Government Bankrolled Power Projects?

Although commercialization is not expected for decades, if ever, taxpayers are being asked to fund studies and projects right now. Should governments pick and fund winners and losers, or should technology entrepreneurs be forced to raise money for their ideas through free markets?

This technology is very expensive to develop,

As far as winners/Losers, How do you know, what will succeed or fail, or even classify them. Actually there isn't such thing as failed technology, when your pushing and expending the limits.

And by failed I mean a project that did not turn out the expected result. Even these we learn from, or.....can apply in a different situation.

If we do nothing and ask for guarantees before a penny is spent. Where do you think that would take us?

phoenix911

"If we do nothing and ask for guarantees before a penny is spent. Where do you think that would take us?" - phoenix911 It seems then, that nothing will be done until someone pays for it. If guarantees are the primary concern - what happened to the idea, the concept, the desire, the challenge? All of these were expressed by President Kennedy when he said we were going to the moon! If i remember correctly, there was no mention of guarantees, or, where the pennies would come from. The problem was obvious - we were not on the moon yet! The challenge was exciting and fired up spirit in this country. Luckily, the development of this technology was not put under control of the military. Luckily, this was and is still, considered an investment into futures by the tax payer. More than pride, I feel "hope" was what really was sought after - by everybody. From the curious about extraterrestrial life, to those needing the discovery of new medicine. I think we would have never got off of the ground if the development of this technology was left up to winners and losers. It was commercialized before its feasibility was even discussed - with books, movies, songs,costumes and on-and-on. We played with Caterpillar tractors and turnapulls in our sand boxes; laser powerhouses will have to go back to that level in order to have the tech easily accepted by the taxpayer. Once a household word, the acceptance of research funding by the taxpayer, will be easy. The question is : Can we wait that long? The answer is obviously, NO! That means that those buried in their labs and text books have the responsibility to hawk their very being to the general public; while the subject is on the table and there is still interest. The idea that the taxpayer must beg these people to work on all of this is ludicrous, since the very education of the fundamentals of the technology is already paid for by the taxpayer. If we are ever going to get ahead, the fundamentals of "free Loading on taxpayers" has to change.

I don't believe you understand. Development cost money. And in Development loses will happen. When people want guarantees that is sure to kill a project.

Estimated projections is the only way. And what will happen is cost overruns.

And you said it should be considered an investment.......and an investment in the future.

Bottom line is we agree on this, that it will not be winners/losers or black and white.

And the payoff will be new discoveries.

your statement;

If we are ever going to get ahead, the fundamentals of "free Loading on taxpayers" has to change.

Taxpayers right now is the only entity that can come close to afford these costs. but on large projects there is going to be misallocations or abuse of funds, or at least the appearance of.

Who will determined that?

phoenix911

Phoenix911 The topic is: 'Government Bankrolled Power Projects.' The argument, to quote your message, is: 'that the taxpayer is the only entity that can come close to afford these costs.' To clarify my earlier stand, I am in agreement with you on monetary costs. However, I personally am guilty of convincing my little brother, that if he gave me all of his birthday money, I would buy him a candy bar! He didn't realize that a Hershey bar would not cost me US$20.00. On the other hand, I did buy him that candy bar. Good for him that our mother was there. It may be that the average reading ability and comprehension of the average tax payer in the US, does not exceed the 7th grade. When large projects that are not going into the unknown, but are being sold to the unknowing, under the guise of research and development, then - you are right - who will be the determinator? In this case the 'Free Loading' could be - as with so many projects in the past - obscured, by terminology and confuscated, by carpetbag reasoning. Transparency in the power industry is not acclaimed and neither are the true costs of its research and development. With its weak grid work, inadequate production and high cost of electricity - it's no wonder a better and clear explanation of this situation is due to the tax payer - before more money is put on the table. The stakes here really are high. A seventh grader should be able to understand the project - unless the people doing it don't really know themselves; so, have not even goals, nor, objectives to put out there - with, or without guarantees. It's about marketing. It's about recognizing that the tax payer is the ultimate entity, it's about pre-justification - not guarantees.

WOODROOSTER,

It a hell of a complicated issue. Especially the structure in how its set up.

Actually we agree throughly.

Having worked in government contract in the defense industry. On certain projects we were allowed certain amount of waste. And we we came under that waste, we actually had to generate waste from raw perfectly good virgin product otherwise our budget would be cut.

And when we say we I mean the company. were we disgusted yes. Doing something about it I was becoming a martyr. Other than complaining about it or pointing it out, or digging deeper at the root.

Tell me, What do we do about it to fix it?

And when you push, the resistance is great. And if you carry it out to the finished. be prepared for huge personal sacrifices.

Hell, thats why I'm known as phoenix.

phoenix911

There was no class covering the subject in school. Was there? That is where the subject ' How To Get Away With It And Not Be Caught' needs to be broached. Never mind the ethics, nor, morality side of the argument. 'Do The Right Thing' is a hindsight 'thingy' well covered in the movies. Think, if you were taught how to rob a bank successfully and understood how difficult that is and how much work and sacrifice you will have to put onto the project to be successful - well, you would think twice - especially, in view of the probable consequences. It is dangerous to fight an enemy that we know nothing about. It is difficult to construct a defensive structure if we don't even have a clue of the offensive strategy. None of this is covered in Structural Engineering so don't go there for the answer. The more government there is - the more offensive action will be observed....."What is - is", so, it is said. Some things cannot be fixed - only minimized and controlled. Having young newly graduated techs come out before the 7th grade and explain to them what they just did and how they plan on applying their new knowledge is a start. Power houses prominently featured and included in the plots of well received video games is another. It has to start young to come from within. Kids from elementary through to MBA and beyond are floating in a technology stream of flotsam. Bridges and dams need to be built to control the stream. Corporations need to step into the education system to do a reality check and provide guidance and inspiration. The government can only facilitate these efforts with regulation and funding. Power houses even if privately owned - belong to the tax payer who permitted its existence and the voter....ahhh yes, ...the voter! While watching c-span coverage of President Elect Obama's acceptance speech in Chicago, I could have swore I had a real visual of 'Hope' in the eyes of the newly energized voters. Maybe the govt., can do it again with a meaningful stimulus. Maybe you and I can encourage this.

It is dangerous to fight an enemy that we know nothing about.

Or who the enemy is. When I was working in the shipyard I was approached by a colleague, and what he told me was. "You didn't hear this for me, but if you want to keep your job, you keep your mouth shut."

My reply was, I'm here to do a job, if it costs me my job by doing my job so be it.

I talked smart, but I meant it. And paid the price.

At the time I was approached by another company that also had government contracts and was being audited because of their high hourly rates, as in man hours. (one guy had 23 hours) a day pretty consistent. Its a whole nothing story.

Power houses even if privately owned - belong to the tax payer who permitted its existence and the voter....ahhh yes, ...the voter!

You mean like AIG.

While watching c-span coverage of President Elect Obama's acceptance speech in Chicago, I could have swore I had a real visual of 'Hope' in the eyes of the newly energized vote

Like Bill Clinton "I feel your pain". Its going to take more than theatrics to get a handle on this problem.

Maybe you and I can encourage this.

Diffidently,

phoenix911

No, not AIG - they're insurance. I am eluding primarily, to those nuke projects that failed, or were mothballed, for starters, then our dilapitated grid, electric power houses based with foreign made dynamos and on & on. The electric power industry has been selling a bill of goods for too long. If you watched the acceptance speech in Chicago on c-span, you would know what I mean by a real visual of "Hope" evident in the eyes of all of those voters that were there. I could not help but feel pity for these folks that did not look like they just won the super bowl - rather, like they just found a camel trail to a possible oasis in the desert. I don't believe I was looking at theatrics. I am a Republican. Now, with your personal problem: Mia Culpa, Mia Culpa, and your colleague turned out to be right! I am happy for you that you were able to confront your monster, draw a line in the sand, make a decision and do what you had to do to keep your integrity. Now that you sabotaged yourself, do you look for the same camel trail, or, have you a mission with a hidden agenda. Do you seek money, or, power? Perhaps you hallucinate that either one would allow you vindication. Define your problem so it can be identified by anybody. Because, I just snuck some garbage into the recycle bin and I am beyond correcting all of my own mistakes. I encourage you to retire if you can - I did.

I am eluding primarily, to those nuke projects that failed, or were mothballed, for starters, then our dilapitated grid, electric power houses based with foreign made dynamos and on & on.

That would be infrastructure.

I am a Republican.

I'm no longer am a Republican, I do not know what they stand for, I call myself a conservative.

Mia Culpa, Mia Culpa, and your colleague turned out to be right!

He was spot on, problem was the people involved didn't not know how to handle me,

Never met anybody that stood up, easy when you have a spine. I wasn't a complainer, I came with solutions to the problems. what it difficult, yes and both sides.

Now that you sabotaged yourself, do you look for the same camel trail, or, have you a mission with a hidden agenda.

Being honest and true to yourself is no way sabotaging myself, Odd enough I develop quite a few programs and ideas for the company that had a direct effect on improving their bottom line, in excess of 6 figures, of which they awarded me. Which also made it difficult for the people in the earlier paragraph.

As far as a mission, I guess you can call a goal a mission, as far as a hidden agenda, have no idea what you mean by that.

Do you seek money, or, power?

Money, a good living I have to say yes, as far as power, power corrupts. Look at the infrastructure.

Perhaps you hallucinate that either one would allow you vindication.

Hallucinate? No, Vindication, comes with time, and it does and is happening, but I don't dwell on it, only learn from how I handle it, and what to do different to be more effective.

Define your problem so it can be identified by anybody.

Not anybody wants to hear problems especially when it doesn't directly effect them. As far as issues to be related to people that can do something. Clearing or cleaning up Waste is like a jumping into a spider web. And when you jump, which most people will not do it especially when they know whats in it.

Because, I just snuck some garbage into the recycle bin and I am beyond correcting all of my own mistakes.

(2) things, one is "do as I say and not as I do"

and two;

But did you realize you made mistakes at the time. or did you play the best crappy hand (you may not have known its a crappy hand) that was dealt to you the best way you could. Not knowing what the outcome is.

I encourage you to retire if you can - I did.

Not every body can do that. And as far as retiring, The ones that I know that did that, basically gave up and expired soon after.

phoenix911

Yes, infrastructure, which also encompasses: highways, streets and sidewalks and the whole gamut of everything we use. As I said, I am a republican - I know what I stand for. But the way things have been going, I am not sure anymore what kind of a republic is this. Perhaps banana. Again, congratulations. From what you say - you assuredly have a spine. Mine is already protruding like a tail from too many bang ups - but, thats life. I guess. I think you may have sabotaged yourself. Look at you. You were standing in the open door to 'Yes man country' - you could have had a lucrative dishonest career. By now, you could have been in charge! And, before corruption took you down the drain - you could have had your revenge for being so misled by selling everybody out. I thought revenge might have been your hidden agenda. You sounded like a 'Power' guy to me. I envisioned you hallucinating of defeated minions crawling on their belly to fatten your larder and repeat aloud memorized platitudes; plagiarized from Smokey The Bear! All of that might have been yours. See what Power could have brought to you? Instead you choose money - the elusive. The bane of mankind. Along with it comes starvation, integrity, self worth, maybe an 'ATTABOY' and a gold watch. Oh well, it's all in vain I guess. Just play the best crappy hand you have - careful, somebody might be looking over your shoulder!!

Power houses should be nationalized and put under military control.

I'm still learning........

Our ''government'' has the technology to satisify any energy needs we may have,

it's being kept behind closed doors, the so called 'black ops'. The money for the fusion study is just just another good ole boy deal. Also makes it look as if they are concerned about our future.

EJW

Hi,

laser-fusion is a big task and is requiring big money: nearly 4 billion $$ for the NIF, and additional for the ongoing work.

This is not only motivated by energy research but (mainly ?) by nuclear weapon simulation. If you look to the time it took to start you will see that there are more than civilian arguments. (And France is building a similar system and not much talking about.)

There is a lot of open literature on NIF.

But all these fusion research experiments are far beyond private investment strategies.

This is research and research has to be agreed upon by a scientific community (open or kept secret) and decided by government agencies.

Unfortunately the physics community often is not speaking with one language: priorities of projects would be useful to know from physical, engineering and commercial arguments.

RHABE

excellent response.