Do dousing rods work

Oh. I see. I had it all wrong. Theory has only one hard, fast meaning. Well, thank you kind sir.

Careful now, crow has bones much like chicken. Both can be choked on.

I wonder if Mr Popper was terminally self righteous, narrowminded, oddly selective in suppositon, and arrogant?

Alastair?

In the link you posted above, it says about a theory:

"... It originates from or is supported by experimental evidence..."

In concrete reality it means, that it is subject to be proved or disproved (by experimental evidence, no less) in order to be considered scientific. I hope this is not too much of a mental leap to associate.

Mr. Popper is widely considered (I'm sure), as the most significant philosopher and methodologist of modern science.

Yes, there is such a field called "Philosophy Of Science".

There, on the section of "Grounds of validity of scientific reasoning", please refer to the sub-section called "Falsifiability" named after the principle Mr. Popper established.

You may use the term "Theory" as you wish, and give it whichever meaning you like, but in order to have a meaningful discussion involving scientific terms, we must adhere, I think, to those commonly agreed upon by the wide scientific community.

point made. point taken. further agreed.

Your logic seems virtually impossible to counter. What an easy way to make $1,000,000, clear the reputation of dowsing, and by promoting its use, bring $billions of benefits to mankind. Imagine being able to locate oil resources for tiny fractions of what is spent currently. Even if no one is motivated to claim the prize for the monetary reward, there must be someone willing to claim it for the good of mankind, right?

I've asked duffdr to claim the prize, and report on his progress. I am anxious to see how he does.

I am in no way suggesting that dowsing can be proved by scientific means. For all I know it is complete hogwash. However, I and countless others have seen it work. I also have seen a magician turn a handkerchief into a dove. I do not suggest the dove has 'vanished' through disruption of the laws of physics. But it has in fact 'disappeared' relative to context.

Mr. Fry I am not attempting some childish bout of circular reasoning or the likes. I agree that if the criteria will allow for the proving of such it would have been proven relative to the stated criteria. Believe me I wish we could prove/disprove many things. Only there will, thankfully always be a tickler. Yet once we have accomplished such goals lets not jump about beating our chests saying I told you so. The fact that it has not been proven does not, as Mr Yuval pointed out so eloquently, mean it has been dis-proven.

I lay the subject down, and respectfully offer my hand in appreciation for the engagement. I do enjoy the exchange of ideas immensely and admittedly have much to learn. That is good, for I am yet teachable.

Hi Blink ,

I too will be waiting for the results and shout it prove to stand up to scientific analysis I will be the second, after yourself, to congratulate whoever demonstrates it on their success.

If it can be shown to stand up to stand up to scientific scrutiny I will be watching with great interest what scientists propose are the physics behind it as it may well be a scientific breakthrough that opens up a whole new understanding of the universe.

However, until it has been show to be predictably repeatable under controlled conditions, it must remain nothing more than a curiosity that is supported by nothing more than anecdotal evidence.

Hold you horses, big guy. My point was not "Does dowsing work?" if it's there, and people pay for it, they must get something for their money, otherwise they're taken for a ride... Right?

My point was about, "Do dousing rods work?" (see the thread-caption), to which I said what already I said (read above).

If you feel "a bit of axe grinding" as you said, let me assure you it's not on my part. I'm quite confident with what I said here, and have nothing particular to quarrel about.

Do you carry a grudge for something else? Feel free to write to my mail box.

As to your "...Aren't theories in science commonly used although they cannot be proven/disproven? ..." above, please give some specific examples to which we can seriously relate.

Otherwise it's just a mud-slinging contest.

I am happy to see such great interest in this post .I hope I get a gold star for over 120 comments.

In fact I am not a scientist but better described as a Yankee pragmatist if you can show me I just might believe it .

I wanted to comment before we put this to bed that through the ages what could not be readily explained has been denounced as crap , but later found to have merit and conversely as well.

The medical profession has proven that many times first believing it was good theory to bleed people ,misunderstanding germs and disease and all the time belligerently believing they were above reproach.

The science community should be a little more open to new ideas rather than having the same dismissive attitude ,remember people were originally closed to electricity,motorized travel and the blasphemous idea man could ever go to the moon.

I believe there will be eventually be understanding of phenomenons we do not yet understand and a truly intelligent person should keep an open mind .

I posed the question recently that electricity might be transmitted wirlessly only to be assaulted by "the real experts" it appears M.I.T. has had substantial breakthroughs in exactly that concept recently and "those experts" might think twice before slamming an idea .

I agree dowsing is a long shot and if I could do it I would be collecting the 2.5 million

but my mind is open and I'm always willing to learn something.

Phenomenon always awed me and led me to pursue a technical career, so I agree with you. And to keep this train of "the unexplained" going, may I diverse and start a new discussion on the soap bar in the bed to relieve leg cramps and restless leg syndrome? I do it and my doctor has created a log of people who swear by it, have had swelling in legs reduced, easing of cramps, and RLS.

I meant to type diverge, not diverse

FYI, there is an article in today's (Aug 3) Wall Street Journal, "In Race to Find Water, It's Science vs. Witchers" on p. B1 below the fold. It's mostly anecdotal, rather than technical, but I thought you might find it interesting. I could probably figure out a way to get it to you if you can't get to today's issue.

jhammond

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Thanks jhammond, iwas going to post same myself.

milo

I believe this is the article you are referring to

In Race to Find Water, It's Science vs. Witches

I think what everyone is forgetting here is that to make divining rods work properly, they must first be rubbed against the head of a dwarf.

If I may be so bold as to comment on this subject, Southern Spain is very dry and the locals always get the local dowser in when a well is drilled! I have seen them strut their funky stuff and find water on numerous occasions! Each time I see them do it I ask myself 'How does it work?'. I've tried it myself and I cannot say that I was successful or not! Like many things unknown, we need to find a logical answer! Once the world was flat, now it is known to be round! Once the universe was made up of only 5 elements, now we know of over 105 ( or more) Once the world was held upon the shoulders of a giant tortoise, need I say more! What I am suggesting is that we don't rebuff the dowsing as hogwash but look at it in a more sceptical view, asking ourselves how we can prove or disprove the practice scientifically! I am neither for nor against it, all I want to know is the truth!

ps. It is very hot here, so forgive me if I sound pompous! It took me an hour to read the whole thread and so far all we have said is yes it works, I've seen it or no it doesn't, there's no proof! Has anybody done any independent tests on this or are we all in our own little rigid cages unwilling to look deeper! Remember, nothing ventured, nothing gained!

There is an ancient method of North-African Tuaregi nomads to find natural water wells and water holes in the desert.

They would feed monkeys with salt, and let them find water by smell.

It is very hot here, so forgive me if I sound pompous!

From my perspective, you don't sound the least bit pompous. But then I have a penchant for sounding pompous, myself, so perhaps I don't recognize it in others. At least I can say, in comparison to me, you don't sound pompous at all!

The world of medicine is full of idiopathic diseases. We don't know what causes them, but clearly they exist.

It's (almost) astounding to me that we cannot read one another's thoughts. We know these are electrical impulses. We can reliably see field strength patterns associated with particular concepts and even particular words. One would think, that by "putting our heads together" thoughts could transfer from one person to the other. Scientifically, it seems almost more difficult to explain why that does not happen than why it should.

On the other hand, the Randi prize seems like a perfect venue for putting to rest any doubts re dowsing. Why is no one claiming the prize?

"...Why is no one claiming the prize?..."

This 'Occam's Razor' question, is just about the essence of this whole discussion

There should be such prize for:

- UFO and extraterrestrial alien visitations

- Cold Fusion

- Free Energy machines

- - - You (all) are invited to name the rest. There is no shortage.

As far as telepathy is concerned, you're just not trying hard enough. First, you have to drill a couple of small holes.

Belief is a strong thing! There are people that are brought up from birth to believe that if a shaman points his turkey bone at them, they will die. And, for these people, the power of belief is so strong that they do.

Furthermore, you have to take into account the media. It's more fun and entertaining to believe in mysteries rather than fact. Every haunted house investigation I've seen on TV never produces a single spirit. However, the researchers are allowed to say "Wow! I really sense a presence over here!" Interesting enough for Pepsi Co. to fork out the advertising money.

The sad part of it is when some one does set up a scientific experiment for dowsing (to stay on topic), the dowsers fail. Sadly, the tests wind up at best on a segment of some show on the Discovery channel in non-prime time. On the other hand, the dowsers are featured on nation-wide radio broadcasts and national prime time TV. The point is we don't see the scientific trials because they're not entertaining, not because they've never been done.

Hi vermin,

• The sad part of it is when some one does set up a scientific experiment for dowsing (to stay on topic), the dowsers fail. Sadly, the tests wind up at best on a segment of some show on the Discovery channel in non-prime time. On the other hand, the dowsers are featured on nation-wide radio broadcasts and national prime time TV. The point is we don't see the scientific trials because they're not entertaining, not because they've never been done.

How very true. Another point that keeps getting overlooked is it's the responsibility of the dousers to scientifically prove their claims and not the scientists to disprove their claims. Until anything is proven by the claimant it can only be classed as anecdotal.

Vermin's point is also very valid and every time dousing has be tested scientifically it has failed miserably but we never hear about these negative results only the occasional success.

I cant remember who said this and at whom it was aimed but if you make enough predictions about enough future events sooner or later some are bound to come true. If we only hear about the successes and not the myriad of failures the results become skewed and appear to confirm the ability of the claimant to predict the future. The other problem with predicting the future is that if you are vague enough you can fit just about anything into the prediction.

Interestingly I did find this report Australian Skeptics Divining Test that details how in 1980 Dick Smith and James Randi offered a prize and tested Australian dowsers that claimed they could find water or gold. The results were no better than chance. There are also a myriad of other web pages that show how it has been shown to fail.

If anybody can produce documentation that shows dousing or divining has been demonstrated successfully under scientific scrutiny pleas direct us to it.. However, until then the only conclusion that can be drawn is that dousing or divining does not work and has no basis in fact, science or truth.

I cant remember who said this and at whom it was aimed but if you make enough predictions about enough future events sooner or later some are bound to come true.

It's probably as old as the hills. To put it another way.

The odds of winning the National Lottery in Britain are something like 15 million to one. If you have time, you could send us all e-mails predicting next weeks draw. Every person gets one of the possible number combinations. Well surprise surprise. somebody is going to think you have amazing powers. You could change it all slightly to predict how the toss of a coin would be. Each time you take the winning group and make another prediction for them, etc etc I don't think it would take long before you had enthusiastic following. Heck they'd probably stand upside down with their head in a bucket of custard if you told them to. Even Lisa effing Simpson said something much the same !

Yup, it sure is weird. Like you and plenty of others have said, the onus of proof is on the claimants. Isn't there a saying something like 'you can't prove a negative proposition'.

I'm off for a drink, and I'm not going to be using any twigs. There are numerous signpost in the UK that say things like 'Free House'. It's a sure bet on a nice Sunday.

Well said masu, you have more patience than me for explaining.

You could also get your followers to believe that the reason why you didn't hit it is because someone in the group is a non-believer, and should be routed out and banished, no matter how many believers you have to sacrifice!

Hi Kris,

• The odds of winning the National Lottery in Britain are something like 15 million to one. If you have time, you could send us all e-mails predicting next weeks draw. Every person gets one of the possible number combinations. Well surprise surprise. somebody is going to think you have amazing powers.

I remember hearing of a scam that worked along very similar lines. You start off sending 1024 letters to people stating you have a foolproof way of predicting the results of football matches in demand and that you are going to prove it by predicting several results in advance.

Ok, after the first week you get half of them wrong and so week two you only send letters to the 512 matches you predicted correctly. Week three it is down to 256, week 4 128 week 5 64 and week 6 32.

Now after week 6 you have 16 schmuks that are convinced you really can predict the results of a match in advance because you have demonstrated your ability over the last six weeks. You now reel in your catch by asking them for a bucket load of money for a share of the secret.

Provided you spread the recipients out over a large enough are that ensures none of the prospective victims will come across any of the others it's pretty easy to pull off.

Belief is a strong thing! There are people that are brought up from birth to believe that if a shaman points his turkey bone at them, they will die. And, for these people, the power of belief is so strong that they do.

Where is traditional. Haven't heard from him since 8/2. He must be quite enjoying this jousting contest.

Just for fun I went back to my comment #1 about utility location and, in the new system rated it off topic. I thought it might reduce the post count by about 30%.

Dowsing rods work great for getting the wax out of your ears or poking in a badger hole to see if any one is home. They also make great toothpicks if you're English and you have those really wide gaps between your teeth.

Oh! do they work for finding things? Not usually, unless you trade them for the information about where something is hidden.

Well, after all this time, I have data to report. Last month, we had a well drilled at my mother's farmhouse. For years, we lived on the farm growing up with a small drinking water well that would only produce 5 months out of a year, a roof-fed cistern, and getting gallon jugs of drinking water filled at friends' houses in the nearby town. 40 years ago, they drilled right next to the house, went a couple hundred feet down before they hit anything, and it was salty. So we got by with the cistern. But neighboring farms and houses within a half mile had plenty of water from their wells (4 - 7 gpm).

Now that my mom is 80, we decided it was time for her to stop hauling drinking water jugs in and bathing in that cistern water that had whatever washed off the house roof in it. So we had a well driller come in. He started by wandering around with the two rods. Every so often, they would swivel and point together, or possibly he would make them point, I couldn't tell for certain. Finally, we settled on a "good spot" about 100 feet up the hill from the house. This is on a moderately sloped hill with a lot of clay. Three feet down it's shale bedrock for who knows how deep. He drilled there, and now we have a working well that produces decent water at 2gpm. It's 100 feet deep, with water at about 40 - 50 feet, so there is ~ a 75 gallon reserve. Not a gusher but enough to get by. Plus this has been one of the driest years in the past 50, so it will probably get better.

My conclusion after all this - maybe it works. Maybe it was luck. Still, lacking anything better, it was worth a try, especially for the cost. What the hell.

jhammond

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www.patent-innovations.com

And I had the quirky impression, that this thread was long gone away from dousing rods into the realms of hydrostarring and anti-gravi whatchamacallit and into the the kingdom of over unity at large... Phew!

Was it all off-topic ?

I see. It's the other thread I'm talking about.

I better take my medication. The sooner the better. Too much free energy.

What was it ?

Ah, yes...

"I'd better have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy"

Yes I keep them in the closet next to Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, and Little Bo Peep with her sheep !

IDIOT

The bigger they are, the more accurate the dousing

Huh?

The bigger the aquifer, the more accurate dousing you got !

- If your bull's eye is the size of a football field, the more likely you're about to hit it with your eyes closed

- If you're right on top of a gigantic aquifer your dousing will hardly ever miss

What I do is:

A. Get a positive geological survey;

B. Map the most likely area with ground-penetrating Doppler sonar (piezo ground-microphones to record returning ground resonance from small evenly-placed explosive charges), to isolate pockets of underground liquids;

C. Mark those areas for my later notice, with innocent-looking rocks or local scrap;

D. Get my dousing-rods from my closet and put them in a fancy-looking leather case;

E. Invite the interested prospectors to the above-mapped location, and show them (using my dousing-rods) where to start drilling while pretending that these rusty old rods which my grandma gave me did all the work;

F. Get paid !

So, in conclusion?

Yes, dousing-rods work, and then some, I mean, they do their job don't they ?

Oh, I almost forgot, vermin, as you hold the rods, you slightly tilt you hand, to point the rods, to cross each other (the agreed sign for "bingo!") or face away from each other (the agreed sign for "Jack-S**t").

Yeah, but I thought I just said that.

I was merely re-affirming your say.