it's not the Super Tuesday of this year, which is less than a month away, it's the Super Tuesday a year after that.

I think I need a freaking drink.....

Drinks good!

I just ignore the political rhetoric unless it provide comic relief. So far the lineup appears like a clown convention in some ways. The trick is to try not to take it seriously.

I'm trying to take it as comic relief, however, when it looks like the clowns are trying to destroy the entire system, such as The Donald's openly racist comments getting so much support from his base, leading the other GOP to swing even further to the Rediculous Right to try and keep up, or JEBya! trying to prove that as 'the smart son,' he's even dumber than how SNL was portraying DUHbya, or the democrats ... well, they've been pretty milquetoast with their problems, Hillary being attacked for 'violating' a law that didn't exist when she 'violated' it, or McCarthy's .. well, McCarthyism in forming the Bengazi investigation subcomitee specifically to attack Hillary, or the Black Lives Matter movement storming the stage and taking over a Bernie Sanders rally.

I think I'm getting sidetracked with trying to find examples, best to close with a metaphor: When the circus clowns are throwing pies at each other, it's hilarious; when they start flinging sharpened knives, it gets uncomfortable; when they star throwing live hand grenades into the audience then it's not a joke anymore! And watching the candidates, mostly the GOP, rallying their base with Bigotry, Hate and Fear so openly is terrifying. All this bile being brought to the surface and stirred up isn't just going to go away after the next election, over a year away. It's going to stick around, eating away at the fragile bonds that hold this country, this 'nation of immigrants' together. Remember, out of all the idiots and clowns from both sides, one of THEM is going to be sitting in the Big Chair for the next four years; we're not going to get an option from outside that pool. (Okay, we will get other choices, but they'll never get enough votes to be a contender, all they'll do is drain votes away from whatever party they more closely represent.)

I think the Donald factor is simply a very large number of people telling the politicians that they are sick of their politics.

Would they actually vote for him? Well, if politicians fail to get the message, perhaps, but what people are screaming for is someone that is really competent, middle of the road, and not a career politician.

There are lots of people out there like that, but they know better than to run for office, unfortunately.

"what people are screaming for is someone that is really competent, middle of the road, and not a career politician.

There are lots of people out there like that, but they know better than to run for office, unfortunately."

And that's the sad truth: the people who could run the country right are the ones who don't want to get involved in the modern political nightmare required to get into office. Unless you have a 'billion dollar bankroll' like The Donald, you need Support to run for President, and the only ones who get Support are ones who have 'proven' themselves by successfully winning a lesser office, State Governor, or US Congressman, and to get one of THOSE positions, you need Support, which means you had to have won a position in State legislature, or Mayor of a large city. So many levels to climb, and each one puts you more and more into the pocket of the PAC that's providing your Support. That's why we'll never again have an honest or decent person for president; all the honest people either walk away from the system in disgust, or else then end up Corrupted and dishonest if they continue climbing the levels.

The US military has the same problem, but magnified: For every officer, it's a life of 'up or out.' every year, there are more officers 'newly eligible' for a promotion to a particular rank than there are slots available at that rank, so if you're passed over for promotion ONCE, just once, your career is over; you'll never be promoted again. So any wide-eyed optimistic 2nd lieutenant who dreams of 'fixing the corruption' in the military (such as it's rampant homophobia, the treating of women as 'less than real people,' or the 'unofficial official' endorsement of Protestant Christianity as the Only True Faith that any servicemember needs and the One True Faith that ALL servicemembers should adhere to) they will either get 'washed out' for being a 'troublemaker,' or they will spend their career constantly emulating their current CO, trying to look like him, act like him, think like him, that by the time the optimist is in a position to do some good, they're already long gone, turned into yet another almost-clone of the officers gone before him, and perpetuating the very things he as a fresh recruit sought to change.

We need some way to change all this, some way to get more transparency and accountability at the top, but there's no way to get into a position to fix the Corruption without becoming Corrupted yourself.

*sigh*

I thought we were there already. Didn't the current administration run on the platform of being the most transparent administration ever?

I just don't see it. ;-)

Yup. that was the platform, 'total transparancy,' and then when the Administration was settling down and getting ready for business it was 'Oh, we can't go public with THAT, it'll endanger the lives of our intelligence operates overseas,' and 'Hmmm, is that report REALLY a true accounting? better keep it out of the public eye until we confirm,' and so on, and so forth, until we get to 'this multinational trade deal we're conducting in total secrecy is going to be great for America, but you'll have to trust me on this; we won't release the text until after it passes.'

One more example of corruption on the way to the place to clear out corruption.

Is there an Engineer/Law degree?

The USA knew about the many truck companies, in the USA, in the late 90s that were ignoring the regulations and emitting far more NOX when on the road, than in test. So why did they not improve the regulations then?

I've elected to edit some parts of the original entry. If you have any other concerns related to political correctness/sensitivities, please PM me. I will not address them further in the public forum.

As far as inaccuracies:

• Skoda and Audi are part of VW Group, and naturally share parts/resources. I indeed mentioned Audi as part of the emissions scandal. Skoda and SEAT were not mentioned as they are not available in the U.S., where the emissions scandal has been concentrated.
• BMW has publicly refuted claims it rigs emissions tests. Until proven otherwise, saying they do so is the true inaccuracy.

I'm happy to provide sources/explanations for any claim.

You should be picking on ALL the companies doing this, not just the VAG group, who actually came late to the party.

The US government knew of truck manufacturers doing the same in the 1990s......

Furthermore, the diesel cars in the USA form a tiny, less than 1% of the total.

Get all the old cars and trucks off the road and air purity will take a huge sudden leap in quality!

Two wrongs don't make a reich...

My Son has purchased "VW Venta". He has been happy with its performance. Earlier he had "FORD Fiesta" also a good car.

The Nazi link is somewhat unkind, and as used engenders an emotional response that serves no useful purpose - it loses sight of the solution.

The VW emissions issue has been discussed elsewhere on CR4. It has gone quiet at the moment, but media comment comes in from time to time, and one thing that puzzles me is the technical engineering aspect of the way the pollution is reduced -albeit 'contrived' by the engine management computer

I am ignorant of the VW car design in question, but apparently there is a 'device' switched in/out to control the pollution. Which must be an identifiable piece of equipment that needs servicing. And whilst secret software apps would be easy to hide, any self-respecting car mechanic must have been aware of the devices fitted to fool the test - right from the outset.

So how can those involved in 'regulation', putting the blame entirely on VW with indignant horror, be able to dodge their share of responsibility by claiming to have been fooled because they knew nothing about it - until now?

There is not a separate device used to cheat the tests, it is a functional mode of the cars ECU, there is a short explanation here. The tester would not be aware of this.

'....it is a functional mode of the cars ECU....'

If that is the case, then VW have demonstrated their cars, under properly controlled test conditions, are capable of meeting the emission standards.

Whilst VW might be accused of cheating, it seems the test standard itself is inadequate - and whose fault is that!

It's pretty obvious that the tests are deeply flawed. It's almost as though the politicians wanted to convince the public that they were getting tough with pollution but, at the same time, avoid upsetting the car manufacturers.

Thanks for the insight. I've edited the post so as to not take away from the true narrative of the blog entry.

"I am ignorant of the VW car design in question, but apparently there is a 'device' switched in/out to control the pollution. Which must be an identifiable piece of equipment that needs servicing. And whilst secret software apps would be easy to hide, any self-respecting car mechanic must have been aware of the devices fitted to fool the test - right from the outset."

It's not so much a device as a change in how the fuel injection and related timing is handled. The only actual physical device is the EGR valve.

To reduce NOx on a diesel there are two ways to do it. One is to use lower compression which reduces starting ability and efficiency the other is to retard the injection timing while extending the injection duration.

By injecting the fuel later in the compression cycle (after the piston is at top dead center) the effective compression is reduced. lso the fuel burn time is slowed down by changing the injection from one large heavy short duration squirt (1 - 3 degrees of crankshaft rotation) that combusts with detonation burn characteristics (producing the characteristic diesel knock sound) the fuel is injected slower by pulse width modulating the injector to give many tiny back to back micro squirts over a much longer duration (5 - 15 degrees of crankshaft rotation) reducing the peak combustion chamber pressures and temperatures.

The problem is that the way diesels make their more efficient conversion of fuel energy into mechanical motion is by using the detonation burn process which produces high cylinder pressures and heat but over a very short amount of crankshaft rotation which transfers more of the generated pressure and energy into moving the piston down before the high temperature produced in the detonation of the fuel can be absorbed by the cylinder head and walls.

By by extending the injection pulse duration and stating it after the piston has passed top dead center the fuel combustion cycle becomes less detonation like plus has a much longer and lower pressure combustion cycle which allows far more of the heat that is generated to be absorbed by the cylinder head and walls opposed to having been transferred into just moving the piston down.

On top of that by opening the EGR valve an allowing more spent oxygen depleted gases to make up the intake air charge the next power stroke is further diminished in efficiency being there is insufficient oxygen to burn the next injected charge of fuel as fast and as efficiently as it could.

That's how you reduce NOx production in a diesel at the expenses of fuel efficiency and power without having an actual emission device other than an EGR valve in place.

To tcmtech 27

Thanks for taking the trouble to explain in detail. It is appreciated.

Is the EGR part of the standard engine control system? ie, it is there anyway. If it is, then knowledge it's clandestine use to cheat the test, could reasonably be denied.

Even so, your explanation sounds like basic knowledge that a qualified diesel engineer would have, and as such, the potential to cheat would have been well known, and certainly common knowledge amongst the automotive design engineers of all diesel engine car manufacturers.

And with such considerable difference in emissions between the VW engines on test and when on the road, cannot possibly have passed unnoticed by other car manufacturers, because they would never be able to compete with VW on a fair footing.

And since they are competing in the real world, how do they do this?

"And with such considerable difference in emissions between the VW engines on test and when on the road, cannot possibly have passed unnoticed by other car manufacturers, because they would never be able to compete with VW on a fair footing."

Oh, the other diesel passenger car companies had probably noticed early on, but they never ratted VW out to the inspectors.....

"And since they are competing in the real world, how do they do this?"

.....because they were probably pulling the same or similar 'feature' so they had comparable in lab/on highway performance figures.

Many oter manufacturers DO EXACTLY THE SAME THING. Trucks since the 1990s, known by the US government since then!! VAG are quite late to the party!!

Click on pic for animation...

Hmmm, too bad there isn't some sort of, for lack of a better term, afterburner, that could do a 'second burn' of the NOx-heavy exhaust outside the engine. It doesn't even need to be connected to the drive train, it could be a small turbine-like engine to run the alternator and/or A/C compressor to take that load off the Main Engine.

Or does that make too much sense for the Automotive industry to follow?

For you and Horace40.

Not really. That's basically what the afterburner for the DEF system does with the soot and whatever else it catches without adding any beneficial fuel economy to the vehicle. It basically just burns even more fuel (sometimes a lot more) to make your emissions supposedly better.

The first thing commercial truckers (and people with newer diesel pickups that want to get the real fuel mileage diesels were known for) do to improve fuel efficiency is get rid of the EGR or at least shut it down. Second is get rid of the whole DEF afterburner, soot filter and catalytic converter systems.

In most cases that can pick up an easy 10 - 20% fuel milage plus cut off a huge amount of time wasted if and when the truck decided it has to park and go into a full emission system regen mode while burning the exhaust filter and converter clean which on some trucks can take up and occasionally over an hour.

If California's goal is to reduce gasoline consumption by 50% within the next few years, then diesel fuel may be next. Maybe an engine that runs on premium domestic wines is in the works?

"Sounds like Dan Quayle's fuzzy math."

Congradulations! You got it right, please accept this potatoe as a reward.