Need Help in Replacing Flame with Something Else, Along with Finding Material

Any substitute for a flame will need to produce enough heat for the lantern to rise, and enough light to make it visible. An electric filament might do this, but battery weight could be an obstacle. And even then, an accident could start a fire. I don't yet see an advantage.

Say you haven't been hanging around in California have you???

Oh the irony.

Each of you has 666 good answers.

The End Is Near!

My thoughts on this are as follows.

A box kite or similar construction with the controller (and associated batteries and such) in a gondola underneath creating a fake tether load. That controller to adjust attitude of kite so that it will fly as required.

Duration could be programmed, though path would be dependant on breeze direction.

By the way, this week marks 100 years since a man called Hargreaves died. He is famous for having been the first person to "fly" in a heavier than air device that was made up of four box kites. That is he succesfully left the ground under the power developed by the device and returned safely.

Apparently he shared his designs and research outcomes with others (including the Wright brothers) so that no individual could exploit the benefits of exclusive rights.

What's wrong with flame? If you design it right, after it has been in the air long enough to get good altitude, the flame advances to the point that it ignites the sky lantern and it burns up into dry ash before hitting the ground. Of course, folks in California and the West in general will probably not want you testing it in their area.

It's not just California which should be worried. There was a huge fire at a recycling plant in Birmingham, UK, caused by a descending chinese lantern. There is no way of guaranteeing that the light is out before it returns to the ground.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-23150245

Yeah, I wasn't really very serious. Too many variables to account for.

Then by definition, it wouldn't be a <...Chinese sky lantern...>!

• A <...quarter...> of what, please?
• How about a helium balloon instead?

Sounds a bit more like a dream rather than an idea!

You will need an idea. Sorry nothing here!

Good luck!

...and there is me thinking you had something along those lines for us!! And I thought it was impossible without cluttering the environment and killing a few birds on the wing at the same time....

My mistakeS!!

Use LEDs for the light powered by a small form factor battery like a 3032 or other watch type battery. Make sure all your connections are properly soldered because of the next part.

Use a chemical reaction to create hydrogen gas to lift the lantern. Sodium hydroxide and aluminum (with water) or sodium bicarbonate and steel (with water.) The water will be most of the weight because you will be using minute amounts of metal (like thin metal strips or foil.)

Use extreme caution because hydrogen gas is extremely volatile. Hopefully you will have lift off before the explosion occurs.

Helium is much more stable but to convert hydrogen to helium you would need millions of degrees and that might burn up your rice paper lantern.

You probably shouldn't do this on your own. Get someone who knows chemistry to help. I'm just offering this as a suggestion to demonstrate how it is possible.

"I have am idea for Chinese sky lanterns"

OK, what is your idea?

Bros!

I think I came up with an idea..

Within the chinese lantern packaging, there'd be a packet of either helium or hydrogen gas - one of those two - that you'd attach to the lantern, to have it lift off.

There'd be a button on the packet of helium/hydrogen, where it'd release the gas into the packet. So, you'd out and fully expand the chinese lantern, then attach the packet of gas onto it, then press a button on the packet to release gas into it, which would then set the lantern off into the sky.

Would that work? Having a packet of floating gas that you'd attach to the lantern, to have the lantern lift off with it? Again, when ready you'd press a button on the packet, which would then interact with it by releasing the needed gas for liftoff.

Helium is pretty expensive I'm reading, as it's evidently a genuinely rare material that's only found in a handful of spots in the world.

Hydrogen however, is insanely cheaper. There's risks (flammable,potential leaks etc), but they seem to be irrelevant for this product; there'll be no flame around the lantern, and on the chinese lantern packaging, it'll clearly be labelled to keep contents inside package (to avoid gas leak from packet) until ready to use.

So, how could we incorporate hydrogen gas into the lantern? Would my hydrogen packet idea work? How could we safely store the hydrogen gas into a packet, that'd start to slowly release for a period of time, through a push of a button?

If the H₂ is just a gas, your "packet" may need to be a pressure vessel in order to contain it; thus probably too heavy for the lantern to lift it. However, if you can find a way to adsorb the H₂ to some lightweight substance, this might have a chance. But then, it will probably need a heat source to release the hydrogen, which risks igniting it.

Basically hydrogen and casual users don't mix, or rather, there is a risk of them being mixed together all over the landscape. No safety regulatory agency would allow this.

No hydrogen.....no flames......

http://www.skylanterns.us/Balloon-Lights-s/86.htm

Good link for the OP. Helium is getting very expensive because it is in short supply for industry. This kind of nonsense is part of the reason.

The US selling of its helium reserves is as daft as was the UK sale of its gold reserves. Here is an insight into helium recycling.

Who said anything about the US selling it's helium reserves? Certainly not me. There may be applications that can recycle helium, but people who use it in dewars cannot do it - it can't be contained, and escapes into the atmosphere.

"Scientists have warned that the world's most commonly used inert gas is being depleted at an astonishing rate because of a law passed in the United States in 1996 which has effectively made helium too cheap to recycle.

The law stipulates that the US National Helium Reserve, which is kept in a disused underground gas field near Amarillo, Texas - by far the biggest store of helium in the world - must all be sold off by 2015, irrespective of the market price."http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/why-the-world-is-running-out-of-helium-2059357.html

There has been a political rethink since then, but the reference I gave contains the comment "This is why it is so important to recycle helium. Both energy and helium can be rendered useless by their application (in both cases, quite literally due to the increase in entropy). However, like energy, it can also be profitable to recover the spent helium. A large fraction of helium usage results in crude helium, at least temporarily - but then is vented to the atmosphere, where it quickly becomes useless. Of the main helium uses, only welding (and sometimes purging) does not exhaust a stream of relatively high helium content that could easily be diverted. And yet in the United States, almost no helium is recovered."

There's no accounting for the stupidity of the Federal Gov.

Your suggestion to store H2 in some packet is flawed and dangerous.

The means to contain the gas for commercial periods of time are not simple.

The regulations regarding such potentially explosive gas would also stop your venture.

By the way, there's a parallel thread running on a lead acid battery "explosion" that seems to be the result of H2 release.

Your "alternate thought" though is a good start. You've gotten away from the "Hot air" to a "lighter than air" concept. Yes, the difference in density is what you need.

Years ago, we made miniature hot air balloons that went for many km, but we had small candles as the heat source. The colder the night, the better the result, so Winter was ourpreferred launch time.

Two fundamental problems here.

1. Replacing the flame (which is used to provide lift in the original design) with a LTA gas is a big problem, as Tornado said, due to the bulk and weight of any container used to store it in a compressed state.

2.While the original design, "self-destructs" your desire to have the package "self-reduce" to the size of a quarter seems impossible.

Funny how he came up with using hydrogen gas for lift and I didn't even get a almost good answer.

Alright guys, I think I came up with a solution to all this...

First, to put things into perspective - I wanted to create replicate sky lanterns, in that it'll be a balloon that'll slowly take off well beyond into the air on a lit voyage. All without actually having a cumbersome flame, along with avoiding any clean-up litter afterwords.

I thought an attached helium/hydrogen packet would work, but seems like neither would be appropriate, until hydrogen becomes safer or helium becomes cheaper (not in our lifetime).

However, I just now thought of a possible solution to all of this:

The bottom of the balloon won't be open at all. To have the balloon take off into the sky, the user will fill it once with helium on the ground, which would have it take off without any reliance on anything as it goes into the sky. So, the material will be folded like a standard deflated balloon, then it'd inflate up and launch into the sky with helium.

Here are ways in which this could happen:

1.) The package would include not only the balloons, but it'd also contain a handheld, portable canister of helium - some small device with a valve that contains helium. It'd be good for say, 20 uses or something similar - perhaps even only 5 or 10 uses.

^ Could this be possible? Handheld & portable stored helium canisters, that'd be included in the packaging?

2.) The balloon would eventually pop itself when high in the air, to avoid it deflating and littering.

^Does anybody have a clue as to how this could be pulled off?

However it'd happen, it'd need to avoid littering. I first thought of a timed self-releasing tack that'd be attached to the balloon, but that'd of course end in sharp tacks falling from the sky, so that won't do.

I thought of attaching a biodegradable packet that'd include some liquid or material that'd pop it - however, having the torn apart fall from the popped balloon would seem redundant.

What about attaching to the balloon something micro-small, that'l eventually produce enough heat to pop the balloon? Really, I think that's what would need to happen - something that the user would properly stick to the balloon and activate before take off, that would eventually heat up and pop the balloon. A programmed heat that'd pop it way after a long period of it being in the air.

3.) To have the balloon shine as bright as a flame in a sky lantern in the night sky, I'm thinking that LED light(s), encased in ultra reflective material might do it. The LED light(s) would be stored inside the balloon, so the balloon would inflate and lift off with it already inside.

^ Could this work? What are some ways to have it brightly flash to brightly illuminate the entire balloon, so it could be seen from the ground, when it's off in the sky?

4.) Material. What material could inflate from helium, aside from latex?

In other words, I need to have it blow up into shapely objects (the draw for this product will be out these sky lights will mainly serve as a seasonal gift - sky lanterns based off halloween, thanksgiving, christmas, valentine's day, etc. etc objects).

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I doubt that the lantern will be able to lift any pressurized gas container. The usual scheme, as with weather balloons for instance, is to fill the balloon from a helium cylinder on the ground, and then release the balloon.

I think the weight of a pressurized gas container will prevent flight. Sometimes it's hard to improve upon time tested concepts.

What you describe is already on the market. I refer you to post #22.

For me it seems you have a solution for something that is not a problem.

By definition a sky lantern is what it is.

Made of paper a little flame. All it needs.

Why would you like to replace the flame? It serves the purpose of creating lift and light.

And possibly causing fires.

See below!

Well I'm going to revolutionize the industry by making sky lanterns that'll be various objects - seasonal, pop culture, etc.

It's just that they litter and are possibly dangerous, so I'm coming up with a way to erase any potential controversy:

1.) portable canister of helium - small device with a valve that contains helium. It'd be good for say, 20 uses or something similar - perhaps even only 5 or 10 uses.

2.) Self-popping itself when high in the air, to avoid it deflating and littering. attaching to the balloon something micro-small, that'l eventually produce enough heat to pop the balloon is an option.

3.) LED light(s) to have the balloon shine as bright as a flame in a sky lantern in the night sky, havint the lights encased in ultra reflective material might do it.

I need to come up with material that'd inflate from helium, but also shape into pop culture characters and objects

Now you littering the environment with electronics!

So really, the material sounds to be the biggest issue..

For the material, I need to think of something that could vanish in the sky...
If the material was latex (like a traditional balloon), then there could be a thousand possibilities where we'd attach something to make it self-pop...

...However, it's pretty much impossible to create a decent pop culture character out of a latex balloon.

Preferably, something that resembles this material:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Bouncy.castle.arp.jpg

https://www.google.com/search?q=Inflatable+costume&safe=off&es_sm=122&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAmoVChMIq-rN_dLcxwIVkpSICh2ddwuv&biw=1366&bih=643

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Union-rat.jpg
Something like those ^

But what the hell could make it vanish in the air, after a period of time?
If the material was some paper material, then we could attach some timed-release liquid that would dissolve it..Could that be possible? How?

Help would be FANTASTICALLY appreciated

Paper!

I think I've decided that there'd be a portable canister of helium that'd come packaged with the balloons would be used once to light it off.

The material would be water dissolving paper - paper that'd biodegrade incredibly easily, easily within a day or less.
The balloon would have an ultra bright LED light (powered by a micro watch battery) that's surrounded by a reflective material to make it extra bright...So it can be brightly be seen from the ground.

That could work as a mass producing product, right? I'd like to start by doing holidays first, so a lot of these would be holiday characters and items, but the possibilities would be endless.

I believe I don't even need to have the balloon disappear in the sky, if the material is going to be instantly biodegradable - dissolving paper would be amongst the fastest biodegradable material on earth.

So, if I patched together this dissolving paper to make a character (santa clause etc), would filling helium inside it blow it up to a proportional character? Would there need to be anything else that'd be required to make his arms, legs, head etc inflate out?

I'd imagine that at the bottom of every balloon, there'd be a spot to fill in helium, to have it inflate out and lift off.

here's some examples of dissolving paper:

http://www.daymarktechnologies.com/categories/Dissolving-Paper/7/1

http://www.sulky.com/item/sulky-paper-solvy-stabilizer-white-85-x-11-pkg-12-sheets

http://www.dissolvo.com/water-soluble-paper/

this site has colored dissolving paper:

http://www.aquasolpaper.com/