Glass Jaw Refineries?

There has been talk of the need to build new refineries as demand has increased. Building the new ones out of the danger zone would help. Still the oil which we depend on is only going to last so long. So the money spent could be better used to advance alternative energy sources.

the problem with most refineries is they smell and they flare of gas and they have small fires often, and people live in fear of a huge fire. So whenever they try build one, everyone from the Sierra club and the local nimby groups come out and demand public hearings etc and do not want it in their area, yada yada yada. The politicians have enabled these groups to block things with legislation. What they need is a law that the USA must conform to strict ecologically sound standards of production in all factories/refineries etc and that all imports must be made in factories that are similarly certified as ecologically sound. This will be a defensable non tariff barrier, as 50% of Chinese goods will be blocked and we can all say it is protecting the planet and we do not want the Chinese to ruin their environment either, save them from themselves, as it were.

Aurizon,

Agreed - refineries are for the most part "bad neighbors" NOBODY really wants to be near one ... but we sure do like to cruise down the road in our thirsty SUV's usually at 25 or more MPH over the speed limit. We have not built a brand new refinery from the ground up in the USA for a good 40 years or so. We have added on to existing ones or "debottlenecked" existing crude units and cat crackers for example. Most all of our refineries are located on water because we need easy access for tankers to move crude and finished product and to provide a source of cooling water for the process. They are also clustered in various locations such as the gulf coast. So when we get a good hit from a storm multiple refineries can be knocked out. When you add in the fact that US refineries are operating at 100% capacity it is easy to see that the loss of just one or two of them can really cut into supplies. Getting refineries back line after a major hit is often not an easy task. There are spills to contend with (sometimes) roads may be totally washed out and spare parts are not off the shelf items. Ed

Guest,

Refineries are one question. But, when we start talking about cars and speeds and relate them to mileage, why is it that nobody points out the fact that the 'ideal' running speed is quite different for a four-, six-, or eight-cylinder engine?

Where (and more importantly WHEN) was 55 MPH declared as the best economical and safest speed to travel at? Remember that was the decision of a let's just wear another sweater, horrendous gas lines, Jimmy Carter administration.

Those numbers -- and running your AC lowers your MPH more than anything else -- simply are not true or proveable.

Just about every large SUV burns more gas the faster you push it. The reason is a large frontal area and bad aerodynamics. I would venture to say that not one of them gets better mileage at 70 than at 60 mph - if everything else is equal - loaded weight - tire pressure - running in high gear etc. The A/C issue is pretty much a moot point at speed because of increased drag caused by running with the windows open.

I seem to recall that the rule of thumb is that the horsepower required increases by a factor of 4 for every doubling of the speed for a given Coefficient of Drag. And that something like 2/3 of the drag generated by a vehicle is from the undercarriage. Therefore making the undercarriage of a vehicle more aerodynamic would have a huge effect on mileage. That was one of the things that made the EV-1 stand out. It's CoD was something like .3 if memory serves because it's undercarriage was completely enclosed and streamlined. The problem in enclosing a IC engine powered vehicle is heat build up from the exhaust system.

I don't work for a refinery but have sold large equipment to some. The weeks of on site commissioning gave me some insight into these extremely complex process. It is actually very impressive to see that it actually works. You have many people working very hard to keep the gas flowing.

The reason why most refineries are clustered together is to have access to very important sub-suppliers and services that develop in the area. This also applies to other industries. I don't know the exact numbers but there are many temporary contractors for each permanent employee. Each contractor has specialized equipment and skills that end-up being shared by many refineries. When you look at the few isolated refineries outside Texas or Louisiana, they have to be much more reliant on themselves. This increases their operating cost as they cannot share the special equipment that is used only once a year or two. Similarly, if they have a sudden need for trained personnel, there are not many suitable people nearby.

Some of the reasons for the delays come from cost cutting and just in time philosophy. The refineries and the contractors don't have "surplus" people as they used to. Parts are not stocked as they used to. These days, nobody want to keep large inventories. So, after the storm, the refineries struggle to find the help and components needed to conduct the repairs.

When you look at all that has to be done under the conditions, they are doing a good job. Every day of delay cost the refinery a lot of money. They are motivated to get the job done quickly and safely.

Speed Recovery Efforts!!!

Does anyone remember the Valdez oil spill..... It's going on 17 years now and as far as I know claims from the locals, the fishermen and anyone impacted from this disaster have yet to receive any compensation. I have friends in Valdez and it's still prohibited to place crab pots in the bay. You'd think with the record income from the price of oil in the past years they could pay off those bills before these people die off from old age.

Here is the deal about refinery shutdowns and hurricanes. The real fear is loss of electrical power while the refinery units are still running. That is a recipe for disaster. Something like that would result in a massive explosion and fire. Therefore refineries need to shut down in preparation for a storm. It takes between 3 and 5 days to completely shut down and "inert" a refinery. And once a shutdown is initiated, it has to be carried through to the end. It is not like flipping a switch. You have to shut down the reactors, purge them with nitrogen to remove all the volatiles, vent and flare the unreacted or partially reacted product that was in the system piping. It is a long, expensive, and torturous process. And once it is done, and the storm is passed, then you have to bring the refinery back online again. THAT can take as much as two weeks or more.

Remember how I noted it takes between 3 and 5 days to bring a plant down? Hurricanes are very unpredictable, even only 3 days out. So refineries that are within the cone of uncertainty at the T-3 to T-5 day mark have to make a decision. Do they shut down or do they risk being caught having to ride out the storm while the unit is still operating? Remember that the cone of uncertainty at that point is huge, often encompassing several states. Also remember that all of their employees have an obligation to themselves and their families to prepare for the storm as well, possibly evacuating ahead of the storm. There is in fact some evidence that a number of the 400 some odd people who are still missing from the Bolivar peninsula area may have been overtaken by events and trapped on the peninsula. Many of them work for the refineries in the area, all of whom were working feverishly to shut down and inert the units. Many of the people worked late into the night Thursday shutting the refineries down with plans to go home and pack up Thursday night or Friday morning and to leave Friday by midday (Ike was not predicted to make significant landfall until Friday evening). But TXDOT shut down the Bolivar Ferry early Friday morning, and the only other road off the peninsula then flooded near the town of Sergent due to the storm surge combined with high tides shortly thereafter. That trapped all of those people in the towns of Bacliff, Point Bolivar, Gilchrist, Sergent, and Crystal Beach. Gilchrist is GONE. Out of the couple thousand structures there, only four are still standing at all and all of them are heavily damaged. Two men were washed out into Galveston Bay and washed ashore 30 miles away, thankfully alive. I'm sure hundreds of others were washed out into the bay or into the gulf and have not turned up yet.

Those people DIED trying to keep those refineries safe from the storm so that you can drive your car today and complain about gas prices. I don't even want to HEAR you trying to say that it is all a conspiracy. You don't have a clue what in hell you are saying.

Months? What is the source of this bit about months to bring facilities back on line?

If there was extensive damage yes, but that is not the case with most facilities post Ike.

It was an issue with Rita and Katrina primarily due to flooding, but even then I think the refineries did a fine job of getting back on line as soon as possible. Most of them with the staff living in FEMA trailers in the parking lot of the plant because they had no homes to go to.