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Anonymous Poster #1

Transformer Coil Windings

06/23/2015 3:36 PM

I have a phase shifting transformer with a core and coil of 1000000 lbs. Winding material is copper. What percentage of that weight would be copper?

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#1

Re: Tansformer coil windings

06/23/2015 3:47 PM

Come on, Bob. What percentage of this answer is contained in your textbook?

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#2

Re: Tansformer coil windings

06/23/2015 3:50 PM

Possibly none of it.

Moving one million pounds of anything is not for amateurs. Come back when you have a more plausible question. And if you want a plausible answer don't post anonymously.

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#3

Re: Tansformer coil windings

06/23/2015 4:07 PM

Return it to where you stole it

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#14
In reply to #3

Re: Tansformer coil windings

06/24/2015 12:37 AM

google who is missing that beast!

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#4

Re: Tansformer coil windings

06/23/2015 4:21 PM

~22%...

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#5

Re: Tansformer coil windings

06/23/2015 4:23 PM

~78%

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#6

Re: Tansformer coil windings

06/23/2015 4:24 PM

I heard of them stealing the transformers off the poles. But to heist a piece of equipment out of a power station. I'd post anonymously too. Don't know of too many companies that would give up something of that value.

How many of your buddies it take to move it.

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#7

Re: Tansformer coil windings

06/23/2015 4:25 PM

Probably just enough to get you 2-5 years in prison for grand theft!

So, how did you move this 1,000,000 LB transformer? An appliance dolly?

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#15
In reply to #7

Re: Tansformer coil windings

06/24/2015 4:49 AM

Give him some credit, after all, The Brooklyn Bridge didn't need to be moved prior to its sale.

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#8

Re: Tansformer coil windings

06/23/2015 4:40 PM

Trick question, the transformer actually uses aluminium windings so copper content is negligible.

Oddly enough we don't measure (say) high voltage transmission sized transformers by the pound.

This really does look like a homework question (which we don't do here).

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: Tansformer coil windings

06/23/2015 4:57 PM

I think that's explains the content of most of the postings!

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Tansformer coil windings

06/23/2015 5:59 PM

Nah, that would be using us as a manned internet search engine for basic questions. Sure it has the personal touch, but it really isn't what the site is here for.

That and a free consultancy service.

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#11

Re: Tansformer Coil Windings

06/23/2015 8:17 PM

What is a tansformer coil? Never heard of it. If you meant a transformer coil, then I don't know, too many variables. Could be anywhere from 1-15%.

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Tansformer Coil Windings

06/23/2015 9:16 PM

With possible content of 16 up to 95%.

We also forgot to mention that there is maybe a ton of copper in there but zero lbs.

A couple of weeks ago somebody asked about a book for "trasformer".

Pretty entertaining if you think about it!

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#13
In reply to #11

Re: Tansformer Coil Windings

06/23/2015 11:07 PM

Look at this. While we were all responding to a thread "Tansformer Coil Windings" it now transformed into a thread "Transformer coil windings"

Thanks Admin to make us all look stupid.

Or not?

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#16

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/24/2015 9:09 AM

It totally depends on the transformer type, design, and efficiency rating.

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#17

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/24/2015 9:33 AM

A device of that size will have been accompanied by sufficient documentation to look that up locally. So, what has happened to the documentation, please?

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#18

Tansforumer Croil Wongdings

06/24/2015 9:34 AM

It may be wound with Wolfram.

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#19

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/24/2015 10:08 AM

...or bullshine. Only the documentation that came with it could say with any certainty.

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#20

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/24/2015 10:15 AM

Old Westinghouse Transformer. ABB responded that it is proprietory info and are closed mouthed about it. WAPA is the owner and they are going to ABB now to get info. Also they original drawings are archived at Ball State University and they are willing to share that info. We are just a electrical contractor who has been building substations for 25 years and haven't run into this situation before, My experience tells me that it should be between 25 and 30% copper in the core and coils. We are just trying to be sure before we make a decision on which way to proceed.

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/24/2015 10:22 AM

Thank you for that.

A little explanation will go a long way toward getting real help from the smart guys here. (present responder excepted).

Welcome to the forum.

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#23
In reply to #20

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/24/2015 10:46 AM

This does make better sense now but there is still one thing I do not understand. Why do you need to estimate how much copper exists? If your in the process of scrapping this massive transformer then the quantity can be determined after removal. If this transformer will not be scrapped then the quantity of copper seems like a moot point to me, all of it should remain.

The only scenario that comes to my mind why one would like to know how much copper exists in a massive power substation transformer is so bizarre that I'd rather not say. I will say that it involves either a neutron or proton beam accelerated to near light speeds.

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/24/2015 10:58 AM

More than likely the scrap value is part of the incentive for performing the work, and OP is trying to figure out if he can make a profit on the venture. It's kind of like "Storage Wars" or "Pawn Stars", if his estimate is too far off he'll lose money on the job since the rigging costs for something that big are tremendous.

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#27
In reply to #24

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/24/2015 11:42 AM

With a million pounds of metal, a safe bet would be to attribute all of the weight to the mild steel of the core and make that scrap material return your anticipated break even point. This way if the likely large amount of aluminum wire is used in this transformer or if too much copper corrosion has happened then a safe estimate has been applied. With this also being an old transformer there may even be a PBB or PCB oil contamination concern that may dramatically increase disposal costs.

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/24/2015 11:48 AM

WAPA claims they are PCB free and the coils are copper. Our bid was based on their info. If they are wrong they will have to make adjustments in contract.

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/24/2015 12:33 PM

Now that sounds like a good solution.

As far has a likely total amount of copper, I cannot help you there. The only information I can give you is some vague disappointing information that is probably not news to you. With the gradual but continuing improvements in ferromagnetic materials, today's cores weigh less than they do when that transformer was designed and built.

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#30
In reply to #20

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/24/2015 4:37 PM

My apology for my wise crack remark. But that is what can happen when you come here as an anonymous poster with little information.

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#22

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/24/2015 10:40 AM

Since you already have the nameplate information you can find information on approximating the answer in the J&P Transformer Book or the Westinghouse T&D Handbook.

I'm assuming that you're trying to determine the scrap value of an old transmission or power station transformer. The reason ABB won't give you any information is that it doesn't want to give out enough information so that miscreants can decide to target these things. That said, it's a relatively easy thing to do once you do an internal inspection of the unit. If you have more specs on the unit I may be able to help, but I will not post the information in a public forum such as this.

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#25
In reply to #22

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/24/2015 11:19 AM

Tadaaaa!

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#26
In reply to #22

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/24/2015 11:25 AM

Units are still energized and can't access until shoe fly is built. Yes we are trying to evaluate scrap value. I have a couple of options on how to proceed and just want to make the right decision. I have offers from scrap dealers to come in and scrap entirely, or I can work in conjunction with a dealer and sell the scrap outright.

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#31
In reply to #26

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/25/2015 2:24 AM

Energised and loaded or just energised?

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#32

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/25/2015 8:33 AM

I got lucky and tracked down original design engineer (now retired) and got the info. I needed. Things will work out well on the salvage. I thank everyone for their input. I learned more about phase shifting regulators than I ever wanted too know. Sorry about the anonymous, didn't think it was important.

Bob Woods

Interstate Electrical Contractors Inc.

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#33
In reply to #32

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/25/2015 9:35 AM

Congratulations.

Stick around. We need smart, resourceful members here.

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/25/2015 9:43 AM

Yes! I'm glad you found your information from the original engineer. Buy them a beer or whatever is their favorite adult beverage.

I also would like Bob to stick around. I'm particularly interested in getting some updates about this salvage operation and the safety protocols needed to isolate and move this massive transformer.

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#35
In reply to #32

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/26/2015 1:42 AM

Well done. How did you find out who he was?

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#36

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/26/2015 3:20 AM

That's 500 tons! How did you "get" it, and where are you keeping it?

Or, maybe I should ask "Where are you planning on getting it?"

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/26/2015 7:19 AM

He hasn't got it yet. It's still in service. I think OP is bidding for the salvage. Chop up on site and take it away piece by piece would be my guess.

Some serious urban mining. To bad commodity (scrap) prices have tanked a bit.

I wonder if you could use the trafo oil as diesel fuel?....thinking aloud.

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#38
In reply to #37

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/26/2015 4:14 PM

As usual, I delayed replying after reading the posts, and didn't see the OP declare his true identity (and intentions) in the interim.

There is nothing in my experience with this piece of equipment. A million pounds!

I snipped this:

It depends on what the oil is. In many if not all large transformers, PCB (poly-chlorinated biphenyl)-based oils were used. If so, then not!

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#39
In reply to #38

Re: Transformer Coil Windings

06/26/2015 10:07 PM

OP was told that it does not contain PCBs.

I liked those photos you shared. Gives a sense of scale.

If the oil is a reasonable diesel fuel then that's a disposal problem turned into money or can you sell second hand trafo oil?

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