Stop Watching Me: Freedom Not Fear 2008

While it would be nice, I don't think it'll help. Too many companies are using stuff for their own benefit to stop collecting. It is scary how much knowledge there is on individuals these days. A positive is that it could someday help evidence in crimes be more clearcut. It's scary though, to think that just about every move you make is recorded.

Your post reminded me of this article in the NY Times, and I think it's just a sign of our times. There is so much information available on people (much of it put out there by the individuals themselves) that I don't think it is reasonable to expect businesses (or people searching for a date) not to use it.

Thanks for the link - the article is very amusing and remarkably relateable. It does raise a good point, that people are largely at fault for putting themselves out there in places like facebook or myspace. However, I think the issue of surveillance is different because it includes situations where people don't know that they're necessarily being watched. You don't know if you're going to be searched, or who is reading your emails or monitoring phone calls. As an American, I personally feel like some of the measures that have been implemented to "protect" citizens are more intrusive than helpful.

I think I have mentioned it on CR4 before, but I read a book called No Place to Hide, which talks about the increasing amount of surveillance in the post-9/11 USA. Here is an excerpt from the Center of Investigative Reporting, which gives an idea about what the book is focused on:

Consider the following: When you use your cell phone, the phone company knows where you are and when. If you use a discount card, your grocery and prescription purchases are recorded, profiled, and analyzed. Many new cars have built-in devices that enable companies to track from afar details about your movements. Software and information companies can even generate graphical link-analysis charts illustrating exactly how each person in a room is related to every other -- through jobs, roommates, family, and the like. Almost anyone can buy a dossier on you, including almost everything it takes to commit identity theft, for less than fifty dollars.

It may sound like science fiction, but it's the routine activity of the nation's fast-growing information industry and, more and more, its new partner the U.S. government.

Reading that book has definately changed my outlook on privacy (or made me more paranoid). I don't know what security and survellience are like in other countries - especially the EU, where the movement orginates - so hopefully some of our CR4 friends from around the world can shed some light on what this issue is like in their country.

This reminds me of my father, who pays cash for everything, since the credit card companies track your purchases, won't use discount cards, for the same reason, and refuses to get an EZ-Pass even though he goes through a toll booth regularly because they can track his travels. So yes, you can try to fight it but I agree with Jaxy this won't end in the public's favor, too many things are already tracked and monitored and I don't see those who are benefitting from gathering this information wanting to stop.

I agree that the beneficiaries are probably not going to stop without a fight - and even with a fight. I just think that privacy is worth fighting for, even if the desired result is never attained fully. I do not have much faith that the general public fully understands or cares about what is happening - so I am thinking that knowledge is power. But, then again, I am also a cynic.

And at the risk of getting too political with this topic, I am going to have to stop here for now

Just an FYI on the tolll thing..... license plate readers have been around for a long time. They are used more than we know.......

Yes I know, I went through the EZ-Pass lane once by accident and when I had to get off the highway I didn't have a ticket so I figured I'd just go through the EZ-Pass lane again. I forgot all about it until a ticket showed up in my mail with a picture of my car (license plate and all) showing me driving through the EZ-Pass lane. Can't get away with anything!

There is a toll highway here that is privately run. It uses license detection to charge the fees (which are very high in my opinion). The crazy part is that if you don't pay then you can not re-new your license. Why a private corporation has the power to revoke your license is beyond me. Much less the idea that they have access to the license information in the first place.

*looks around*

Oh crud! The camera saw me pick my wedgie!

It is annoying to think that the only safe place is in your home. Sometimes, not even there is safe. The worst part is - just because you don't see it doesn't mean that it isn't there.

This battle probably won't end in the publics favor. Sorry to disappoint, Sharkles.

Eh, I know. But, I am glad to know that people in the world are aware of this problem and are working towards bringing it to the public eye.

Remember the "TV" in 1984. How do we not know that the all digitals are not being used for invasion of privacy in the home?

Perhaps what the world needs is a group or society that can teach the public on how to detect such camera's and teach them how to take precautions to keep privacy private (I know perhaps a little redundant). Knowledge is power. What happens when encoding gets stronger for passwords? Hackers work harder against it. We need to fight with our knowledge and our uncanny ability to work around everything in our way. This is an obstacle and we need to find the knowledge and power to rise above it.

i think it is about time to bring out the guillotine again to show the politicians where the real power lies, call it a pre-emptive strike

Having just gone through hurricane Ike, I was at first surprised and then a bit troubled when I received an e-mail from a colleague in Asia who told me he was concerned for my safety and looked up my address in Google earth an got a image back that showed me in Houston in my backyard cleaning up fallen branches.

I wonder what he would of thought if I had taken that moment to pee in the back yard had the plumbing not been working?

Between CCTV and satellites, there is certainly no privacy outside your own home. It is only a small step to no privacy at all. 1984 anyone?

1984 is right. That is a really creepy example of the type of surveillance that isn't necessary - thank you for sharing.

I was watching TV the other night and someone said "get me the satellite images for the past 24 hours" and I got creeped out thinking that whenever I leave my house, there is chance that I am being recorded somewhere. While the show was fictional, I think that some people probably really can access that type of information. Your example just proves that point.

I'm sorry to say it but we're definately headed in the opposite direction. Government will just take more actions to spy on us whenever they can especially as new surveillance technology emerges.

New York state is starting to put RFID tags in drivers licenses. They say it will let you go to Canada or Mexico without a passport but its just one more way for the powers that be to keep tabs on you.

Just wait until 5 years from now when they have GPS chips inside everyones liscenses... or heads.

I agree with you. Phone tapping is just one indicator that government is getting to powerful. Freedom is changing from 'freedom to privacy' to 'freedom that the government allows you to have'. Freedom is taken for granted, it was really only a matter of time before government waltzed in and cut freedom short.

In a country where freedom is promised, do the people really have the power? It is times like these that make me shake my head 'no'.

Micro wave a GPS chip in the liscense.

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/25/2537.asp

Scary. Time to ride a bike.

Hi Sharkles - The late Tom Lantos, holocaust survivor and victim of government over-reach (putting it very mildly) himself, was my hero on this issue, when he shamed Yahoo! in a public session of congress (video was broadcast on C-SPAN) for helping the Chinese government lock-up a blogger critical of their policy. Not sure who's picked up the ball on this issue - maybe younger, more tech-savvy folks like Tim Berners-Lee, Moby, or Bono? You're definitely right to be concerned about this, in my view. Thanks for writing on this topic. - Larry

The attendants will all be monitored!

When you do get on their list:

Watch out, the sheer amount of weight they bring to bear on a person doing nothing is astounding. (Your opinions do matter, never know just who knows) And oh Yeh, those funny triangular & rectangular antennas that are sprouting up un every public pole are tracking RFID chips. Now embedded in just about everything, so 1984 is quite real I think.

And it's for our own good you know

As long as you do exactly what the government wants you to do, you have all the freedom in the world!

so what is the problem then?

Seems they want a good mannered sheep:

Do not want dissenting opinions on foreign policy, spending money, outright bribery, having foreign interests instead of national interests, feeding the war machine, education, gas taxes, smoke taxes, voting machine fraud, and many others.

What happens if I am not in agreement with their rape and pillage?

I get smacked down, probably earned some of it but OUCH:

Looks like everyone else here agrees (sorry if I missed another dissenting voice). However I think I should point out that for each person who takes the trouble to talk and worry about this sort of thing: there are dozens who don't worry or care. As for me: I'm right on the other side of the fence. Every CCTV camera (and any other high tech. method of surveillance) gives me greater freedom to go about my legitimate business without fear.

I'm in the UK where we have more CCTV cameras (per person) than anywhere else. Although I don't think our current government is very good: I do believe that in general they have my best interests at heart. If I and a sizable number of others ever became convinced that the government were deliberately working against my best interests: then, it would be a trivial matter to disable most of the high tech. surveillance. In countries where I believe there are real problems with those in power it's the low tech. means (thugs) they use which prevent the empowerment of the people.

On a much less serious point: I am pleased that the supermarket gathers information on what I buy if it helps their marketing department to stock the stuff that I want.

Hi Randall,

If this spying is beneficial then perhaps you can explain the rise in violent crime.

The real issue here is power, as always information is power remember "In the Kingdom Of The Blind The One Eyed Man Is King"

As far as government power is concerned it is becoming increasingly apparent that in the UK and most other EU countrys we have a serious case of the tail wagging the dog.

We have government making promises that the people will be asked to vote on issues effecting our ability to pass and veto regulations from the EU then ignoring that promise. One wonders how they know we are so apathetic over issues such as this. Could it be that those monitored e-mails and phone taps were used?

If we only knew as much about the government as the government knows about us.

I personally will only ever pay in cash, I have no loyalty cards and frequently swap internal work passes with a collegue just to screw this avaricious desire for information.

Great feel better for that.

Hi exemmet,

If this spying is beneficial then perhaps you can explain the rise in violent crime.

There are hundreds of potential explanations: I'm reasonably certain that CCTV cameras aren't making it worse.

The real issue here is power, as always information is power remember "In the Kingdom Of The Blind The One Eyed Man Is King"

Who do you think is using this information to your detriment?

As far as government power is concerned it is becoming increasingly apparent that in the UK and most other EU countrys we have a serious case of the tail wagging the dog.

Agreed. Is this relevant?

We have government making promises that the people will be asked to vote on issues effecting our ability to pass and veto regulations from the EU then ignoring that promise.

Agreed. Is this relevant?

One wonders how they know we are so apathetic over issues such as this. Could it be that those monitored e-mails and phone taps were used?

You've got a bit of a point here, except that: I don't think they need to covertly monitor any communications to know what most people think. Extrapolating from the Irish (who have benefited from EU membership more than almost anyone else) vote should give a reasonable indication.

If we only knew as much about the government as the government knows about us.

The gutter press ensures that we know much more.

I personally will only ever pay in cash, I have no loyalty cards and frequently swap internal work passes with a collegue just to screw this avaricious desire for information.

I normally use cash because I think it saves me time.

What do you think the supermarkets use the information they get from the use of loyalty cards for?

Why do you think your work place might like to know where you are?

Great feel better for that.

Good. You remain happy in the belief that your screwing the system, and, I'll remain happy in my naive belief that not everyone is out to get me.

Hi Randall - I've felt for a while that it's a huge irony that the country where George Orwell did most of his writing would turn out to be a world leader in adopting the "surveillance culture." But NYC seems to follow London's lead on this, so maybe this is the way of the world. I read Orwell's 1984 in 1982 or so, while in high school, so he may have been off by 20 years or so. Not too bad for fiction. - Larry

It will be tough to fight the information age. My thoughts are that there will be too much information. So much so that an average guy like me will just be ignored.

It's like walking down the street dressed like a 70's Elvis compared to jeans and a T-shirt. If you put yourself out there you will be noticed.

Enviroman-

There may be things we disagree on, but this is not one of them. GA.

Thanks - but I never thought we disagreed on all that much...

Hi Sharkles - Breaking news? Just confirmed it from eff.org: a colleague of mine said the Electronic Frontier Foundation just launched a new lawsuit, related to the free-speech discussion running here, against several folks in the U.S. government. The timing is a little suspicious, along with everything else happening within the past month related to Wall Street and the banking situation here in the U.S., but definitely makes the political season interesting to follow. I suspect we'll be seeing more big stories like this right up 'till election day on November 4th. It's going to make for good TV and radio material, for sure. Thanks for letting me share this. - Larry

Heh Heh:

I have been acting like there are no restrictions; you might be surprised what comes out of the woodwork at you. They mean to be listened to, and dissenting opinions are not welcome. Herd on the plane the other day about how the "Thought Police" were clamping down.

I Dun-Know if you give them an inch, they will assume you have given them the whole mile. It's best to go on like normal I think. Throwing you in jail for what you think or say will have a very negative effect on their big plans.

Bet when they clamp down for real there will be indoctrination camps.

Hi Sharkles - Thanks for the survey - will take a look at. It's Internet freedom expressed in blogs like this one here that keep governments everywhere honest. What happened for democracy as a result of Internet blogging in Burma within the past few years is one example that gives me hope of a brighter future for global free speech. - Larry

And if you think you're not being "monitored" in your home, think again.

During my stint working for the "Gubment", I had access to several little bits of hardware: a laser mounted microphone system, that when bounced off of windows could record every word spoken in the house. A "bug" the size of grain of rice that could track you anywhere.

Any game console with internet access, for multiplayer games, has monitoring equipment that can, when accessed by the "wrong" people, record events in the home even when turned off.

Folks, my info is ten years out of date. Do you think something better isn't already out there?

I, for one, will never allow some little weasel of a public servant to put any chip in me with my knowledge. If he tries, they will have to pick up what is left of him with a sponge.

I'm climbing off my soapbox now.

Blue

I almost hope that the governments show their true colors and try to repress these people so that there will be an even greater reaction to the erosion of freedom. I think that they will be ignored though and the repressive politicians will continue toward complete control.

A while back there was a thread about traffic cameras being misused as devices to provide revenue rather than to make driving safer. They were shown in the U. K. and in Australia. Sudden drops in speed limits with the cameras hidden behind signs and such, set up speed traps in places where there was no need to slow down. Angry drivers collared them with flaming tires or used bullets on them. Could angry hackers do the same to some of these devices and programs?

As long as the lack of privacy goes unnoticed and unresisted the general public will probably remain oblivious to it. Some who would gladly become slaves if they were guaranteed security for life will even applaud the lack of privacy.

"I despise the present government here in [fill in the country] and we need to mount a campaign to kick the bums out", is in an e-mail or spoken aloud within range of a cell phone. Within hours the door slams open and men in black make sure everyone present dies by "accident". End of opposition.

I hope to survive to post again.

I was reading in the local papers in The People's Republic yesterday that they want to fire the toll-takes on the Mass. Pike and install a system that photo's your plate, and send you a bill in the mail.

This just sound so creepy to me, ( they may actually do this now, they say they do it only on cars that don't pay, and they do track you down with a hefty fine).

What would be next. They could easily calculate you travel time and issue a speeding ticket!

"What would be next. They could easily calculate you travel time and issue a speeding ticket!"

Hi Bricktop,

That's been done before too. There is (was?) a national park in the province of Quebec, Canada that had only one road going through it (no intersection, etc...). You would register at the entrance (later done electronically) and again at the exit. If your time was too short, it was an automatic ticket !!

I don't know if this setup is still in operation (haven't been there in 20 years or so).

regards,

R.

If your time was too short, it was an automatic ticket...

Hello, Rick@cae

Hmm-m.. I can't remember that anywhere were placed foreseen fines for average speed. Isn't here a contradiction?

Let's consider a distance 100 km. In supposition that allowed speed is 100 km per hour person#1 has driven all distance keeping speed 105 km/h. Exceeded 5 km/h fits a tolerance of speedometer accuracy. Person#2 has run short section of this distance[for instance 10 km] keeping F1-speed 300 km/h then stopped for pi..ing off and taking a breath and continued his nice jorney as low abiden citizen with turtle-speed 30 km/h. Who of them two drived more dangerously for traffic safety? Who will be fried?

I so doubt of automatic ticket here. Do not be so worry.

Good luck.

caramba, it has little to do with safety, but everything to do with raising revenue.

Hi Caramba,

I doubt it is still like that today. But what I said is true. Since you were in deep woods with nothing but trees in sight for about 200km, most drivers would not be tempted to stop. Those who were speeding (and a lot of guys would go through that park to "try" their car/bike) would calculate how much time they theoretically needed to cross and would stop for a few cigarettes or redo the same strip of road a few times (racing) and then eventually go through the exit just in time for an average speed at the limit. I remember a lot of fatal accidents in that park.

And to answer your question about who would get fried: obviously, the cops eventually caught on to the plot and would question anybody that took too much time since they would probably have miscalculated their average time. I remember talking to one of the Provincial cops about the situation and he told me that they'd use their judgement as to what kind of vehicule would come through too slow (i.e. a family car full of kids would not be questionned but the 22 year old in his Camaro that would come through with an average speed 20km/h under the limit would be).

EDIT: The park joins Quebec city to Lac-St-Jean and there was a booth at either end where you would register. "Automatic" was a matter-of-speech...

Then there is the problem of identifying the driver so you can fine the right person, put points on their license or send them to jail. What happens if the driver of the car is not the owner? Could be the ne'er do well brother-in-law, cousin, friend, daughter's boyfriend, neighbor or a thief was driving and the law comes down on you. Where is the justice?

I complained to the police about a semi that ran me off the road. I had the license number, company name, trailer number and the phone number of the company. The Highway Patrol told me that if I didn't see the driver's face they couldn't do anything. A lawyer in the Midwest challenged his wife's traffic ticket because she had an alibi and they could not identify the driver of his wife's car [as it could have been any one of several teens who had borrowed the car] much less say it was his wife who was driving.

Now they are taking photos which show the face of the driver.

Big Brother is watching you!

"Big Brother is watching you!"

You got that right.

We could check with our UK friends, but I believe they use traffic camera's everywhere for speeding. I don't think they take a pix of your face. Something like your responsible for you vehicle no matter who's driving.

She went to court. They were going to fine her and put points on her license. She pled not guilty and her husband challenged them to punish her for someone else's crime. Since she could prove she was not driving the car, the ticket based on the photo was for the wrong person, therefore they could not fine her or put the points on her license. I think they just tossed it out as something they couldn't prove. Based on the numbers, most people just went ahead and paid, it was not worth pursuing to even find the actual driver.

It is a revenue producing scheme, since most people just pay, knowing that they were driving and not knowing that the police have to prove who was driving. Good little sheep.

They can't just punish the owner for someone else's actions. Of course that doesn't mean there will be justice in other areas. Governments and police have a tendency to be heavy-handed and overreact.

Sharkles : I posted the question below on a page linked from the promotion of your cause in Washington DC.

You are promoting "Freedom Not Fear 2008" and by coming to this page you or others have recorded my IP address. Is that NOT in contradiction to the very purpose of your Post on CR4 and the cause that you promote?

Well, you've got me there.

Like anything I write about, I chose this topic because it's an interesting take on a controversial topic. Since I write for the internet, my posts (and I) can never be private. So, in this case - yes, the medium is contradictory to the message. However, I felt that the cause was interesting enough to share with CR4 readers whom are also internet users. Also, the movement is largely European - and since I don't know much about what privacy and surveillance are like in other parts of the world, I was hoping to get some commentary about that.

Give a re-listen to the song "For What It's Worth" (link below) by Buffalo Springfield.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g9PiEgYYUU

Then go get yourself a nice tinfoil hat and be safe.

Nice song!

Nice hat!

I don't know much about what privacy and surveillance are like in other parts of the world, I was hoping to get some commentary about that.

I so hope it won't be so

caramba- Considering your location, I hope yours is not as pictured.

I hope so too.

but life is becoming very interesting here in terms of well known Chinese proverb

Oh! Hope you can change locations before it gets too interesting.

Interesting. However, I'm afraid it's just "lip service", to placate criticism from the public. Faced with the prospect of being shutdown somewhere, and the subsequent loss of revenue, they'll cave, as they have in the past.

I agreed, it's likely a PR action. Especially after how that a great three had already contributed to PP.

Yes, the only weak hope is the "Business case" mentioned in article . If they decided that it brings them profit, they would do something for privacy protection somehow somewhere.

It's an uphill battle and sometimes you just want to give up but there are tactics you can use. Some are mentioned here : http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/08/10/07/2112249.shtml

Interesting read, but the author makes a very relevant point - staying away from social networking sites, etc. can leave people out of touch with the rest of their social base. I know this may not be applicable for every age group; but as a 20-something, all of my friends and I communicate via some kind of electronic means. I've been an avid AOL Instant Messenger (AIM) user since I was 14, and was part of the first facebook movement (back when it was restricted to college students).

Since I was using these things before I became aware of privacy issues, it's frustrating sometimes because I know that if I were to abandon them now then I would have a much harder time keeping in contact with friends and family. So for me, even though I am concerned about privacy, these kinds of sites are a necessary evil for me.

Ever wonder how people stayed in touch with friends and family before the Internet? Those ways still work, even if a bit slower. Landline phones, mail and face-to-face contact provides much more privacy even if a bit slower and it is much more personal than an e-mail or text message. All those sites are not necessary, just easy, and are likely to become evil as governments begin to watch everything we do so they can control us.

Try more actual personal contact and your relationships will be stronger. It is likely that your face, your voice and your thoughts on paper will mean more to people than ephemeral electronic signals.

Good Answer.

Dragon