Stealing Data or Saving A Career?

Great subject...
I took circuit diagrams of stuff I'd designed when I left my last company, but for reference, I wouldn't use the 'whole design' to produce a product, and while the circuit is legally the intellectual property of my former employer they don't own my though processes.
Thus I see the circuit diagrams as merely a time saver for me, rather than laboriously haveing to recall my previous work I have a record of it.
I wonder what the legal stance would be if I sat with a blank piece of paper and recreated one of my previous designs...am I in breach of copyright or stealing their intellectual property? What if I re-write some code but with the modules slightly re arranged and re-named?
As I see it, if the end product isn't competing with their product there isn't a product...so if I design a dishwasher dosing system with similar circuitry to a medical drug delivery device I previously worked on there would be no problem, even though circuit techniques and software may be distinctly similar.
There is a big distinction between the stuff I created and the other stuff, say customer lists etc...now that would be theft as I see it.... but my personal contacts book? hmmm ..

I see some good discussion on the way.
Del

Looks like you are describing the patent process but I totally agree with you. Some data / information we "take" from our previous employer and that was created by us could be considered as a patent. Although the previous employer is considered the owner of the patent, you are as well. Most employers have clauses in contracts for employees to say that they are not allowed to compete in the same field for say two years (i.e.). This is to cover for these circumstances. In all I think it is ok to use data you created as reference.

For example you might have developed an efficient calculation method for electric motor performance which you are able to use in your new job. You can't pass on the method itself to your new employer but in my opinion you can pass on the fruits of it.

Legally I think neither (previous) employer nor employee have a solid ground in this and as long as you don't abuse it (like stealing customers of your previous employer, or giving your new employer a technological advantage from data you took), there is not much that can be done to controll it.

An extreme case would be a job candidate touting actual company secrets of their past employer to a future employer. A case like that should get their resume deposited in the round file.

One thing that I believe helps a potential employee to get the job is when the candidate shows good general knowledge of the future employers processes. Especially when it is based on past experience.

One thing we have probably all seen happen is when a sales person leaves a job to go to a new employer, some contact their past customers to try to move them over to their new employer. Yikes! This is a sticky subject.

This reminds me of an episode of The Office:

Dwight Schrute: I am not a bad person. When I left Staples, I took some of their leads with me but I never intended to use them. What did I intend to do with them? Who knows. Maybe keep them as a souvenir. Maybe use them.

(In an attempt to beat the computer's sales he calls one of the leads.)

Computer: Oh. I didn't realize we could use the leads we stole from Staples?

(Dwight hangs up.)

What if nothing is "taken" ? No CD, no DVD, no thumb drive, no paper list. What if the sales person just uses what he/she remembers? Is it unethical to go after clients of their former employer? (And current competitor.)

There is a difference between using something that you have created to help you in day to day life and another to have it land you a career/job. If you can't get a job by just being honest, then there is something wrong. If you have to steal a part of the company (no matter how much you contributed) to land a job with a competing company, you are doing something wrong. That is not to say that you can't mention previous accomplishments during an interview, but giving them software from another company is morally and ethically wrong.

Instead, using networking that you have gained through the company would be a better choice. Mentioning to coworkers in a professional way that if there is an opportunity elsewhere that they know about to relay the information. Using client lists to get ahead in a competing company is foul. If you are in a rough patch and get laid off, stealing company information should not be a morally acceptable action.

However, I can understand how basic instincts kick in and ANYTHING that might get you that coveted job over someone else may be snatched up (no matter the morality).

I suppose that leaves us with two questions:

• Is it morally acceptable? No.
• Is it being accepted? Yes.

In the event that I was hired by one of my current employer's competitors, I would most certainly take every piece of software that I wrote, and also anything I had access to that I think would help me in my future job.

There are situations when you need to think about only benefiting yourself, and one of those times is when dealing with your career. It's unlikely an entire corporation will be be affected by just one person taking their work with them, but very likely your career will be greatly affected by what action you take--bringing you work with you, or forgetting about it.

A majority of people are doing it according to that survey, so it unlikely that you will be punished for it (or it even be noticed). Like driving on the highway: the speed limit is 55MPH but if a majority of people are driving 70MPH, you probably won't ever have to pay a ticket for going 70MPH.

As well, for me, I may not have much in this world, but integrity is one thing I want to carry with me to the grave to keep my soul warm.

Well said! GA

I agree, so a GA to Transcendian.

However in those cases where an employee has a genuine greivance (maybe not one that can be chased through the legal avenues) one can understand and maybe condone the action.

And of course, as Del said, what is in an employees head (unless covered by patents etc) has to be basically "in the public domain" and hence just as much their property as the company's. I would personally be perfectly happy to use my knowledge that I've acquired from college, hobies etc to help me in my work, so would expect to be able to take additional knowledge away again as a sort of "payment" in exchange. I think this is usually called "experience".

Personal address books etc - now that is a thorny one, but why should an employee keep a personal address book at work? Again this is an accepted practice in most companies so gets wrapped up in the "experience" category - and don't forget that the same companies expect to recruit people with "experience" so that they can share in the knowledge that their competitors have.

DP

I believe it all boils down to ONE word: OWNERSHIP.

MOTIVE and CONSCIENCE. Comes into play when making a decision of whether to take something from the company with you.

OWNERSHIP: If you've used company's resources to create a "product", whether it is an idea, or a business lead, whatever, it belongs to the company. Otherwise, it belongs to you, even if you did it for the company, or for an official task / assignment.

MOTIVE: If you're taking stuff from the company with you upon leaving, and it doesn't belong to you (as defined above), that's plain and simple theft. If you're taking what belongs to *you*, with the intent of using it against the company (or compete with them) later, that is malicious and unethical. You might as well leave that as a gift to the company.

CONSCIENCE: Listen to what your heart says just before leaving the company's premises, with those things in your hands. Do you feel good and peaceful about this? If not, ask your boss'es permission. Otherwise, take only what belongs to you.

Just my 2 cents.

I always save my ideas, my first sketches. I don't "steal" whole developments but I try to keep in mind (or on CD/DVD) the clue ideas. Sometimes - if it does not hurt any law - I also save the final documents of the work of my own.

I suppose the question would be what obligation did one have to the company? Did you sign an employee agreement with a no compete, or patent right clause, or some such. I don't believe any one should ever breach their personal ethics period. Nor should they break any law.

Other than the legal or ethical implications the question could get really gray. This conversation has surely come up in the past but the one thing I have always noticed is that most of us never turn it around.

What has that company or person taken from the employee?

I think if surveys dug deeper you would find that most people who have taken property from their employer have little or no remorse. Not because they are bad people but because they believed they deserved to be treated better than they were. They feel they deserve to take something with them, right or wrong. The normal person will feel guilt, but it will not stop them from from doing what they have to in order to survey in a cold world.

The complaint that people leave shortly after training is a typical management/HR piece of dumbthink....
So they loose an employee and recruit someone new...Where do they think the guy got his training/experience? What goes around comes around...or maybe there is something wrong with pay or conditions...fix it...don't stop training.

It's like the old gits who complain that they are paying for student's education. Whenever someone said that to me as a student I always said no your not, I'll be paying for it from my taxes for the rest of my life.
It's these myopic views that lead to apprenticeships and training schemes being run down. The numbers of MDs and CEOs who leave having stuffed their pockets is vastly more significant in terms of a financial drain...oooh and don't start me on non executive directors...(jobs for the boys)

Now look what you've done ..all my fur is on end.
Del

Very interesting,

I look at the situation:

How did the company treat me?

What agreements did we come to when I was hired. (one company had no problem with my two pages of prior art listed when they had strict rules on the business having all right to developed intellectual property on company time.

Last but not least, there are lines I will not cross. One company had me investigate the hiring practices of another due to some bad rumors effecting them. I took the assignment with the stipulation I will attempt to get hired and if hired to a better position I answer to my new employers but the information you are requesting would be answered by my accepting the job. As it turned out the rumors were partially correct and I would not have taken the job because they flat lied. Armed with the truth the issue was handled appropriately.

The one time I didn't take any of my work with me I was in error. The company was sold, the work was discarded and other employees offered to copy it for me. I didn't know until later the company had OKed the copies. Thousands of hours of UNIX hacks that later I end up working for the company who wrote the programs we used.

As a owner of businesses as well as a worker for others much of this could be resolved at the time of hire.

Brad

And here's another twist. The company is going into bankruptcy. You are the Engineering Professional with the data and specs that already sold customers will need to maintain their products purchased prior. The liquidation will not result in a reorganization.

Is it theft of the estate if in fact no one will be paying for that information and all the office contents get thrown into a dumpster? What is its "highest and best use?" Filling a land fill? or helping customers?

I have data that was given to me by fellow professionals early in my career that is not available anywhere else. I have data that I generated at company's prior to bankruptcy.

I would reframe the question as "Saving data to protect the innocent bystanders."

There are a lot of companies very well served because a certain metallurgist kept his data throughout his career. With the blessing of his employers before and after.

"When they hired me, I brought a full bucket. If I keep giving knowledge away, I need to keep refilling that bucket.No trade secrets, but property data." Thats the deal I negotiate upfront with my employer.

Ultimately, that's really what experience is.

milo