Importance of teaching evolution noted

Evolution...a species adapting itself to a changed enviroment.

Creationism.....the creator, choose the name you like, created the heavens(universe, via big bang) and evolution was part of his plan.

We were meant to find dinosuars and the like and to figure out that evolution is indeed occuring and has occured. He wants us to learn as we mature so we can better appreciate his accomplishments.

Those "Science advisers" along with others do have a hidden agenda.

If Evolution is ever proved (all careful study actually disproves Evolution), then there is only a single set of conclusions to be made.

Evolution says:

We all came from primordial slime, somehow adding complex information all exactly as it was required, in complete animalcules, then became cells, then ....monkeys then man.

This violates all known laws of physics.

That also means that there are no moral laws, because everything is equal.

No moral Laws mean no responsibility to be truthful, honest, faithful, good....you name it.

Anything goes, if you choose to do it.

If it feels good, do it.....

Creationism says:

Each of is here for a short time only, the three-score years and ten, more or less.....

There are Moral Laws, which are designed into each, via conscience. (beautiful compound word means "understanding science).

Thus there are Moral Laws, Standards and advice we ignore at our peril.

We are to be kind and helpful to our Families, and others too.

After each of us leaves this Earth, we have a destination.

Each of us has the right to choose our individual Destination.

What we choose to do here on this Earth, determines once and for all, at the instant of what is commonly referred to as "death", a permanent place in one of two places: Heaven or Hell.

So folks, best to make the wise choice here, rather than find out too late to change your situation.

After all: Eternity is forever.

Kind Regards....

Well said my friend! James

Sorry, Sparky, but nothing you stated follows logically. You draw conclusions from statements that are not related. How do you draw from a seed of life that there are no moral laws? What has morality have to do with evolution anyway?

Creationism does not say we are here for a short time only or that there are moral laws or beautiful compound = understanding science. Obviously, everything dies whether you postulate evolution or creation.

Evolution has it holes, but there is a preponderance of evidence on its side. So does Newton's Laws of Gravity, but they are very useful tools to describe the universe around us.

I have a real issue with statements that say because we don't (yet) understand something fully it must prove that it operates on the principles of creationism. That is a weak argument and it is not by any stretch of the imagination science. I don't treat religion as science as well as I can't treat science as religion.

You will get no argument from me that "we" don't completely understand evolution. However, I think that "we" really don't understand the Bible, either. And that's the whole problem. We have too many people that are absolutely sure they do; yet they don't even agree with each other!

I will not spend a great deal of time illustrating the prophetic fulfillment of current state of mankind as it relates to a 'nEW wORLD oRDER' I will briefly state that a fundamental system of beliefs will propagate the world in a means to 'unify' the globe. Many now feel science is that new system and is being used not to solely 'understand the universe and all it's inhabitants' but to provide data that may persuade, dissuade, denounce and subjugate the masses.

Man now peers ever deeper into the atomic workings of matter. Man now peers ever deeper into the far reaches of the universe. We find every answer to contain 2 questions, an equation that it does not take a mathematician to figure is a losing contest. The smaller we focus or the greater we pan our sights the more everything is unified and proven intertwined and dependent upon one another. Science then creates experiments of astronomical potential. Mini black-holes, super colliding atoms, molecule disturbing microwaves, nuclear reactors and on and on and on.

We create and manipulate genetic matter. As if we were God. Unleashing a hell of biological plague and social misgivings as we question the origins of AIDS and defects and cancers. Families are no longer necessary as the lab provides all our needs. Life at times seems as disposable as the batteries that fill our ever growing landfills. Being discarded and buried beneath the earth for all to ignore. Having once powered little trinkets and distractions to a greater purpose.

To what end? Feeding mankind will not destroy us. Protecting life will not destroy us. Immortality? Supreme knowledge of ourselves? What is the goal? So the human race can survive? Survive what, ourselves? We act like little children. Scared of the dark and being alone we play with matches and make acquaintance with those whose ideas and motives are unclear even dangerous. We do this for our need for companionship not wanting to believe that there exists a good and an evil - how we argue these concepts!

The farther we look outward into deep space or inward to nano-space the less our ability to focus on that which is here and now. Mankind is ego driven. We are in a very bad place right now, though it does not have to be that way. Now as technology explains away compassion. As science ignores the ills of our brothers while attempting to experiment away a Higher Power.

Science becomes pitted against itself when this occurs, and religion does not satisfy man's need for truth as the organized faiths preach intolerance and hatred. They themselves subject to to the blindness of power and ego; asking we not see the hypocrisy while the social manipulation continues. Men clamor about trying to make sense of it all.

The Big Books speaks to this endlessly. As does the Tao, the Torah, and the Qur'an (Koran).

We are like rats clawing at the cage trying to get out. Scratching and snarling and dieing in vain when we do so. Never realizing that the real danger lies outside the cage. Yet we persist. On and on we persist. We neglect what our fathers told us. We ignore the ancients as superstitious and misled. In a world where we talk around the globe at the speed of light we claim we cannot see the starving in our village.

Science and religion go hand and hand. They are like the poles 2 magnets.

Though neither fully God nor fully Beast I exist between, possessing both.

I need not look to the Heavens for Him. For He is within me.

cr3

God created everything. Science is discovering how He did it. There would be no evolution without God.

I am a strong Christian, but instead of reading the Bible literally, I choose to see it as stories based on facts, allegories, parables and history, with a bit of humanity thrown in. What is taught relating to how we should behave toward God is 100% true.

God does not lie. God created radiocarbon so we could use it to date things. Those fossils were real animals and they did evolve, because that is how God did it. Whales came from a small hoofed animal that lived by feeding in shallow water. The fossil remains for horses shows obvious evolution. DNA has shown connections between Neaderthal and modern man, plus connections to other primates.

The Hubble telescope taking a photo of an area of the sky 1/10 the size of the full moon shows 10,000 galaxies, each with billions of stars. Imagine how many galaxies you would see if you had a photo for each area of the sky in all directions. The universe is HUGE and God created all of it.

It is wonderful to believe without seeing, but it is stupid not to believe what you see. Those literalist Bible-thumpers who insist that Creation was in 4,000 BC would rather believe the words of men, inspired men, but still men, over God's creation. I do not believe that a "day" for God is the same as a day for Man. There was no day or night until God created it, and it was created for Man.

However, teaching atheism is the same as teaching any religion, because atheism is the faith [unprovable] that there is no God. Teach evolution, yes, but allow that it it may be that God designed it that way.

Hello Taganan,

Re Evolution:

I realize that there are many who call themselves Christian, and use the Bible un-literally, ".....instead of reading the Bible literally, I choose to see it as stories based on facts, allegories, parables and history, with a bit of humanity thrown in.....".

"...I choose to see it...." - That dear Taganan is the story of every man or woman who ever lived, unless they were prepared to humble themselves, and admit they didn't know it all, at all.

Summed up most succinctly by a song made popular by Frank Sinatra: "I did it my way".

That's the single reason the World is in its present parlous state.

At the instant of death here, the spirit (The real and eternal Living Soul) leaves the shell/overcoat/body (the protoplasm), and faces the destination that it chose during the short time on Earth.

There is no evidence whatsoever that evolution is true.

All facts, scientific and other, prove exactly the opposite.

You may ask: Do I believe that the Bible is the literal Word of God?

My reply is yes, that a loving Creator did give a single Manufacturer's Handbook, with enough contained therein for all to understand.

There are basic questions which every thinking person asks themselves at one stage of their life:

1. Who am I?
2. Where did I come from?
3. What am I doing here?
4. Where am I going to?
5. Did this all happen by accident?
6. Is there grand and generous design behind it all?
7. What will happen to me when I die?
8. Why is there good?
9. Why is there evil?
10. Is evolution only a theory?
    

There are other questions, of course, but those are quite basic, as I'm sure you agree.

The answers to all the above questions are found in the first few Chapters of the Book of Genesis = The Book of Beginning.

If you have ever really studied the Bible, there are many things which could not have happened by accident.

Simple Example = Name Methusalah - Meaning: In the year in which he dies, it shall come.

So, for 969 years, from the birth and naming of Methusalah, and no rain at all before the Noahic flood, people would have perhaps puzzled why he was called that name.

In the year which Methusalah died, the Noahic flood came.

There are hundreds of thousands of specific prophecies, and the possibility of all of those coming to pass, is statistically impossible.

Likewise, the self-ordering of life in an organic soup, to complex structures, all by itself is impossible, and against all laws of science too.

There has not been enough time since the Foundation of the Universe, for such impossible self-organization to have happened - that is a statistical fact.

I certainly do believe in adaptive selection, and that means the DNA code for each separate species has already designed into it, all the possibly needed variables, of which some are switched on, more or less, while others are switched off, more or less, to suit the particular circumstances of an individual's life.

So...If you and your wife were white European ancestry, the Gene for melanin (skin Colour) switch-on is not switched on very much.

If you shifted to a place like Nubia, and you and your descendants never intermarried with the locals, (who are quite black skin colour), as each generation went by, your descendants who survived, would not notice, because the process is quite slow, would become first brown skinned, then darker and darker.

This is Adaptive Selection at work, each generation of your descendants would receive a wee bit more Melanin Gene code switch-on.

That would ensure the survival of your descendants.

"But my favorite example is the British Pepper Moth. In a census of pepper moths conducted by Oxonian scientists before the Industrial revolution, the majority of these moths were found to be very white with tiny black spots on the wings (as if they had been sprinked with pepper). Many years later, another census of these creatures found them to have significantly more black spots than their ancestors. The reason? Because Pepper Moths live on the walls and roofs of buildings and in the tops of trees. Before the IR, they could camoflauge themselves on the white walls of buildings or light colored bark of some trees. After the IR, these buildings and trees were significantly darker due to soot deposited from early factories. Darker moths were less likely to be obvious prey for passing birds, and therefore were more likely to survive and pass their genes along than whiter moths."

Have a read of this:

Science and Faith: Mutually Assured Destruction?

Because the egg inside your Mother was actually fully assembled, along with all her thousands of others, soon after your Mother became a fertilized ovum in her Mother's womb, and her Mother likewise, etc all the way back, there is no possibility that effects found in any creature's life's journey can alter any species whatsoever.

Mitochondrial DNA proves exactly that.

Any alterations are slight, and are the result of selective adaptation, as I explained above.

I trust you may now research the 10 basic questions, and carefully examine the evidence.

Please ensure you look in the correct Manufacturer's Handbook for your answers.

I would point out that I am not some sort of a religious nutcase.

I am not an uneducated dope, but have properly and carefully researched the subject, check my Profile please.

"Conclusion:

Charles Darwin was a tragically mistaken man who drifted from a childlike trust in One who helped him run to school on time into an abyss of hopelessness and agnosticism. While the spiritual journey of a Christian is a journey out of darkness into Christ's marvelous light, that of Charles Darwin was a slippery slide out of Gospel light (although not saving spiritual sight) into the sheer "blackness of darkness for ever."

Darwin's unbelief, like that of so many people today, had its roots in a mind which first rejected the revelation of God in the Bible and then was unwilling to accept the revelation of God which God Himself has given in nature. This religion of revelation, of the Bible, of the Lord Jesus Christ, will keep us tuned to truth, hope, and life in God, and away from evolutionism, humanism, and atheism, only as we allow it to exercise its power in our hearts. The tragedy of Charles Darwin is that he never did."

Refer: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/darwin.html

Kind Regards....

"All facts, scientific and other, prove exactly the opposite."

Prove that statement.

Hello Anonymous Hero,

You probably would not accept anything which is different from your present beliefs, however I ask you to consider the following:

For Truth to be Truth, and remain Truth, it can never change, alter, be modified.

Truth if it is to be absolute must be fixed and unalterable, or it cannot be Truth.

Truth cannot be altered by opinion, thought, circumstances, theory, fashion, or idea.

In the case of opposing viewpoints, regarding a particular set of circumstances, the Truth of that matter cannot alter, no matter how much opposing viewers state their opinions.

Sincerity of Belief is never a substitute for Truth. - I learned that many years ago.

What I'm saying, my friend, is that I do not have to prove the Truth, it stands unassailable, regardless of me, you or any other Living Soul.

What I'm asking is this: Please do research, with an open mind.

Do what I did, ask God if He is real, to show you.

You have nothing to lose, and everything to gain.

The Bible states God as saying: "Come, let us reason together" - He does not expect you to throw your intelligence out the window.

If you genuinely want to know God, and search for Him with all your heart (inner being) you shall find Him. That's a promise.

Let's know your progress, please.

You may always send me a PM, if you wish.

Kind Regards, as always....

Well said AGAIN! Man has everything to gain by believing, and nothing to loose . If you choose to NOT believe, well, YOU LOOSE EVERYTHING, AND HAVE ETERNITY TO REGRET IT! James

Sparky,

First, please do not misconstrue anything I say as a personal attack nor an attack on your religious beliefs. I like you and respect your beliefs.

However, you side stepped Post #8. You stated that all facts state that evolution is not true and points to the opposite and I asked you to prove that assertion. The Theory of Evolution is science, therefore subject to the rules of the scientific method. That is why I challenged your statement. Show me the data.

I fully agree that the truth is immutable. The problem is, when we believe we have the truth, sometimes we get evidence that is contrary to our understanding of the truth. We recheck our data and in some cases modify our understanding so that we have something that is immutable. Herein lies the catch. We are human and we are perceiving beings. As such we are subject to error. Descartes spoke at length on this subject. We are subject to our perceptional filters. There may be truth and there may be absolute truth, but it is often misperceived due to human error.

This leads to yet another question. you stated that you believe that the Bible is literal. However, which version is the version that would like to use? Why this version versus any other?

I believe that all of us are free to chose that version (or any other religion) for themselves, but it does beg the question of why do we have so much disagreement over which one is the "correct" path? I think that each of us reconciles that in their own way, but it is a daunting problem which has been keeping scholars employed for many, many centuries.

I believe that all of us are free to chose that version (or any other religion) for themselves, but it does beg the question of why do we have so much disagreement over which one is the "correct" path? I think that each of us reconciles that in their own way, but it is a daunting problem which has been keeping scholars employed for many, many centuries.

My experience with this topic has proven the personal nature of a true faith. Say you are working on an experiment in the lab. You have devoted a great deal of energy, time and resources. You have been diligent. Thorough and painstaking in every detail. The one day much to your surprise a result appears that is undeniable.You check and recheck and there it is. No doubt about. But the result was sudden, unexpected and surprising and the experiment cannot be repeated in your lab for others to witness. But all who see the result can not deny something has happened. They just can't say what. Some claim a simple anomaly. Some say this and yet others say that. So what do we do now?

I live with that truth in my heart. I have seen what is my truth. Even when I wasn't looking I could not help but see that which was so vague, unfamiliar and undesirable once before. Overcome with joy I share my experience, strength and hope with others - always remembering how I wish to be perceived.

===========

Having asked my self similar questions regarding conflict, I did what I would do for any matter in life that I deemed important - I studied. I have learned that when it gets down to it, the goal of all faiths is the same: "Love one another and praise your higher power by doing so".

===========

All who seek an answer will find one. Not all will seek. And yet fewer are willing to lay aside their prejudices and perform the experiment.

cr3

Yeah. I got get in here, just a tad. Although I appreciate your enthusiasm and conviction, the high majority of which I agree with, I know that I must be careful when applying my personal beliefs to the scientific community. And, vice versa. Although a day may come when the media and/or majority are less eager to pit the 2 against one another that day is not today.

If I am going to speak of ANY ancient text in a scientific community I must beware my prejudices and biases. I am here to learn - primarily how to unite the two for they have long been separated. Long before my humble flesh walked this earth. And if I am to accomplish anything it shall be through attraction rather than promotion.

So, my point more directly. I must try to remember that this is an engineering forum and a very even minded one. And so I choose to double check my personal statements making certain that they are easily identified as such and that anything does not slip past in my fervor which will not hold up to scrutiny by my scientific peers.

Warm regards,

Charles

"Because the egg inside your Mother was actually fully assembled, along with all her thousands of others, soon after your Mother became a fertilized ovum in her Mother's womb, and her Mother likewise, etc all the way back, there is no possibility that effects found in any creature's life's journey can alter any species [genetically] whatsoever."

100% correct. So, what is your point here? The theory of Evolution never postulated that it did.

I think that you understand the Theory of Evolution as well as I understand the Bible, which only proves we both have something to learn.

Everyone chooses to believe or not believe certain things and to interpret holy writings in various ways. Each one thinks his interpretation is right, and it is, for him. The problem comes when people try to impose their interpretation on others, especially when reality opposes their dogma. I readily admit that I do not know it all nor understand everything perfectly. No human does. Each one has to believe in his own way.

I believe in things I cannot apprehend with my senses and I do not reject those things I can apprehend with my senses. I am amazed at how close the Bible actually is to scientific reality, with a bit of interpretation. That is why I see no conflict between science and the Bible and feel that science is the study of the works of God. Because science is of Man, its understanding of how God made everything work can also have human errors.

I know the spirit continues because I saw the spirit of my father-in-law dancing, jumping, waving and smiling beside his casket as all his friends and relatives came in at his funeral. In the spirit the lame leg which prevented him from dancing and jumping was healed. I also saw him again at the cemetery, saying goodbye to his family. I know the power of the Spirit because I have "gone down" in the Spirit, resisting all the way, yet I was on the floor. So I do not have to see the spirits of all the dead to know they exist and I do not have to touch the Spirit to be touched.

As I say, all things are of God, including science, because God created science too. You deny evolution, yet unless you were shown every single individual, of every generation of an animal you would always say there was a missing link. The evolution of the horse is very well documented, with representatives of different stages from a five-toed fox-sized animal to the modern horse. Adaptation is a form of evolution, as with the Pepper moth in England. If certain traits enable an animal species to survive, then eventually those traits will become dominant, even to a different body form. Whales were once small hoofed animals living along shorelines, as they lived more in the water those which could swim and move better lived to breed and others did not. Whales still have pelvic and leg bones inside their bodies. You deny the changes, the reality of the existence of the fossils, however you need to close your mind to the wonderful way God has made and changed all Life, that is your view, your choice.

To your questions. 1. I am a son of God. 2. I came from a long line of God's creations. 3. Learning about God and His Creation and worshipping God. 4. I am going to wherever God desires me to go. 5. God created everything and God is no accident. 6. God designed everything to become whatever it will be. 7. God will take care of me when I die. 8. Because God is good. 9. Because God allows free will and people do not always choose to do as God wants. 10. Evolution is how science has shown the way that God has created, and is still creating, new forms of life. It is as much a theory as the theory of gravity or atomic theory. Not everything is known about any of those, but they work and have facts to support them.

You admit to slight alterations due to selective adaptation. Mitochondrial DNA may go back 50,000 years and show only slight changes, as in the connection between a Greek and an American Indian. But those changes are cumulative, passed on from generation to generation, so go back 5,000,000 years. Those remote ancestors looked and were built differently from their descendants. The further you go back the more different they look, hairier, bigger jaws, brow ridges, short legs, smaller brains. Ooops! You probably think the world was created in 4,000 BC by counting generations. All of the fossils, carbon-14 dating then is a lie from God to test our faith. God does not lie and what He has created for us to see and measure is the truth. So thump your Bible, close your mind and reject the reality of God's awesome creation. By the way those galaxies are really millions of light years away and Creation was a lot more than 4,000 yrs BC.

There is no way to confuse you with the facts, since your mind [such as it is] is firmly made up. Don't bother to argue from your literalist viewpoint, for that will not change my more openminded view. God bless and peace to you.

The basics of evolution are simple. Adapt to the enviroment. Need longer arms to reach food, those with longer arms survive.