Crabs Not Only Suffer Pain, But Retain Memory Of It

But can they remember which side is front?

GA. Pain and fear go hand in hand in any animal's most basic survival instinct.

You might as well strap yourself in and put on your helmet, because we are in the midst of a human experiment that will create pain that will go on for generations. I'd rather be a crab.

But Professor Elwood says that in contrast to mammals, little protection is given to the millions of crustaceans that are used in the fishing and food industries each day.

He added: "More research is needed in this area where a potentially very large problem is being ignored.

"Legislation to protect crustaceans has been proposed but it is likely to cover only scientific research.

"Millions of crustacean are caught or reared in aquaculture for the food industry.

"There is no protection for these animals (with the possible exception of certain states in Australia) as the presumption is that they cannot experience pain.

"With vertebrates we are asked to err on the side of caution and I believe this is the approach to take with these crustaceans."

If the only way to protect crustacean is to 'prove' that they feel pain, then is the experiment so wrong ? I agree that the experiment should not be needed, but perhaps it's a necessary evil. Fishing as a hobby, when the fish is chucked back in the water is not right (IMHO), and scientific argument has gone nowhere in stopping that, so scientific proof of pain may well be wasted. It's hard to imagine commercial fisheries tenderly lifting prawns out of the water.

As far as I understand it, no crustacean were killed. Is it so different to the use of electric fences for mammals ? If this absurd seeming bit of research adds even one bit to encouraging respect for animal welfare, it might not be wasted. It probably is wasted, but how else would you proceed in terms of drawing attention to the topic and getting change in fishing standards ? The alternative to science is wearing t-shirts, boycotting produce, and eco-terrorism. Usually in that order.

I don't condone/support the research, merely point out that it's worth reading the whole article. That is not directed at yourself, artsmith, but more generally. People often comment on this news snippets about various topics and don't appear to have read the whole article.

Animal welfare is too big and emotive a topic for me. I'm gone.

Vegans Unite!!!

If they gather in sufficient herds, I shall be back. Food is food, and I'm not fussy if it's had a good life and been killed in an expeditious manner.

Professor Elwood also said:

"We know from previous research that they can detect harmful stimuli and withdraw from the source of the stimuli but that could be a simple reflex without the inner 'feeling' of unpleasantness that we associate with pain.."

This tells me Elwood has done it before and will do it again. A body of research on the hermit crab's pain. And ongoing speculation about whether there's unpleasantness 'felt'. Hogwash.

"Legislation to protect crustaceans has been proposed but it is likely to cover only scientific research.

AH, here we have it. Professor Elwood and others will be prevented from using crabs in cruel experiments.

But, but, but what about those shrimp dinners. All Elwood did was torture a few... Again, Hogwash to Professor Elwood for suggesting that the death of crustaceans in the food industry is in any way comparable to deliberately and repeatedly inflicting pain with electric shock, such as performed by him.

FISHING: is not intended to be cruel (except as you mentioned catch and release as a 'sport' is a rather unnecessary cruelty). No one involved in commercial fishery is engaged in deliberately tormenting or causing pain to the food animals. As noted elsewhere, mistreating animals that we kill and eat is counterproductive from an industry standpoint: it reduces commercial values as well as being ethically disgusting. In best practice, all care is taken in animal harvesting to minimize damage to the animals and maintain the quality of the product. Refining and improving best practices is okay: and so is monitoring industry to ensure best practices.

Is death painful? Probably. Still we kill other living things in order to eat and live. It's part of the bargain. The humane approach? A quick death minimizes suffering, that's the general rule. Elwood's experiments are nothing at all like the fishery, his agenda is sentimental and his methods cruel. He's also the one apparently hoping to foster "boycotting produce" and the wearing of Tshirts etc.
Bit of a paradox.

Perhaps we should do dinner Milgram with Elwood. It's about the only way of finding out the story.

catch and release as a 'sport' is a rather unnecessary cruelty

"rather unnecessary" ? - It's either cruel, or it's not.

mistreating animals that we kill and eat is counterproductive from an industry standpoint

It reduces product quality, and public revulsion at some methods is harmful to producers. However.......they can still sell cheap chicken. That doesn't tally with the industry seeing mistreated animals as counterproductive. Public awareness, and willingness to pay for better standard produce is what drives the industry. Like most people, I don't always go for more expensive meat that is claimed to be more ethically raised. The use of various 'animal friendly' sounding labels makes it impossible to tell anyway. I could go to a supermarket and find half a dozen different type of chicken egg that all claimed to be ethical produce in one way or another. They can't all be right.

Whether Elwood has a crab fetish, or if he's got a point, I still don't know for sure. Our discussion here is unlikely to change his research methods. The Japanese still slaughter whales for 'research', and worldwide debate/protest doesn't' stop it, so I don't think anyone's going to pay much mind to some crabs.

The entire debate could extend to different methods of killing animals. Oops - religion. I'll go hide again.

Cruelty in research is different from the farming or fishing of animals in order to eat, more especially where the knowledge being 'acquired' is useless, meaningless, or redundant. My point of view is to express my disgust at that. I don't deny your point and Elwood's that we should understand crabs feel pain. I just don't buy the need to torture them to find out.

I don't expect our discussion here to affect Elwood or the Japanese whale 'research'. And I am not planning to strap on a Tshirt, green paint, weapons or any other such crap to fight it out with them. I'm familiar with the horrors of the chicken industry, and I deal with it by spending the extra dime for certified organic products or whichever alternative I best know to be humane. I respect other people's choice about dietary restrictions. I cook vegan if I have vegan guests, and I enjoy it.

But since you raise Milgrim, I don't feel our words are entirely wasted here. If Milgrim's experiment was performed with people who were aware of the implications of these experiments, would the statistics be the same? Would 61-66 percent go ahead and inflict pain and abuse on another human, accepting that they are in the "nazi sheep" category of behavior? I would like to think not.

The fact is, the less we have thought, debated, and considered situations like these, the more vulnerable we are to submit to misplaced authority and unhealthy preconceptions, and to be led into senseless violence a la Milgrim. Thinking, reading, saying something about this issue is healthy IMO the fact that different perspectives are raised is a good thing. If we all agreed, it would be baa baaa baaaa, again, eh?

Yep - I'm essentially with you on all this. Just trying to stir a few more into entering the debate.

I'd very much like to see researchers test things on themselves. Many doctors have done some pretty astonishing experiments on themselves. I might try find some links later, but it's not really pertinent to the thread. Another comparison is Active Denial Systems, ADS. Whilst assuring the public that such technology caused no lasting harm, the board of Raytheon seemed reluctant to test it on themselves.

Vegetarian food is great, and I'm quite happy to observe others sensitivities when cooking/dining with them. On issues such as this thread, it's important that people state their views (rather than just thinking, "I agree/disagree", and moving on). A lack of comment could be construed as agreement with an existing situation - it's a bit like not voting in a political election. CR4 covers too many topics to expect members to comment on all, but if you read a topic that boils down (sorry, prawns ) to a yes/no type situation, taking 1 minute to post a vote/comment is not much.

Fear and learning what to fear is a law of nature and because we share the same space as animals we need to know what common human activities or abuse can affect these animals detrimentally.

Global filling causes us to occupy more space and thereby reducing space of nature. It would therefore be unwise not to research.

I wonder if this crabs were capable of communicating their knowledge to others. ??

Awareness is a universal feature of life. So is communication with other living things. There is no need to inflict pain to learn about communication within or between species. Observation and reasoning are enough.

We have a cultural conceit, that humans are the "thinkers" and are somehow set apart from other life forms. This foolish conceit underlies the most stupid, self-defeating, cruel and destructive actions and beliefs.

While living for 15+ years in a forested area I've had the opportunity to take a closer look at the life around me. There's a community of birds that live in this area, various species that share the niche and its resources, and they have taught me a lot about communication. Apparently, it is the rule not only for communication within a species, but the capacity to communicate between species is apparently normal. I could tell you stories to make the point, if you want. They seem to have no difficulty understanding one another.

Is it that humans are defective in our wiring, missing some feature that other life enjoys? Or is it purely cultural predisposition: the basic assumption that we're more important or set apart from life?

Movement and sound are two elements of communication typical of birds and many other animals: crabs don't make sound in our hearing range, but actions speak louder than words. It might be fair to say that movement forms the basis of universal language in animals. Hermit crab was heard to say: don't give me that pain again! The same thing every tortured animal will communicate.

These people claim to be studying 'behaviour'. What I see is that they are insensitive to the most basic facts of behaviour. The crab's communication = actions in response to the threat of another shock, is thought of in terms of 'learned behaviour' or 'behavioral control'. It is not even recognized as an act of communication. Now the scientists have published or communicated to other humans thel facts of their research. What does this teach us about human behaviour? What I see is a lack of sensitivity to other species and a sick preoccupation with control.

The civilized response shoud be "Sorry!" Never Again!

I haven't read the article before and did not know how how they tested "Sorry!" Never Again! Maybe the electrodes should be placed on places on the researchers where the sun do not shine. That should prevent them from reproducing.

However what I see around me is a total ignorance of nature where development is done. More research (even shocking) should be published to make the decision makers aware.

Just to be fair, Elwood's research isn't phrased in terms of behavioral control. But the control issues frequently creep into research using the same methods. Maybe Elwood's intentions are good?. However I oppose his methods of studying behavior and the rationale for using them.

I 'll have to remember that next time I drop the blue points in a pot of seasoned boiling water, I will avoid eye contact and take a swig of beer in honor of his existence

Man do the waste money on the stupidest projects

Jim C

Too bad we are trapped in the Wheel of 84". Now THAT is frightening for all, not just the crabs!