Burning Question for Sunday Morning

All manuals should be emblazoned with RTFM, translated into the destination language.

Pretty sure, you noticed the trend, given that you were here 8 years to date,

How I wish, they would ask on line job. Here is like a social welfare, we don't get paid by our contribution, but its fun, since one is not obliged to give their best.

Maybe the equipment is stolen?

I don't doubt what you say.

But, somewhere there must be a name on the machine that the new abuser user can find and use to get information about their new, worn out piece of equipment.

How come they can find us the, "Engineers Place For News and Discussion" not the "Desperate Equipment Users Place For Free Advice" and not a real source of information for their machine.

Laziness, desperation and the allure of free advice come to mind.

When you're into maintenance services of equipment, usually the former contractor keeps all the manuals when they go and owner or owner side in-charge failed to keep their property.

Worst is, some modification was done and you have no idea what or where to trace certain connections. (Below is an example of good engineering/IT wiring, looks like xmas deco, nope may be halloween party)

I'd rather design(controls) than troubleshoot such equipment.

One more thing is, management will often choose the lowest bid, which also comes incompetent and incapacitated personnel.

I've opened a panel door and seen that...

I truly believe it is laziness.

What's easier than typing a half assed question in a forum with a description of the machinery. Almost every long time member is able to find the manual using a very simple "GOOGLE" search and it usually shows in the first hit too?

Laziness I say!

That's really one of undeniable factor.

Probably, this is due to lack of value towards work and education. Some work just for living, some work because it's just their purpose or role in life.

To much is given, much is expected.

"I suspect that tcmtech is correct about why they don't have the manual, but that doesn't answer the question why that can't find it online."

You really need to work with my wife to understand how that works.

Basically some people find themselves to be too important to have to stoop so low as to have to figure out (think about) what words or wording will get them the best/correct results on a internet search engine.

Ahem, I have taught many people to fish....

GA ! An excellent book, no doubt.

This site is "on line"

oilcan13

What would you have done if there was no manual online?

It did have a procedure of attempting it on his own.... that should have a few points.

Yeah, you get stuff like English "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" coming out in Russian as "the vodka is great but the meat is spoiled."

I have read manuals that I thought must have been translated from English to Chinese, then to Hindi and back to English.

Don't you think that the translated manual, no matter how poorly done, might still contain understandable information such as the manufacturer's name, address, telephone number and numerous web sites?

Several years ago a supplier gave me a baseball hat with their logo on it. Nothing outstanding, just another hat. The inside label said it was made in Bangladesh. When I went to put it on there was a small piece of paper with fine print on it. About 10 languages on it with something in fine print. Figured out a few languages were Spanish, French, some sort of Arabic and maybe Russian among them but no English.

Went to one of our Spanish speaking employees and asked her what it said. She replied, "Adjust size with rear strap". It was good they included instructions because I couldn't find a front strap to adjust the size with. Such a technical thing may be beyond the comprehension of an engineer!

After all that I gave it to her for her son. At least he knows how to adjust the size!

Good Luck, Old Salt

I experienced that on CNC equipment. The manual was poorly translated from Japanese. The only thing reliable was the ladder logic.

In order to properly understand/utilize any technical manual you generally need some background knowledge on its function, and that is what is lacking from those posters.

For example, one of my friends is a dentist, and I enjoy reading his trade publications that tout the latest in dental technology, but I am absolutely clueless when it comes to the background knowledge necessary to utilize them. I could go to the dental forums and post a question on how to use the XYZ dental implant system but I would quickly get laughed off of the site.

Fortunately I know my own limitations when it comes to dentistry, but I suspect unfortunately that many of the posters here "don't even know what they don't know" about engineering and expect to get a free education.

I used to go to the various generating stations in our system and teach the COs (Control Operators) the "how and whys" of what happens when they operated the generator controls. It was an eye opening experience to see how much of what they did was based on rote training, and how little was based on any formal understanding of the underlying concepts. The flip side of this is that none of these folks would ever consider themselves capable of doing any engineering on these systems, unlike some of the posters we get here.

The rote stuff was probably related to how to handle problems when readings started to get out of spec, or when an unusual situation was expected.

While I cannot boast of any first-hand generating station experience, I had many opportunities to visit stations in the course of one job, and when the SHTF, action is required almost without stopping to think (although in rare cases thinking is necessary) since things go bad very quickly, and the number of people potentially effected is large.

CR4 helped me repair my digital camera. It wasn't worth it in the long run but the experience was priceless. The best part was the video on how to do it. And of course, a source for the repair part I needed.

Often equipment will pass through many hands before reaching the end user.

Goods in.
Quality Engineering, (this was a misnomer in the company I worked at 40 years ago) who build it into a test rack and "file" the manual somewhere.
Deparmental heads who "file" the manual somewhere.
etc.
These days one would hope the manuals would be available online.

Often the manuals are worse than useless and the user interface software of some instruments is V poor.
Where I work we've started doing some Youtube vids to show the set up procedures, vastly more understandable than a poorly written manual that wasn't originated in your first language. (No it's not just the Chinese... Italian instruction manuals are somewhat iffy too.

The one's I write are of course exemplary... until marketing cave in to a load of unecessary software changes at the request of a power crazed minion from the customer's middle management structure. He feels they are necessary because Lyndoor inductries product has the automatic arse wiping feature features so he wants them on the ChrisDel product too.

Del

I just bought an 8 channel strip chart recorder that has been out of production for over 10 years. I bought it for $150 and it works like new. The original sale price was nearly $8000 but it came with a manual when new.

Fortunately, I am very familiar with the operation of this device because there are no complete manuals on line, being a model older than the internet.

It only has a few membrane buttons on it and from the appearance it was hardly used. It also has a small LCD display and all of the settings are accessed via menus that you must step through to obtain the function you like.

Every other electrical engineer that I worked with were so intimidated by the menu's that I became the primary user. Even when they had the manual, many of them would refuse to use it. Perhaps it needed pictures of naked people to get them to turn past the front page.

Lot's of points made, but I don't think I saw a real obvious one,,, why do the work when you can get someone else to do it for you?

I understand that this happens a lot.

Thanks I was going to post that but decided to wait until somebody else did....

And then there are the just plain stupid manuals that leave you clueless when..."turn knob A, and the red light will go on"...but no information about how to trouble shoot if the light does NOT go on! That usually happens after a long and complex number of steps in setting up some software!

It is strange that people come here for answers that should be in a manual. I know in my job, I can count on the instrument manual to be immediately confiscated by Documentation and filed in the customer manual we send with our systems. Therefore, I've developed the habit of not even looking for it, but immediately hitting Google to get a manual. You'd think others would realize that the manuals are ALWAYS online. Allen Bradley now charges you if you want the printed versions and expects you will instead download them for free.

I wonder if the language barrier is the issue here? You can't question a printed manual if you can't understand the instructions correctly, but a living person on CR4 can explain three times if necessary. If the manual they got was translated into their language by the same people who do translations from German to English, or Chinese to English, then I know why they come to CR4.

Then there are the new form of manuals which, because of the translation issue, are done entirely in pictures and charts. The German instrument manufacturers are becoming fanatical users of this form of manual. They are worse than a bad translation.

Lyn: You have just negated my life-log adage - 'if all else fails read the instructions!'

Now you tell me the instructions are no good.

it looks as though I need to change the adage to - 'before doing anything - call CR4'

Adapt or perish.

You are right, many owner manuals disappear in "higher" offices, for voluminous docs often with new golden covers. The equipment is running, at first because new and installed by the builder. Later it will run, due to the experience of the service personal , who never did see a paper.....WZEJDL2A

And I guarantee that no one in those "higher" offices understands squat about the contents.

I have several pieces of equipment here that were manufactured overseas. I find that even thou the person that wrote the manual or translated it think they know English. They do not know idiosyncrasies of the English language to produce a document that is easy to read and understand. I will say some companies are better then others in producing manuals that are understandable. I guess it comes down to what they want to pay those individuals to do the translation. Or how much they care. Some even use it to sell service.

Can't bash them too much. How would you like it if you bought a US American piece of equipment. Had a problem with it. Called their tech service and got some foreign answering service( not US).

"Called their tech service and got some foreign answering service( not US)."

Yes, all the time. Just had a bout with Sears over a new stove/oven. Their email system is designed to not allow you to communicate with anyone.

Their phone "customer service" system is worse, if you can understand the foreign tongue spoken.

lyn - That is why I read the posts & decide to refrain from any replies. This is going to bother some, but, very educated people have an absence of common sense. I would say about 90% are very literal & over analyzers. Most technical writers need a degree to have the job of writing instructions for people who don't have the education needed to read it. So, they over analyze it or use common sense when reading it & everybody gets confused!

Over the years I have worked on a variety of commercial cooking equipment, that is purchased by one group of people & then put in place for for the operators. The installers usually throw the Install Instructions away - no real info. anyway. The Users Manual if given to the operators may or may not be read, but never seems to be followed.

I am totally confused by your entire post.

It is so full of contradictions that I am having trouble understanding just what point you are trying to make.

I know some Jayhawks that I can readily communicate with. Pardon my participle.

You are pardoned lyn.

1st - I agree with you on the silly posts.

2nd - I have noticed the trend you are talking about.

3rd - the info. is usually hard to understand, foreign or not (original post, #15, & #33).

4th - Operators & manuals ( #'s 18,22, & 27).

Sorry, it was right before going home & I was in a hurry. From now on I will reply to individual posts one at a time or not at all. Your original post intrigued me, thank you for that.

Thanks for the clarification.

I literally overanalyzed your first post.

Most technical writers, I would say about 90% are very educated people who have an absence of common sense & are very literal & over analyzers. They need a degree to have the job of writing instructions for people who don't have the education needed to read it. So, when reading the information, either they over analyze it or use too much common sense when reading it.

My technical writing grades sucked, you can't use the K.I.S.S. principles. Going back it confused me too, so, I tried to rewrite it.

I wonder what the "boss" has to say. I don't want any excuses, just do the dame work.

Sometimes things just aren't what they seem.

Yes! This meets all current USA "Country of Origin" labeling requirements.

And we a re back to: "BUYER BEWARE!"

The orange plastic portion was probably made in the USA as noted. but the metal casting and who knows what else was made in China, so your comment is probably on the money.

Seems a petty thing to waste years being bothered by but to each their own. It's more than likely they may live in a country where internet access is severly restricted. Sadly not all people live in freedom and many may have never even heard of google. A google search of censored countries quickly shows much of the world suffers from government censorship. They may be lucky to even get email let alone being able to search the internet. If all else fails you could always just ask the OP of such a post and finally have an answer. Just a thought of course, assuming you really want an answer.

#36

Why not practice what you preach?

You obviously have no interest in anything other than trolling.

Why not read what you wrote on the bottom of all your responses.

"Do not engage the troll's! They seem harmless witless creatures but they will not stop till they ruin your thread if you offer so much as a table scrap! "

Gee, just trying to help you like you keep trying to help me on my threads! Many users openly offer their thoughts and advice, comes with the territory. Get used to it! :)

Good morning all. My experience has been manuals seem to be written by people whose first language is not the preferred language. While Google translate is OK, it is not sufficient for technical descriptions. Second complaint is that writer has not tried to follow his instructions. Lastly, reading comprehension is no longer rigorously taught, why bother when a youtube video is worth 10,000 words. And a link to tcmtech or Solareagle 100K

It depends too, on the country of origin, the level of comprehension of the reader and their level of knowledge of the equipment.

"Second complaint is that writer has not tried to follow his instructions."

Also, many writers have never operated the equipment.

In my RAF days we had to assemble a Zeis rectifying enlarger. The original instructions were in German. The RAF had an officer fluent in German (actually quite a lot back in the postwar 50's) and he translated it for us and rewrote it literally in English. We had no trouble making sense of it, and step-by-step we successfully built the enlarger.

But on reflection we should have read the whole document from end to end before commencing construction. I have no idea if German logic of methodology is different to ours but one of the last things in the step-by-step 'written' instructions was to connect an internal cable.

Unfortunately it required us to almost dismantle much of the enlarger to gain access to the connectors necessary to complete the last step.

Paraphrased in terms of simple logic was to carry out steps 1 to 50...after connecting the cable..... which you did not realise until step 49.

It runs along the line of the 'intelligence' test where you are asked to complete a questionnaire. The instructions are to read every question before writing anything down.

It starts with Q1 - your name. Q2 - address, Q3 - date etc, etc,

Last question Q50 - write only your name and nothing else in answer to every question.

Google translate is NOT OK!

Several years ago a chief wanted to explain certain requirements of a city code to the local Chinese community, and used Google translate to put the English wording into Chinese.

A co-worker who was born and raised in Beijing, and is a certified translator for Mandarin, looked at the "translation" and remarked "No Chinese person that I know will ever be able to understand that."