Does P.E. Make the Perfect Engineer?

There is no such thing as a "Perfect Engineer".

But engineering items, processes that may never have been done before, comes from experience.

I have unknown and work with degreed, non-degreed, licensed. engineers. Yes I did say non degreed engineers.

And to make these processes, or designs work, requires personal attention. whether you went through a structure classroom, or learned it through chaos on a plant floor operations.

And if you received your degree, license or even certificate. its what you make of it.

And if you think once you received your degree or license, if you think its down hill from there, your right thats where you'll go.

I believe once you received it, thats when the hard work begins. And ones work performance would reflect it, licensed or not.

phoenix911

I agree heartily. I have over the years worked with many engineers (some degreed and some not) that were extremely capable at what they were doing as engineers. I have also worked with (and for) several degreed and licensed engineers who couldn't engineer their way out of an empty cardboard box. To me, I see a PE exam as a piece of paper that says the bearer has just jumped through another hoop that the government wants in order to put "Engineer" on the door. Essentially, from what I have been told, licensing allows the bearer to become "bonded" as an engineer and this in turn effectively stipulates that the engineer can make no mistakes in engineering judgements; that design failures are basically "Acts of God".

I have an earned doctorate in engineering with 40+ years experience and I personally find it offensive that the State believes someone taking a test or jumping through one of their hoops prevents them from making errors in engineering judgement. Many years ago, I spoke to an PE and engineering consultant about the PE licensing exams. He was a PhD graduate of MIT. He laughed about the exams and said that anyone with a Engineering PhD from a Massacheusetts university was granted a PE license as a matter of course, because when the tests were originally set up by the Exam Board it was found that a significant number of engineering professors from that Commonwealth could not pass the exams and that situation would not bode well for the graduates of their engineering schools.

Keep in mind also that the some engineering is practice protected, such as civil, mechanical and electrical, and some are title protected, chemical and agricultural. The PE license is also a way of retaining persons who are at least knowledgeable of the practice to a minimum level in their set by the state examination. A PE is much like an MD. You wouldn't want a Doctor doing something whne you really were sickk, who was not licensed as a MD or specialist even, unless of course you didn't care to survive i guess. A PE requires work experience (but not necessarily education), with education being consider as a supplement to some portion of that work experience (not all), and a knowledge of the practice. The intent is really for the protection of the general public and consumers. The use of the term engineer is not protected, but the use of the term professional engineer is, as well as the use of specific terms like civil engineer when representing your self to consumers or general public. Think of the license as a way of showing at least a minimal level of skills requird to practice. Since the laws regarding the practice of engineering are extremely well known amongst engineering students, I believe the person you indicated flagrantly violated the law as he as aknowledgeable engineer should have known the laws, especially something so commonly known at even the lowest levels of practice. With his working experience and background he probably could have aplied for a license and taken the examination, if he could have passed. Additionally, providing free engineering information usually doesn't constitute a violation of the law, so he must have provided service for a fee. Thus he was charging people under their understanding that he was an engineer, or he was supplying falsified engineered documents to state agencies who require an engineering stamp. At any rate, he knowingly violated the law beause he was too lazy or incompetant to become licensed.

The P.E. Act specifically exempts engineers who work for industry. The P.E. test in the 50's when I graduated from the University of Illinois had questions like how much water flows over a weir. There were no questions about manufacturing processes, plastics, mechanisms, etc. In short, it was a relavent as the color of my eyes. The Act was created to cover civil engineering and almost every one of the dozens of examples of "Professional Engineering" contained in the Act are cilil engineering. While I share their goal of promoting engineering as a profession, some of the tactics they have used to force engineers to join their "society" (or is it a union in disguise?) are not to protect the public, but to increase their power.

GA

The PE requirement came about because people were representing themselves as engineers, but thought 1 hp = 550 ft-lb.

The intent is to establish a minimum level of competence, not a level defined as "expert". Especially in industry, there are too many sub-fields of mechanical engineering to do any more than this.

A PE is also expected if you intend to act as an expert witness. Again, it doesn't establish you as an expert, but the court won't accept that you are one without it.

One thing I understand in Wisconsin, is that on the board you do have a chemical engineer has to be on it. Not matter if its civil, electrical, or mechanical license your testing for.

consists of (2) test of which 50% is a passing grade, one true and false, one multiple choice with proofs.

And I know, even in specialized disciplines, you still better have cross disciple knowledge.

I myself have been contempleting getting my license. I believe my views would not change, if I ever starting engineering services,........I am consulting at times though (trouble shooting existing projects designed by other engineers that turned into abortions) to an industry I am no longer in, to engineers that are licensed, I do this very cautiously.

phoenix911

off topic?..........interesting

I see no real problem with Burton, he never put Engineer on his door? If he was advertising Engineering services, then I he may have to be licenced.

The way I understand it in Michigan, if you go into business, (consulting/whatever) if you want to put the word Engineer on the door you have to be licenced, or have a percentage of staff that is?

I've worked with a ton of people who have the title Engineer that have not done the course work, most are pretty good some not. Some learn the math on thier own, and do pretty good with it. Conversly I've ran into Engineers that did the coursework and are really not good at applying it in a resonable fashon, maybe just never "got it" but, were able to pass the courses.

One thing I have noticed for sure, is those with the PE behind there name, as a group seem to be able to speek the speek and do the work that we were taught in school more often then those who did not persue it. Perfect Engineers, nawwww, just willing to keep up on the math.

Captn Pea, PE

There are no perfect engineers. Errors have occured and will occur, certainly less if the engineering experience extends over a longer period of time.

But how exactly is an engineer defined ? Normally, by graduating from an university (earning a number of credits, ...), that assumes that the graduate has (theoretical)knowledge in certain fields vital for any engineer (general: mathematics, physics, etc as well as specific fields for his particular area).

The licensing part ( licensed engineer, professional engineer, chartered, etc, whatever the denomination may be) should have more to do with the legal aspects of the project design process (responsability, liability, etc) than with the strictly professional aspects.

Since there is no way to determine in advance if the applicant for a license has indeed a certain minimal level of professional knowledge, the examination boards require a technical exam part. That part may be waived in certain conditions.

The process of official approval of a project involves, besides the technical aspects (calculations, etc) also the requirement that that particular project shall be certified(signed) by a licensed engineer. It seems that this is purely an administrative requirement.

Certain smaller projects do not require an engineering certification.

Even in case of projects not requiring a certification there is a difference if something goes wrong with a project based on a licensed or non-licensed engineer's calculations (as an example), from the point of view of the liability: in case of a non-licensed engineer, the (legal)responsibility lies with the entity that does the project, while in case of a licensed engineer, the responsibility lies with the licensed person.

Hi tomad, I couldn't agree with you more that 'There are no perfect engineers.'

The only thing about this is that you are not protected and can be held guilty as charged all the way to your grave if something happens.

If you are qualified (have the relevant papers) then you're ok, should you even make a deadly mistake you are still more protected by law, unless everybody is going against you at work.

If you're running your own business, I guess this is more important than anything, regardless how good you might be in your field.

I do believe lack of experience and real knowledge should not help to earn the real engineer recognition especially, because there are many uni students from different background who get their degrees for prestige or to claim family pride.

Surely, aims like that cannot make anyone a dedicated hands on engineer, can it?

I know it can and does but, where is the passion that you need to excel in any profession?

The PE test is not intended to state you are perfect. It is intended to show the public you have an understanding of the fundamentals. Most states require practice time (i.e. experience) as well as a demonstration of understanding the fundamentals in order to obtain a PE license. In addition, most states require that PEs participate in continuing education.

Finally, there is a current movement in the licensed engineering world to require that engineers achieve a Masters Degree. Licensure is about continuous improvement.

Finally, obtaining a PE license requires an adherence to a Code of ethics.

No degree or test guarantees perfection in design or morality. But it does show the results of years of effort. And it sets a benchmark for engineers to continue to work in a manner that holds paramount the safety, health, and welfare of the public.

For whatever reason, the aforementioned enineer shunned making a commitment to these standards. If nothing else, he should be held accountable for his disregard.

Although I impersonate a project engineer and do the job I am assigned everyday I am one of the "non degreed boys" I got to the point I am at by working in the field for nearly 30 years. I know that many times good old common sense is better when solving problems in the field this not always the case when doing the design side of things. I oversee allot of ASME type work and although I understand it very well I think and can do most all of the calculations that pertain to my job I always have a PE go over my work and stamp it. It just makes good since in my position. I think to have a peer review your work is very important no matter who you are or how you got there. I do work with allot of degreed engineers and some of them do have this attitude that they somehow payed more "dues" so to speak than I did because they went through college and got the degree. One thing I do know for sure is that I would have made it to the point I am at today allot quicker if I had went ahead and got the degree instead of the way I chose to get here. Also there is no doubt in my mind that I would make more money than I do if I had. I would suggest to any up and coming engineer to go ahead and get his degree and the PE licence if he can. I also think that if a firm calls themselves an "engineering" co. then for their own protection should have at least one P.E. employed.

Tomfranpat,

What you are stating is probably correct, and is valid for each US state.

There is a procedure of reciprocally recognizing a licensed engineer from an other state (the action denominations vary from state to state - courtesy, recognition, accreditation, ...). Some of them simply recognize a licensing exam passed in an other US state, others require the passing of an ethics exam only, while others tend to discourage licensed professionals to go this path, but instead to take all tests in their state.

In the case of Illinois (since you mentioned it), if you are a graduate from a non-US university (it does not matter which foreign university), you are required to take the general engineering exam as well as an English-language test (TOEFL or similar, in case of a university with the main language of instruction other than English)

Sometimes this requirement implies licensed engineers working for 20 years in state(s) where they are licensed to take a TOEFL exam in order to be able to register for a licensing exam in Illinois (definitely fees have to be paid).