Does Ms. Engineer Miss Engineering?

I'm over 30 and still here...but then I haven't had children (yet?). My views would likely be very different if I were juggling career and family.

In my experience, one of the biggest "turn offs" is the continued existence of old boys networks...not necessarily of those from certain scholastic institutions, but simply that the "boys" tend to band together and exclude the "girls". I've noticed this quite alot lately in that outside of formal meetings and some work place chats, there are opportunities to "bond" with my colleagues that my male colleagues have but I do not entirely because of my gender. This reduces my visibility to others - there have been numerous occasions when people have been astonished to find out that I'm involved in a project let alone how much of it is my responsibility! This lack of "visibility" means I'm not considered for new projects/promotions etc etc etc.

Very few people now consider female engineers to be less capable than their male colleagues or that engineering is not a suitable career for women (hooray!), but there are now much more subtle, mostly unconscious, prejudices to be overcome.

There are a number of other points to make, but I need to get back to work, so I'll come back later.

Hello English Rose,

I have seen this old boys network, They are out there. I have a question that I like to ask later.

I have worked for company's, that have both genders in the blue and white collar areas.

With this being engineers and managers (white collar) as well as manufacturing and fabrication (blue collar).

As far as competence there seems to be little differences between the two that I experienced. With the exception I have seen that in the white collar some females seem or make it understood that by so called "to get ahead" they have to sacrifice their personal life's, what I have seen both genders do this sacrificing.

On the blue collar side, if the female wants to be a part of it, they tend to conformed to the existing environment. Which was established by the "old boys network".

I am sure there are exceptions to this.

There is one more thing, which can be an equalizer or a restraint for equality, where there may be fear out there or at least concern with possible sexual harassment.

I am saying this because I have seen a female manager that made an "off-color" remark to a male subordinate and the subordinate just went about his business and didn't think nothing of it, (that I know of).

While there are actual sexual harassments case where it was the other way around where it was a male manager say something similar to a female subordinate. A case was filed.

Now both of these may not happen all the time, but do both genders need to go to sensitivity class or do both genders are just over sensitive?

That wasn't my question, I like to know your opinion though.

My question is, how do you implement yourself in engineering projects, to make yourself known?

I saw that cartoon in the newspaper recently.

I think that to some extent the inadvertent* harassment, like you described, or the fear of causing offence so worrying about "the right or wrong" thing to say can be dealt with without resulting to reporting people. It's also important that women make it clear what is acceptable and what is not - although this in itself can be an intimidating process.

So much of what we say is context driven - and so many of our reactions are based on the accumulation of our previous experience. I will (and have since I was small) taken on anyone who uses the word 'spaz', as I have an aunt who is spastic (now called Cerebral Palsy) and I am deeply offended by its use as a term of abuse. I challenged a work colleague a couple of years ago when he used the word twice in a meeting. He acknowledged my objection and agreed not to use it again. Outside the meeting he told me that a) he'd used it twice because he saw me twitch the first time (typical of his usual manipulation) and b) he had used it as an abbreviation of 'spasm', a term used in the RAF to denote someone who's got themselves an electric shock (I wasn't totally convinced, but had to give him the benefit of the doubt on that one). Lots of other people don't have that strong a reaction to that word - similarly some people regard the c-word as an acceptable expletive. I personally don't, but I wouldn't report someone for using it. If it was someone I was going to be working with long term, then I'd ask them not to use the word. In my experience, this takes some time (after all you're asking someone to change a habit) but does work.

As an example: my boss does not condone swearing or blaspheming, but he makes his point gently. I've been pulled up for saying "God knows" with the reply "Yes, He does". (Trouble is, I can't resist "Yes, but he's not telling me!"). Over the years, our coworkers have absorbed this, and no longer swear when he's around - they think it's a bit "sweet/twee" but they don't swear around him.

So in short answer to your first question: I think both genders need to work at working together - and both need to think about how their actions impact on others. Oh, hang on, isn't that a good model for life in general?

Your second question: Being English, I'm a bit hampered by an inbuilt self-effacing gene - LOL! I actually don't have a method - simply keeping your nose to grind-wheel and doing the best job you can doesn't work (recent research published showed that this is a typically female trait and doesn't get you on in the world!). Luckily, I have a really good boss who actually believes in crediting his staff, so this does help.

I have found that using email or other written forms gets a message across more effectively than face-to-face conversations.

*inadvertent in that the "perpetrator" doesn't set out to cause offence or harass the other, but is being crass and unthinking.

Hello English Rose,

You original post had touch off a memory.

When I was manage as well as operating a business, I had experienced issues with both genders. Especially when you mention about the "old boys network" and about being apart of it, or not being a part of it.

I was operating a Design and Fabrication shop, and hired a female to be a key employee in the office, and was collaborated by another of my existing employs, (later found out, that her resume was false, both were fired among things due to their incompetence)

Anyways, she knew my history with other companies and the employees or coworker felt comfortable around me treated me with respect, though I didn't try to "buddy up" with them.

She wanted to be apart of this group (the factory floor worker, fabricator, welders and such), and was telling me that she's a tomboy; she can handle herself with men, (do not really know what she meant be that, I took it in context as in teasing and joking).

Well she was also teasing some of our vendors, and one day a vender/supplier was going to stop in and visit, she had gotten somewhat excited, I questioned her about it, her response was, and she likes teasing him.

All what I said to her, is be your self, but if your going to dish it out be prepared to receive it back.

The moment he walked into the door, she made a rather sharp comment to the vendor questioning his competence as a joke, His reply was, it must be nice to come in at 9:00am and do you nails and said it with a very wry smile. He was not that type of person, I feel she was doing it to him often that he was prepared to deal with her.

She did not know what to say. And looked at me to defend her,

And I was speechless, (she did come in late and farted around before starting work), but she worked later in the afternoon I was tolerant.

I then told her, you went out of your way to get yourself into this, and you're on your own.

Then she started talk about females not getting respect and being harassed.

I then told her, respect is earned and if you want respect your going about it the wrong way. You try to be friends or gain respect by imposing yourself unto them, and with them that's ok until they get fed-up with taking your bull$#!* and decide to send some back your way.

And as far as harassment is concerned I told her I just witnessed something here and asked her to tell me what just happened.

Then she made a comment that my relationship with the employees is good because I am friends with them. I corrected her and said my relationship is good with the employees is because they respect me, as I respect them.

If the respect isn't there then there's problems, and some of these employee's I could not stand, but they were good workers.

She pouted for about a week and half, I eventually had to leave her go (because of her incompetence)

So as far as being part of this male group one may think you are missing out on opportunities, because you're not a part of it, this is possible. But remember as the genders are becoming more leveled out and even in time, you better off being yourself as an employee and a person.

But if you believe that you are not getting recognition that you feel you deserve, by no means do not sit back and wait for someone to stand up for yourself. Take it upon yourself and make yourself known.

There's some truth into the saying the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Damn this is worded.

phoenix911

"g'day Rose, good to see you again." Is this sexual harassment or not? "Rose, you did such a beautiful job on that last project, let's sit and discuss how to increase your productivity on the next project." Is this sexual harassment or not?

"Hey Tom, you doing anything tonight? Why don't we stop by Eddie's bar for a couple beers?" "Why don't we invite Rose, too, Mike?" "I would love to invite her Tom, but you know my wife, she thinks I am flirting when I as the Waitress for more water." "Yah, I know, Mike. My wife thinks I am making out at the office all the time. She believe all those TV talk shows where they say that half of all men have office affairs." Is this sexual harassment?

"Did you see that the cleavage on Rose when she comes to talk to you about your errors on your drawing, Jim?" Is this sexual harassment?

Sexual harassment law suits has been, is now, and will continue to be one fear in the minds of most managers and executives and is a major cause of the "old boys" excluding females from their network. It can work both ways, too. It can cause an attractive female to be passed over for promotion and it can be the reason she was unjustifiably promoted to her first level of incompetence. It is much the same as when your daughter goes on her first date, will she or will she not know how to say no. It her date too experienced for her. The sexual differences and the fear of sexual harassment or fear of spouse jealousies and mistrust are all involved. And, in all of this, it works in each direction. In my long career, I have supervised very competent females who deserve rapid advancement and I have supervised attractive females who would do anything to advance beyond their capabilities. But this is also true of man men. I will make this one observation, in most cases, the best, most willing to learn, and most productive all whom I have supervised has been the single parent female, regardless of how attractive she may be. I am sure that it is because of the incentive of child raising the spurs her on to achieve.

When two genders work close together with the significant others not being there. does put a strain on any relationship.

Let me tell you of one of the situations I was in, and I like and opinion.

When I had a design/fabrication business, I had hired a young co-op student to handle misc. items in the office. She wear items the it was not revealing, but it was tight fitting. (things twenty/twenty one year olds wear) And she was in very good shape. I felt that it was inappropriate. When she walked out in the shop. Work not only slowed down it stopped. Clients enjoyed seeing her, she was very attractive.

Fortunately I knew her and her family and her father was my best friend. I did talk to her, which still was difficult.

I was thinking if it weren't for my history with her family and this was a stranger that I hired, would that constitute sexual harassment.

I revised my employee handbook to cover this in a mix-gender way.

But, if it happened again from a stranger I hired. would there still be a cause for a suit. I am sure some lawyer out there would see it.

Can fear of a harassment be a form of reverse harassment. I am sure if you have the money there is lawyer out their who thinks so.

I like to give another example; When I was working in a shipyard, language can get pretty loose (vulgar) with some of the workers. One such worker call a female work a four letter word which begins with a c. (we'll call it the "c" word). She promptly reported him. He was called into the office by the human resources (HR) and was promptly given a 3 day suspension.

His defense was, he told HR that when somebody does something stupid he calls them a "dumb c___"). male or female. An that was true. And he been there and doing it for over 20 years. (He also uses other colorful languages)

And after 20 years, that was the first time he was reported.

I have heard him call males referencing them by using both genders genitally, and after 20 years that was the first time he was reported.

Now when I heard how he justified his actions, I was I don't know, shocked, surprised, I even found humor at his response. Was there a precedence, Was he discriminating, Was it sexual Harassment, Was that right?

The yard cracked down after that, which also included taking down all calenders that were given to the different shops in the yard by vendors that had females on them.

But males on the calenders were ok. Was that right?

As more and more females enter the workforce in areas that was once reserved for men society will have a long standing period of adjustment. The same is true in both the military and in the private sector as more and more homosexuals come out of the closet. Keep in mind that both females and homosexuals have existed through history and I doubt that either will go away, soon. The question is whether or not they have to put up with language and activities not complimentary to them, calling it sexual harassment. This is a question that our society will face for a very, very long time: "When does conduct unbecoming of a lady or gentleman become sexual harassment?".

Hiya chtank - good to see you too!

"g'day Rose, good to see you again." Is this sexual harassment or not?

Depends on your facial expression and which bit of my anatomy you're gazing at. In general, it's just a social greeting.

"Rose, you did such a beautiful job on that last project, let's sit and discuss how to increase your productivity on the next project."

Again, depends on expression & tone of voice.

"Hey Tom, you doing anything tonight? Why don't we stop by Eddie's bar for a couple beers?" "Why don't we invite Rose, too, Mike?" "I would love to invite her Tom, but you know my wife, she thinks I am flirting when I as the Waitress for more water." "Yah, I know, Mike. My wife thinks I am making out at the office all the time. She believe all those TV talk shows where they say that half of all men have office affairs." Is this sexual harassment?

Not harassment, but discrimination - and discrimination of women by women. The men (let's think positive here) are treating Rose as a colleague first, but their intentions are modified by the reactions of their wives. I've fallen foul of this. When I was 18 I worked in a shipyard (student engineer) and toured the yard in the same way as the apprentices did. I once said hello on a Saturday morning in town to someone I was working with during the week as I passed him. When he saw me at work the following he week, he told me never to speak to him in the street again. When I asked why, he said his wife had given him the third degree over me - she didn't believe I was an apprentice at the yard.

It's a very sad state of affairs, but I'm glad I learnt the lesson very early on a with very little fallout as I've seen similar reactions elsewhere and have been able to do something to diffuse the situation. I talk to the wife, not to make friends (that's a bit false unless it actually happens) but to make it clear (subtly) I'm not interested in their husband - but without insulting him! The trouble is too many people think that male + female = sex, in all cases . My best friend is male, he's heterosexual, but we have never, and will never, end up in bed together because...well we're friends.

You've actually raised a good point - not all discrimination is male on female; quite a lot is female on female. In my present employment, I've been subject to more female discrimination than male discrimination, but perhaps it was just that the woman involved didn't like me, that it was personal not general <shrug>.

Your last paragraph raises very good points. There are a lot of men in industry who are trying to do the right thing by all their employees and women just working at doing a good job and creating a good career for themselves <applause>.

Wow, spell check is available on the blog. I have to wonder if engineers really have as much trouble with written communication skills as some of these essays suggest. Rose, I am a corporate founder and current operator. I am a medical researcher. I am a clinical practitioner. I even teach form time to time. I have worked with men and women all my life (well over forty years). From manufacturing to teaching and health care, one major element has carried through all my experience with my co-workers. There are those who are committed and those who are not. Here's where the trouble starts. I can rid myself of male workers who don't add up with relative ease. When I have to get rid of poor minority people the government descends upon us like a plague. I have learned over the years that any good corporate leader takes the time to notate employee transgressions as they occur and of-course maintains accurate records over time. True support of the supervisory staff is also paramount. I have had to go to court to override the bad decisions of bad government employees in the past. What a nightmare. I have been told by the government(representative) that specific employees may not be separated unless that employee commits a felonious act! Believe it. Although the government employee was mistaken, without the records providing proof of blatant, continuous and purposeful problematic behavior - we would have been forced to maintain "very poor", substandard employees. Good management can be very hard work.

It is of primary importance that this question of keeping anyone in any field of endeavor reverts to an initial position we in the USA no longer consider at any point in one's career. Does the person in question want to be part of our organization? What are the persons priorities? Is the position we are talking about designated as a "key" position? How important is the position and its continuity of fulfillment to the organization.

Now the gloves come off. How can you or anyone else expect an employer or member of a professional team to respect and/or employ a member who, from the start of the relationship, suggests: that when a family comes along or my nose gets runny or I get a headache etc., etc., it will be time to leave the group. I will never deny the importance of a family. But the destruction of familial roles and the forcing of women into the work place for the sake of their femininity is a lousy premise from the start. Do you want to be an engineer and fulfill the responsibility that the position implies or don't you?

Had you approached my organization for a position several things would have occurred. Your academic and work history would have been confirmed as you had reported. You would have met the men and women with whom you would been assigned to work. You would have met the supervisor or department head. You would have met me. Somewhere in the battery of interviews, your tepid commitment to your profession would have come out. Your sex would not have entered into the decision to seek someone else. As for promotions, come on: Who are you really kidding? If your supervisors or co-workers were all women, you would be fighting the old girl network. In truth, it exists everywhere in the form of the management structure. You become a part of that team by being a good soldier to start and by beating the competition on the ladder. When that decision process fails, the business or organization has entered into its own decline and/or destruction. Everyone suffers under bad leadership.

In health care, the same problems exist that we are talking about in engineering. There are enough women in health care that they constitute the majority. There are doctors who were "permitted" into medicine to meet numerical requirements. Sadly, I know more part time female doctors than I know full time practitioners. The seats in our medical schools are very limited. Fifty years ago, no part time doctor would have found an institution willing to admit him on such a basis. Eventually we will all pay the price for our indifference to the truth and commitment to propriety. The women who have made the commitment and continue to do so are ill served by the complaints of lesser folk.

In closing, Rose: be an engineer or don't be. The choice is yours. Don't attribute the difficulties you face to a phantom. Look within yourself.

Now to the real question: How do we keep women or any engineer in engineering and foster their growth within the profession. First: bring engineers into engineering who want to be engineers. Second: make it clear that an engineer is an engineer is an engineer. Everyone who truly becomes one enters into a field of extreme importance and responsibility. When one exhibits competence and commitment pay them above a line worker. Unions be damned. I guess we'll have to change our national collective values too. What kind of message do we send when we pay sports figures, politicians, entertainers and bis-ad majors as we do? Ah, that's the question!

very good response,

I like to comment on one paragraph that is not quite right. Which I experienced first hand.

"I have had to go to court to override the bad decisions of bad government employees in the past. What a nightmare. I have been told by the government(representative) that specific employees may not be separated unless that employee commits a felonious act!"

They have to be convicted of fraud first, before there is any chance.

I had a husband and wife working for me, or I should say working together. He was on a base salary plus commissions as an engineer and sales, she handled the ap/ar. She was the skewing the numbers to the books, and was very difficult to straighten out to make her husbands project look sound.

Had to lay her off, I could not fire her because it was difficult to find out what was going on. When I did that was a scene. Talking about threats, of suing for discrimination and harassment. Journal came ion very handy.

Her husband left before I could fire the bastard, the new person that replaced her found how she was skewing the books with irregularities.

Her husband filed a claim against my company with Wisconsin Department of Workforce Development (DWD) tens of thousand of dollars and approx. $1,000.00 for reimbursement which I issued him the check but did not cashed it. the even got the same law firm that I had to set up my company to represent them. The attorney I had hired, told me conflict of interest is nothing, ofter persistence he finally said quote "I do not know him, (him being the attorney) if he was a monkey that fell out of tree, we just don't do that to other attorneys")

The fraud representation of the employee was uncovered because the company that employed this engineer prior to me, (which by the way graduated from Michigan Tech with a BSME) Hired me after I had to closed my business to straighten out performance issues on their own OEM engineered products, (by the way done by this same engineer)

Even after submitting the fraud, talking about red tape, the DWD threaten to pass it to the District Attorney (normal procedures) if I did not pay. I didn't and the DWD eventually came to a decision (of many) that All I owned basically is the reimbursement to this employee and approx. $100.00 worth of commissions, which I had originally give them.

As far as commissions, that was based on performance of the project by the way. And as far as the reimbursement I felt Since I already sent the check which they did not cash because they rolled it up in the claim. And again offered had offered it because the check went stale after not cashing it after 90 days. I told them My fiscal year for that is long past the that is now off the table. As far as the commission, the crap they put me through I refuse to pay it.

They again threaten to sent it to the D.A.

20 months of battling, I finally told them to pass it to the District Attorney, of which she basically threw it out.

As far as your comment;

"Good management can be very hard work."

I have told the people I managed if you want my job you can have it. And when its brought up, I'll add the so-called perks you think that comes with the job do not come close to the responsibility.

And as far as spelling and grammatical errors........guilty.

so something like the original post of keeping women in engineering is not black and white, yes or no solution. but one of a case by case basis, like everything else.

phoenix911

My experience was in Indiana. I suspect a number of variations may exist legally in spite of the fact that we are talking about a federal statute. I did notice that some words in my presented essay did not appear quite as written. That may explain why some moderately unintelligible discussions seem to go on. I'll have to be very careful that I actually type what I think I'm saying! Thank you for the comments.

welcome to CR4 bestlungman

issues like this I would wish would be more rounded getting response from each point of view. When one feels they have been slighted, one can find out there is a bigger picture that they are not seeing........including myself.

and i noticed some of your wording. and i understand.

enjoy.

phoenix911

That was just painful to try and read. I hope you take more care in your engineering.

it was addressed to people with experience with such matters. People who are not familiar with this type of situations do have a hard time comprehending it.

A former colleague, who happened to be male though that is not particularly relevant, had an interesting problem to deal with. He managed an office with a number of technically-very-capable people in it, and incidentally when surveyed over a period of time, the numbers of men to women in the office were almost always equal.

One day the men put up a calendar that was slightly risqué: a catalogue showing the finest offerings in women's underwear and nightwear, that sort of thing. The women in the office, after a few days of complaining to the men involved, delegated one of their number to see the manager with their complaint.

He thought about it for a moment and came up with a solution. He pulled a £5-note from his pocket, handed it to the delegate, and instructed her to proceed to 'Athena' (for the non-UK reader this is a nation-wide retail outlet specialising in decorative detail items for the home, like calendars) in work time and purchase and come back with an equivalent calendar for the women. She chose a catalogue demonstrating the effectiveness of the latest in fire-fighting equipment, shown off by various men that had stripped to the waist in view of the high temperatures involved in their arduous work, and placed it alongside the underwear catalogue to see what effect it had on the men in the office.

Within a few days, and with considerable relief all round, both calendars came down by mutual agreement with honour preserved by all involved.

Marks out of 10 for the manager's approach, please?

Fair,

I am glad that the females did not revert to it upon themselves to do it. Which would become a game between the two, instead of bringing it to the management.

That is the good mature desirable result. A shame it is so infrequently realized.

I will get back online later and answer more of the points in detail (when I'm not at work!). Thanks to everyone who has contributed. There are some specific replies I want to make.

The thing that struck me most about your replies was that you started to talk about harassment. Neither the OP nor I mentioned, or hinted at, harassment. I talked about unconscious discrimination, but this is quite different.

As you have pointed out, there are official methods to deal with harassment, so this is an issue that should (as has) diminish. I don't think that this is a reason for a "lack" of attracting or retaining women in engineering (or science).

Please note: none of what follows contains any value judgements: I don't think on way of being is better than another. I do however believe we should acknowledge that there are differences and that each type has its own strengths and weaknesses and that we should work together to make the most of both types and all individuals.

On the attracting side: I don't think that we should expect a 50/50 split on men & women in engineering, simple because there is a gender split in methods of thinking. I do not think like a typical woman - and I have "always" known that.

I really do believe that there are styles of brain wiring and that in general women are wired for language and social skills* and men for physical activities, spatial awareness and getting things to work. Yes this is an enormous generalisation, yes, there are "exceptions" to me "rule": Perhaps a better way of thinking of it is a pair of axes:

x-axis Ability with mechanical, practical things
y-axis Ability to communicate, empathise etc

The majority of women are in the top left quadrant and majority of men in bottom right quadrant (or think they are? That's another discussion about expectations!). There are of course people through the surface, but the population density is lower outside these two areas. I think I'm closer to the right than most other women, but probably lower in the y-axis, but still higher than most men.

In my experience, I have found that most women can't follow most of my logical (system or pattern based) thought processes (and most men can keep up with them), but most men can follow them (if I slow down...). Conversely, most men can't understand my emotional responses, even when I try to explain them in logical terms (I think I understand why and while instances of this can be frustrating, it doesn't bother me in general). This is evidence (to me) of the wiring differences.

So (deep breath) back to the point: because of these differences and the population spread, I think that we will stabilise at about 10% of the engineering workforce being women, because that's about the proportion of women [assuming N(men) = N(women)] who are wired to enjoy the doing of engineering. To my mind, as long as every girl knows she can choose engineering (and every boy needlework), and every girl who wants to has the opportunity and encouragement to do so, we have a level playing field. I asked a (male) nurse lecturer friend of mine what proportion of nurses are male, and I think that was 10 - 20%, so my theory stands up in the reverse situation also.

And that why I think the numbers of women in engineering have stablised at 10-20%

*Please excuse the terminology, I can't think of any better ones at the moment, and so I'm using hyperbole to make a point. If you don't understand that last sentence, say so and I'll explain further, eventually!

Retaining

This is the aspect I tried to address in my first post: of the women who start in engineering why do so many leave. Do they? Is the number larger than in other professions? I don't know, but we seem to be assuming it is.

There will be, in any profession, a number of women who leave the workforse to care for their family, whether children or parents. There will be some who find rich hubbies and so don't need to work; I would like to suggest that there are fewer of these in engineering***. I think that in a lot of cases there are women who would return to engineering but are unable to because of the lack of flexibility in employment opportunities. But we have to ask: is this unique to engineering or is it more closely related to local cultural situations?

I think that it is easier for a man to continue in a career (not just engineering) because the social expectations are that women care for children (I know this isn't always the case in practice, but those exceptions are rare...so rare that they are still a talking point) and working mothers are still** regarded as either slightly neglectful (it's not the "right" thing to do) or a pain in the @$$ since they're "always wanting time off to deal with their offspring. Of course no-one would admit to thinking this way...

What can be done to attract and retain women in engineering? Yes, flexible working arrabgements would help considerably. Being able to see and relate to female work colleagues are work colleagues (rather than female work colleagues) would be a huge step forward - but this is not unique to engineering, it's just more noticeable here, particularly as the women involved are (generally) well educated and articulate.

** I can only talk about my perceptions of social expectations in the UK. Please feel free to talk about those in your country, it would be interesting to hear other views and experience.

***Because their value sets are different and "work" isn't just about money, it's also about intellectual stimulation, so however rich hubbie is, they wouldn't be happy sitting at home all day, going out only to lunch. Again, I'm over-generalising in order to set out a theory, which we can measure against evidence.

More later - it's now home time & looks like I'm going to get left to lock up!!! Nothing to do with my gender, just that I'm going to be last out - and this was supposed to be a short post! ROFL

I talked about unconscious discrimination

I hope you mean subconscious.

And the possibility of harassment especially how it was stated about bonding of which it was mentioned, especially with todays environment has to be addressed.

And this interaction between the two like bonding after work, golfing or what ever, if one does not consider it, and choose to ignor it, its foolish.

I also notice all the replies seemed to be men.

As far as the ratio between male/female engineers, I have read that the majority of people in college taking majors in engineering are now women, I have to verify that.

Though they are not engineers yet, or if they stay in the engineerng field I do not know.

Both. In the last post I was thinking in terms of "unconscious incompetence/conscious incompetence/concious competence/unconscious competence.

I wasn't thinking about harassment when I wrote my first post, so I was surprised all posters picked it up.

I also noticed the rest of the posters are men - I think I've only met one other woman on CR4 - or at least one that says she female

Interesting to hear about the universities - I'd not heard that. Which country are you in?

The U.S.

About year ago for what ever reason I was reading a report, census, something with trends. don't remember how I found it. I still looking into confirming it, but I'll go onto say that the amount of foreign students is approaching the U.S. born students was in the same report.

I have yet to see these ratios in industry, but I am sure they are coming. Personally I feel that women may not stay in this field very long because of the issues.

As far as the harassment issues, the feedback with harassment issues and such, allot is from experience. This I am concerned about and you had touch off on it, as far as how the brain is wired. And understanding the difference one needs some psychology background to handle these situations.

Being an engineer and having worked with ♀♂ engineers as well as managing ♀♂ engineers. I tend to look for patterns and consistencies. When things aren't consistent it makes it more difficult for me.

I have to say as a manager, I always kept my distance from both male or female for a variety of reasons. And try to make the environment and for the workers comfortable or atleast bearable at times.

I like to give an example of what I experienced, but I do not want to bore you. I have to say this, I have made mistakes and have wished I could have a do over, fortunately none were serious. Making mistakes allot of people can say that.

On your original post, you mentioned about bonding or recognition or "lack of".

When females feel ostracized, past over, or not being recognized.

When this happens to you how do you handle it, and if you in a old boys network with out being labeled a prima donnas or a "b---h".

When I say "when females feel" in the above paragraph, I seen males do that also, When that happens to males, it can be management issues, but sometimes its a lack of self confidence.

phoenix911

<...I've only met one other woman on CR4 - or at least one that says she female...>

How would one know for certain? And is it really necessary for a username to infer a gender? Hmmmmm.........

in other words, are you questioning that English Rose could be a man?

maybe some of us aren't even human.....

<Female engineers are unique among females AND engineers. It's really no surprise it's difficult to figure out how to handle us. >

Absolutely!

Finally,

This is also an example what happens in the workplace. If they see harassment or discrimination. people tend to sit back and see what happens while the person that is being harass or discriminated against is pounded upon. Maybe comforting her in private.

And yes engineers that become managers there differently has to be a different way of thinking, and one can not or at least have a hard time doing both.

And have been both, The best advice that I can and have given to both the people I have managed or co-workers. If you have a compliant and you brought it to my attention and feel that I did not respond to the level that you expect. By all means, take to my boss or to the top. As a manager I have always kept a journal especially dealing with employees. Which was helpful to both myself or the people I have managed.

I also do this, and tell people I manage, because in all actuality. There is only one and only one person that will really look after your professional and personal welfare, and that person is number one. You.

I thank you for your response and input, I was Little disappointed at first because of the rather lopsided responses.

One of your comment I would like to address and that is;

One comment noted that the focus had shifted to sexual harassment, which is a factor, but doesn't seem to me to be the main focus of the original post.

I believe you may not realize this, Harassment, Discrimination, as well as Wage claims. If either of these is file by an employee to the employer or their boss. It is taken over by the state again the defendant (employer) . And the usual response from an attorney is pay it, its alot easier and cheaper. Because its the employer that has to prove his innocence that it didn't happen.

This you may have not known, and if you do not take into the account of equal rights, which is part of the original post. I myself see that sexual harassment, discrimination is very much connected to this.

Can be quite fickle dealing with people and their emotions, not left to be left to the ignorant.

phoenix911

I am an engineering technician, mostly in the audio/video and medical electronics end. Not only are the "Men from Mars Woman from Venus" problems everywhere, there is the underlying cultural aspects of male and female bonding that produces conflict not just in mixed sex working environments. I have seen males vs males and females vs females who either hate each other so much or want a position, that a physical fight ensues. If it is not a physical fight it is a battle based on "status," perceived or not, where the conflict will continue until intervention, through whatever means. The intervention has to produce an understanding closer to group cooperation than cultural individualism. This is also needed in companies where persons are employed from cultures developed in different countries.Physical interaction between advisories is, in the short term, quicker and the result is usually a new working relationship involving friendship for men for they have bound through "combat" where the culture is strength. For the woman it is similar in result but compassion is a larger bonding element than strength. However the male view of the female conflict can produce conflicting attitudes toward the female combatants, where woman will go either to the perceived winner or the loser in compassion..Though there is the times where the loser drops so fare down the pecking order that they become irrelevant. Many companies have faltered by having "key" people being ignored because they have, for one reason or another, been placed so far down the obsolete "ladder" that no one listens to them. For the woman it is similar in result. However the male view of the female conflict can produce conflicting attitudes toward the female combatants.It is extremely difficult to gain "teamwork status" and easy to loose it. The military training demonstrates this. It starts off with one person in ultimate control, and team work is produced through repetition and then trust building. Not conducive to corporate life, where culture says only the "strong survive" even if it means strength through isolating any unknowns. This includes females, males, ideas, changes, ignoring new possibly damaging responsibilities etc. It is a difficult situation to overcome, it takes persons who have the ability to extend to themselves their innate ability to change, to change their perception of work and fellow workers as it relates to culture, family and dominance. You have to gain understanding by openly working through the cultural "male" dominance (King) and the female (Queen) cultural factors and ignore those in the main stream culture.

If "real discrimination," "sexual harassment," or detrimental acts occur to sabotage a project or your job, you do have to step up to the plate. You may be called a "whistle blower" or worse.

It is hard to know the culture of a company when you apply, it is hard to change it when it needs changing. But then again all things come to pass in time, do not give up your passion, for somewhere if not where you are, you will make a change.

I have seen males vs males and females vs females who either hate each other so much or want a position, that a physical fight ensues. If it is not a physical fight it is a battle based on "status," perceived or not, where the conflict will continue until intervention, through whatever means.

My first job had this type of caveman structure, from the top down. it was terrible.

And this company did 200+ million/year. I had contracted back later on, I do not know how they broke from it. but they became more liberal, probably from necessity.

But even today, I would think twice about having ones spouse or girlfriend work there. Stigma still exist from the experience.