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Diesels Aren't Dirty Anymore

Posted December 13, 2007 9:53 AM

From CNN.com/living:

Not too long ago, uttering the phrase "diesel engine" was enough to elicit a wince from car buyers whose memories of previous-generation diesels often consisted of knocking engine noise, that distinctly-diesel fragrance, and plumes of blue smoke curling from the tailpipe. No more, however. Most of the new generation of diesel engines are being touted, and rightly so, as "clean diesel" power plants. They run on the ultra-low-sulfur diesel fuel that became available in the United States in October of 2006. Experts predict that diesel sales will increase by about 300 percent over the next 10 years. That's partly because diesel engines generally deliver anywhere from 20 to 40 percent better fuel economy than gasoline-powered engines, depending on the vehicle and engine size.

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#1

Re: Diesels Aren't Dirty Anymore

12/14/2007 7:59 AM

And after 4 or 5 years of hard use with no servicing, how many particles are pumping out? Thats the problem as I see it, older eengines and lack of service,

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#2
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Re: Diesels Aren't Dirty Anymore

12/14/2007 8:46 AM

The MOT in the UK is supposed to check such things, the TÜV does do this now....no compliance means no certificate, simple.

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#3
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Re: Diesels Aren't Dirty Anymore

12/14/2007 9:09 AM

supposed ...Yeh..

but how come we all follow vehicles belching out foul smelling sooty exhaust?

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#4
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Re: Diesels Aren't Dirty Anymore

12/14/2007 9:22 AM

Its a problem that we see here very seldom, perhaps the UK Police and MOT people are not sufficiently trained/interested in fixing the problem........

Here we get a Tax rebate if we fit a Diesel car with a filter or buy a new one with a filter installed, not having the filter means you pay more tax. The filter is paid for in about 2 1/2 years or less depending upon the make etc., (amortized?), so it is worth doing....

It also reduces the amount of CO produced from the tail pipe but of course increases the CO2 when doing so...as the CO and CO2 are lumped together anyway (which a lot of people do not understand or realise) it does not make any tax differences....

Fine dust is also reduced (captured) and as far as I am aware, is fully burnt up in the filter monolith once it reaches proper working temperatures....the filter is basically a petrol catalytic converter without the heavy metals......the ceramic filter should never need cleaning....or replacement.

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#5
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Re: Diesels Aren't Dirty Anymore

12/14/2007 9:42 AM

When you take any diesel car for an MOT test in the UK, the tester will tell you what you need to do to get the car through the emissions test. Usually it involves thrashing it down the nearest straight stretch of road in a low gear 'till it's really hot, then straight in for the test!

Don't forget, they would like you to come back next year, so a failure for emissions is the last thing they want.

Also, they make sure you understand that if the engine blows up under test conditions, flat throttle for a time, it's you're responsibility, not theirs.

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#6
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Re: Diesels Aren't Dirty Anymore

12/14/2007 10:29 AM

You wrote:-

Also, they make sure you understand that if the engine blows up under test conditions, flat throttle for a time, it's you're responsibility, not theirs.

That is exactly the same here. I have never had an engine damaged, old or new by this....so if your engine is really on its last legs, is that a problem if it dies.....it really should be on the scrapheap challenge, not the road!!!

Its one thing to be poisoned by others on the road in front, its quite another to be one of those making the poison.....make your choice!

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#9
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Re: Diesels Aren't Dirty Anymore

12/14/2007 6:34 PM

Fine dust is also reduced (captured) and as far as I am aware, is fully burnt up in the filter monolith once it reaches proper working temperatures....the filter is basically a petrol catalytic converter without the heavy metals......the ceramic filter should never need cleaning....or replacement.

Almost. The material is usually the same (cordierite or silicon carbide are the most common), but the construction is slightly different. Most catalysts are flow through substrates - all the channels are open at both ends.

Filters, on the other hand tend to be wall flow substrates, with alternate channels blocked at one end and the others blocked at the opposite end, forcing the gas to pass through the material of the wall, leaving the soot trapped in the inlet channels.

sorry about quality, couldn't get the other one to load.

The soot needs a minimum temperature, higher than normal exhaust gas temperatures, to burn off. This reaction temperature can be lowered by catalyst action, whether a separate upstream catalyst or a catalyst coating on the filter. The reaction temperature can be reached, periodically, by running the engine rich, having post injection pulses or injecting fuel directly into the exhaust and igniting it.

Whether or not a filter needs cleaning depends on how the vehicle is used. If it gets a decent (10+ miles at say 40 -50 mph) run regularly, then it will regenerate. If it's only ever used to drive through town on short trips to go to the shop, then it is likely to become blocked. It's the difference between a long distance truck and a refuse vehicle; the CRT® will work well on the former, but not on the latter.

This is also part of the reason the MOT tester advises a decent run before the smoke test. The run burns up some/most of the soot deposited in the exhaust system, ensuring that it doesn't become dislodged during the test and give a false high. It's not quite the cheat that PlbMak thinks it is! It also ensures the engine's warm and less prone to damage from a free acceleration (but you two knew that anyway).

As to the fine particles, there's a bit of an odd phenomenon there. Contrary to popular belief, not all particles are equal, and not all particles are carbon. A very large number of particles are liquid condensates. They become liquid as the gases cool on leaving the tailpipe. Lots of work has been done on their dispersal characteristics.

In an untreated exhaust these would precipitate onto the surfaces of solid matter, making them bigger and sticky. In a treated exhaust, without the precipitation sites, they tend to nucleate of their own accord, forming a very large number or very very small particles. So the tailpipe gases from a filtered system actually contain more nano-particles that an untreated one, but 90+% less mass, and very little elemental carbon. These nano-particles get much further down into the lungs than the black smoky stuff you used to see (roughly, if you can see it, it can't get inside you); they have also been shown to pass through the blood/brain barrier.

Legislation will be changing for a total mass measurement to a particle count, in order to a) get a handle on the current situation and then b) do something about it. After all, you can't control what you can't measure and we are only just developing the technology top measure these things.

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#11
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Re: Diesels Aren't Dirty Anymore

12/14/2007 8:36 PM

I have given you a positive vote for each of your last 2 posts, they were both outstanding, I learnt a lot. Thanks again.

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#8
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Re: Diesels Aren't Dirty Anymore

12/14/2007 6:03 PM

Still fewer PM10s than for a similar petrol engine. And as diesels last longer (on average twice the life), the life cycle costs are far lower.

(I'm not betraying my diesel-head credentials, am I?)

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#7

Re: Diesels Aren't Dirty Anymore

12/14/2007 6:01 PM

They run on the ultra-low-sulfur diesel fuel that became available in the United States in October of 2006.

Congratulation US, catching up with the Old World at last. Europe has been running on sub-50 ppm sulphur diesel fuel since the late 90s, and on sub-10 ppm for the last couple of years (Sweden are world leaders and are running on 0-2 ppm stuff, they've always been ahead of the pack). It's several years now since European sales of diesel cars exceeded those of petrol (gasoline) cars.

Here are the US EPA site's comments - US stepping from 500 ppm to 15 ppm.

The reason this is important (apart from the removal od SOx from the atmosphere) is that sub-50 ppm fuels allow the use of precious metals catalysts in the exhaust. Sulphur poisons the catalysts. Oxidation catalysts remove most of the unburnt hydrocarbons and oxidise CO to CO2 - which has health benefits, if not greenhouse benefits (far more difficult to gas yourself on a catalysed exhaust stream) and reduce particulate mass by about 10 - 15% , by oxidising the carbon to CO2 and oxidising some of the volatile condensates.

The big reduction in particulate mass comes from the use of filters and the best designs need no outside intervention. I don't know details of PasCar systems; I believe most of these use back pressure feedback to run the engine rich, briefly, or initiate a post-ignition fuel pulse in order that the exhaust gases ignite after leaving the cylinder, to raise the temperature of the exhaust stream and thus force a regeneration (burning off of collected soot) of the filter. The systems vary between manufacturer. I don't know of any retrofit systems available for PasCar (i.e. systems not designed by the manufacturer).

What I do know about are commercial vehicle exhausts. Here a different system is often used, where a combination of an oxicat and a filter are used. The cat changes the composition of the exhaust gases in such a way that the reaction temperature of the soot is lowered into the normal exhaust gas temperature range and so it is burnt off continuously, resulting in a more or less constant back pressure trace. These systems have been proven to remove 99% of particulate matter by mass.

Other bits of the article:

The E320 BLUETEC boasts 40 percent better fuel mileage than a comparable gasoline-powered model, and its EPA city/highway rating of 27/37 mpg means it can cruise more than 700 miles on a single tank of fuel, said Patrik Borenius, manager of advanced product planning for Mercedes.

No-one in Europe would touch a brand new car with such a high fuel consumption. My six year old Skoda Octavia does over 52 - 54 mpg on mixed driving (drops off to about 48 on long journeys at 85 mph!). Most of us couldn't afford to run a 37 mpg car.

"And right now, with all the concern about the environment, and fuel prices up over $3 a gallon again, and oil at around $100 a barrel, we are clearly hearing from our customers that they want something cleaner and more fuel-efficient."

I'd love to pay $3 a gallon. Currently we're paying £1.06 per litre - that's $9.56 a gallon. I can't remember when we paid $3/gal (33p/litre), about 1990 I think.

"But today's clean-diesel engines are as clean as gasoline-powered engines," says Chrysler's Altermatt. "The standards have really improved, and that's partly due to the input from the government, in terms of implementing stricter emissions standards. But we've developed diesels in a responsible manner."

They have to be as clean, by law. ALL vehicles have to meet the emissions legislation - the only differences are based on vehicle weight, not engine type (unless it's gas (LPG) powered!).

For the commercials, the following regs apply:

We're currently inside the red box, next year we have to get to the green box. As you can see, since 1996, the Particulate Mass emitted by HGVs has reduced by 92%; NOx levels are currently half of what they were. As is the case with most engineering "opportunities for improvement", the reduction of NOx from an engine is usually accompanied by an increase in PM and vice versa. A lot of research and technology has gone into developing engines and engine+aftertreatment arrangements which can reduce both of these simultaneously.

"And in addition to now meeting those higher standards, these engines often provide the customer with engine performance that is the equivalent of gas engines, and sometimes better. And in many cases, the vehicles powered by diesel engines are more fun to drive, because they have better low-end response."

Oh yes. Much more fun. I had a 1994 Peugeot 405 1.9 litre TDI diesel estate. It was so much fun leaving boy racers standing at lights - not only outgunned by a diesel, but by a woman driver. Sweet.

When Volvo decided to enter the World Touring Car Championships (1996 I think), they did so with their large (740 size) diesel estates, they stormed the entire series. So much so that the rules were changed so that this style of car was outlawed; the petrol boys didn't like it at all! I heard that the biggest problem the drivers had was adjusting to the lower engine note (diesels top out about 5-6000 rpm where a petrol would be 12 -15000rpm). Apparently, when first test driving the Volvos, they punted a number into the scenery because they didn't realise they were still doing 100+ mph coming into a corner. They had to recalibrate their ear-foot co-ordination!

Annual emission reductions will be equivalent to removing the pollution from more than 90 percent of today's trucks and buses, when the current heavy-duty vehicle fleet has been completely replaced in 2030, says the organization.

Which is where the retrofitters come in. The European LEZs (Low Emissions Zones) require that all vehicles, of whatever age, meet a certain emissions standard. This is usually less stringent than that required for new vehicles, starting at Euro III minimum and phasing up to Euro IV over a few years. There are a number of companies offering exhaust aftertreatments that can take a Euro II or Euro III vehicle and reduce its emissions to Euro IV or even, in the case of SCRT(R), to Euro V levels. The LEZs either offer incentives to fit the systems or reduce road tax/entry tax to vehicles that meet the limits. So the fleet emissions will be reduced far more quickly that the fleet turnover rate.

In April, the E320 BLUETEC was named the "2007 World Green Car" at the 2007 New York International Auto Show.
Is that "International" as in "World Series"?



The Large Vehicles regulations have always lagged behind the PasCar regulations, but that gap is now closing. The Off-Road (Construction & Agricultural) Sector is still some way behind, but plans are in place to bring these up to the On-road standard in the next 5 or so years. It will be a quicker pace than for the on-roads because much of the technology exists, and is in series production, thus making it more economic for the smaller quantities in this sector. There is still some work to be done, however, to be able to use these technologies is the very different operating conditions found off-road.

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#10
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Re: Diesels Aren't Dirty Anymore

12/14/2007 8:33 PM

I love the post, very well put, many thanks.

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#12

Re: Diesels Aren't Dirty Anymore

12/16/2007 7:09 AM

In New Zealand we move most goods via heavy truck, since the national railways system was gutted, then sold off overseas (to an Australian Company - Toll Rail) for annual rental of NZ$1 (Yes folks, that is correct "One Dollar per year rental - for a National Railway system".

Railway maintenance costs are paid for by the long-suffering taxpayer (as usual).

Meanwhile we now have 70+ tonne behemoths roaring down highways at 120kM/hour, or faster, defying almost every attempt by following traffic to overtake, on roadways designed for maximum 10 tonnes and 80kM/hour.....If you plan on being a tourist with a rental car here, be careful, please.

Personally we run 2 Diesels here, Toyota LandCruisers, of late 1980's vintage, which makes them each nearly 20 years old.

One with a 3.4litre Toyota 3B non-turbo motor, that motor being made by Hino trucks for a 7 tonne truck.(Toyota owns Hino)

The other with a same size 13B-T Turbo motor from the same factory.

Each of these just idles along at 2,400RPM at 100kM/hour, and providing they don't run short of engine oil, are expected to last over 1,000,000kM without having to remove the head at all.

We checked specifications obtained from "The Dog and Lemon Guide".

That is published in New Zealand, and their website is here:

http://www2.dogandlemon.com/

As they say: "The World's toughest car guide, written with with and style by complete cynics", and you can purchase one from the website.

Reading and digesting all the very interesting information therein, may well take a day, or two.

Various Motor Manufacturers have threatened to sue Dog & Lemon,and their response is always: "Go right ahead, we would love to see you in Court, because we can prove all we say".

So far they have not been sued in Court.

The thing that should be remembered, is that every car or truck takes huge amounts of energy and resources to manufacture, and only a minute portion of wear may take place before a car/truck body, engine or other part is deemed fit for the scrapyard.

Thus they should be carefully chosen for longevity, to minimise the Planetary resource and energy Bank "withdrawals".

Just an aside, because these engines just "coast along", they don't puff out particulates, except at instant of start-up.

Kind Regards....

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#13
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Re: Diesels Aren't Dirty Anymore

12/17/2007 8:13 AM

Just an aside, because these engines just "coast along", they don't puff out particulates, except at instant of start-up.

Not true I'm afraid. Just because you can't see a puff of black smoke, doesn't mean tht there aren't any particulates coming out. Petrol engines don't puff, but the certainly produce particles.

This is mostly due to the fact that, despite the name, particles are not (necessarily) solid, and rather than elemental (pure) carbon, a large number (but small mass) for particles are actually liquid - condensates of volatile gas components, usually nitrates. Some are the combustion products of the engine oil, or rather the additives in the engine oil.

Also, your engines are not coasting at 2,500 rpm at 100kph/70mph, you're comfortably in the power band. I have a 1.9 litre diesel, which does about 3000 rppm at 70 mph and tops out around 5000-6000 (rarely go there). A 4 litre bus engine tops at 2800 rpm, so I'd guess your 3.4 litre engines to top out around 4000-5000rpm. Since your engines are tuned for the power/efficiency trade-off rather than NOx/PM trade-off, their combustion temperatures will be well into the PM production range.

As for your puff on start-up, that's more likely to be the removal if particulates deposited and aggregated on the internal surfaces of the exhaust system than newly produced particulates from the engine. Run your finger around the inside of the tailpipe. What colour is it?

Sorry to sound a bit...umm...whatever, but yours is a misconception that many people share. It is not widely realised that now that we can't see anything coming out of the tailpipe, it's actually more dangerous than before, as the tiny particles get further into the lungs and blood stream.

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#14
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Re: Diesels Aren't Dirty Anymore

12/17/2007 8:34 AM

I love it when you talk dirty....

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#15
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Re: Diesels Aren't Dirty Anymore

12/17/2007 9:00 AM

Stroke

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Re: Diesels Aren't Dirty Anymore

02/24/2010 2:44 PM

You are soooooo bad, ER!!!

Do I take it you didn't tell him about the thorns?

-e (rare cameo appearance)

(Has anybody seen my cat o' nine-tails? Quickly now! I've got a hot date tonite and I'm already running way late)

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#18
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Re: Diesels Aren't Dirty Anymore

02/26/2010 4:16 AM

You should see what his claws did to my petals...

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#16

Re: Diesels Aren't Dirty Anymore

12/18/2007 10:58 AM

I had a 1986 VW Dasher diesel that made 50 to the gallon. On "dirty" diesel fuel. The mfgr's in this country resisted building them to aid the status quo or other unknowns. I believe if diesel is made cleaner and more efficient here, we will probably see low sulfur fuel prices double that of gasoline now. The best combo I've seen yet is a hybrid small diesel (2cyl) with gen and battery pack. 85 mpg true, and this was done in the early 90's. Peace, PM, PyroMotor Dev., Stirling Engines run on anything that burns, even sunlight.

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#19

Re: Diesels Aren't Dirty Anymore

04/01/2017 10:36 AM

Just browsing and came across this. There have been some developments since Dec 2010!

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