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A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/28/2016 2:45 AM

Can any one help me with information on the following AC electric motor? It comes off a metal lathe and can be run in either direction by a rotary switch.

Details are AC 240 V, 50 Hz, 1/2 HP, 4.2 Amps, Class E (which I presume is the class of the heat insulation on the wiring), capacitor start, built for continuous running and built in the peoples republic of China. There is one more thing on the manufactures plate and that is simply No 3.

I can get it to run in one direction by giving it a hand start. It hesitates but then starts to turn. In the other direction it does the same but then stops, starts again before coming to a complete halt and repeats this till the voltage is removed. Before giving it a hand start the motor growls and vibrates for both directions. There are four wires into the motor via a terminal block, plus an earth line. The capacitor is under a cover screwed to the side of the motor. This machine has cost me plenty over the last two years and I would like to get an idea of the size of the job before throwing more money at it. Any help would be appreciated. I am not very good with computers but a quick web search gave me no real help.

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#1

Re: A scrap it or fix it conundrum

03/28/2016 3:24 AM

What is your own electrical supply voltage and frequency?
Next, it could be a bad capacitor, which would usually be an inexpensive replacement.

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#2

Re: A scrap it or fix it conundrum

03/28/2016 6:20 AM

Agree with tornado. Symptoms sound like dead capacitor (or inactive capacitor circuit.) and could be easily checked by repair shop technician who would have access to necessary replacement itmes.

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#3

Re: A scrap it or fix it conundrum

03/28/2016 6:43 AM

Open the motor up by removing (assuming it is like most motors assembly) the 4 long bolts that hold the end housings on.

Inspect the centripetal switch, examine the contact for arching damage, and that the mechanism works. On the shaft is a mechanical speed mechanism and this has springs, ensure it is not broken or 'gummed' up.

Now if you have an analog type ohm meter, you can test the capacitor by putting the meter in a high ohms range. Connect one of the test leads to one side of the capacitor (hold it there), touch the other lead to the other capacitor terminal. The meter should deflect towards zero ohms as the battery in the meter is charging the capacitor, as the capacitor comes up to 'charge' it will go back to the infinity indication. This also detects a shorted capacitor, as the meter will read low ohms if this is the case. This will not work with a digital meter (unless it has a very high digitizing rate so you can see it charge then drift back up to high impedance).

And put some witness marks (scratches or ink pen) on the case of the motor before disassembly to ensure putting things back in the same place. Also when it's apart it's a good time to lubricate the bearings, either sleeve bushings or ball bearings. The ball bearings may be of a shielded type, but I've been able to take a small screw driver and remove the shield from one side (by inserting it between the inner race and the shield edge). Then I wash the old grease out with brake cleaner, then apply new grease, then reinstall the shield.

The worst that can happen is you break the motor and have to replace with a new one. Which is where you are at now.

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#4

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/28/2016 10:54 AM

its a 50 dollar motor......I'd scrap it

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#5

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/28/2016 11:38 AM

I'm with ignator.. But, for some reason I can't give a good answer through the mobile? I used to be do service calls on this types of motor and more often than not it was the capacitor (under 10 bucks. And under 10 minutes. Or the centrifugal switch under 30/30 respectively. There is a lot to be learned by measuring the resistance of the windings as well. You would have to play with the 4 wires and do some measurements or do a little more research to figure out which colors are which windings? It's normal to have a couple dozen homes on each, but if its way under our way over you might have a bigger problem. Good luck.

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#6

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/28/2016 11:52 AM

Sounds like the bearings are going bad....I would get somebody that was qualified, to check it out...

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#7

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/28/2016 1:29 PM

My 1 1/2 HP pool pump did that. (60 Hz) It was the starting cap. It was somewhere around $35-50 dollars.

Capacitors 101 - iFixit

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#8

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/28/2016 2:55 PM

If it starts after you spin it by hand, it's the centrifugal switch. The switch is stuck closed (welded or gummed up) and leaves the starting cap shorted out of the circuit but once it begins moving by hand, it keeps moving in that direction. If it were a bad cap, it would never start. Usually the centrifugal switch is on the non-drive end of the motor, under the end bell. It's not that hard to remove the end bell and take a look. If it's just gummed up with crud, use some electrical spray cleaner (POWER REMOVED!!!) and free it up manually. If the contacts appear welded you can try to pry them apart and file them a little to see if that makes it run, but even if it does, replace them ASAP because once they have welded like that, it's going to happen again sooner next time because you have lost contact material. But you might be able to keep using it until the replacement arrives.

FINDING a replacement centrifugal switch for a Chinese junk motor might be a bit of a challenge however.

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/28/2016 3:03 PM

Normally, I would never dispute you, except my personal experience says otherwise.

But, my pool pump motor hummed, but started/ran fine when spun.

I replaced the cap over a year ago, no problems since.

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#13
In reply to #8

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/28/2016 9:18 PM

I have to disagree there.

A simple cap start induction run motor can be manually spun to get it going if the cap, the start winding, or the centrifugal switch are faulty. In any of the above, the motor will run in the direction in which it is manually turned.

I may be corrected here, but I am not aware of any motor where the centrifugal/start switch shorts the cap out, but instead it switches it in and out of the circuit as required. If the switch were stuck closed, then the motor would start as normal but would rapidly overheat, and the start cap - which is not designed for constant energisation - would soon fail, hopefully before the start winding failed.

The start switch in a simple cap start motor connects both the start cap and the start winding across the run winding until sufficient speed has been attained, and then disconnects them, they can be manually spun up in either direction if the start circuit is incapacitated (pun intended).

The start switch in a cap start/run motor adds the start cap in parallel to the run cap for added starting torque. In this case - if the start circuit is not operative - then the motor will normally still start with reduced torque, but may not if the load is significant and may start if manually assisted, but it cannot be manually spun in the wrong direction. This may be the case here.

I'm with others here in first suspect being the start cap, they normally fail open but can short out, a simple test with an ohmmeter will determine either scenario, and test if it is still OK, but be sure to ensure it is fully discharged before you touch any wires just in case it is in fact OK.

If it is shorted, the meter will show constant zero resistance - or close to it.

If it is open, it will show constant infinite or very high resistance.

If it is OK it will first show zero resistance and then go to infinity once it has charged to the meter's battery voltage.

If your meter has a cap check facility, then use that.

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/28/2016 9:24 PM
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#15
In reply to #13

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/28/2016 10:18 PM

I would argue that you need a capacitor tester to properly test a capacitor...A multi tester that has a capacitor test setting will work to measure the capacitance of the capacitor in question...but without that, it falls short in some cases....

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#17
In reply to #15

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/28/2016 10:45 PM

I agree....You will note my last sentence suggests the use of such. The ohmmeter will test for open or short and will indicate if the cap is in fact accepting and holding a charge. If it does that then, while you can't be sure of the true capacitance, it is probably not the cap at fault.

Many caps have a weakened end plate - generally an X cut into the plate - designed to bulge and pop to indicate if it has gone bad, it may be worth looking at that as well.

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#20
In reply to #8

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/29/2016 12:37 AM

I certainly agree with removing power...Before trying to even open the motor.

With regards the start capacitor, the machine will not start from the stationary position without hearing a growling noise, but it will run if manually started. I repaired a roof mounted evaporative cooler at my son in law's house, it had completely exploded the start cap. Replaced the cap. and all looked good, it was a windy day and the motor was spinning with the wind so no need for the start winding, via, cap to be used... days later a call from said in law, not working....redid the wiring which I had mucked up and all good.

Start cap would be my top bet.

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#10

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/28/2016 6:12 PM

Generally speaking when the capacitor fails, it's usually a sign that the bearings are going bad, or in some cases can be oiled depending on what type of bearings you have, but in any case they may have been damaged and this is just a temporary fix... It's usually a sign that the motor has been running under stress...A good way to tell is to get the motor running and let it heat up to operating temperature, and check amp draw under load, then monitor temperature....after 20 min you should be able to hold your hand on the motor casing, if it's too hot to do that(~170°+ F), you have a problem.....

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#11
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Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/28/2016 7:37 PM

This must be my day to take issue with experts.

In a former life, my company used hundreds of Baldor, US Motors, Leeson, and other's motors.

Baldors always ran hotter to the touch. On a visit, I challenged one of their engineers to explain this.

He said it was because they engineered their motors to transfer the heat to the outside of the case.

Their failure rate was no worse that the others, so maybe he was right. These were all TEFC washdown motors.

Again, my pool pump motor is still running strong today.

Jus sayin'.

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#12
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Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/28/2016 8:05 PM

Well it sounds to me like the motor is going off on internal overload...also the noise it's making sounds like the bearings are seizing....You can only heat a motor up to overload so many times before the oil cooks out of the bearings....Now it's true that a start mechanism can fail suddenly and be noticed by the user quickly....in this case repairing the mechanism and perhaps replacing a weak start capacitor may do the job...I'm just saying there's a possibility that the bearings are going bad and buying a new capacitor may not fix the situation....Without being able to check the motor out firsthand we are all just speculating....

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#16

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/28/2016 10:40 PM

the 240V 2hp Chinese motor on my mill failed after only a year or so. I replaced it with a standard 3/4hp 120V blower motor I had on hand (with a sleeve to compensate for the smaller shaft). I've had no problems in the quite a few years since.

That's a pretty small lathe, with only a 1/2 Hp motor. It should be very easy to replace.

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#18

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/28/2016 11:26 PM

If volts x Amps = Watts then you have 240V x 4.2 Amps = 1008 Watts.

About 1 & 1/3 HP.

That just put your replacement cost up. Sorry about that.

BAB.

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#19
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Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/29/2016 12:32 AM

Good point! I didn't think to check the math!

I'll bet he meant to write 1-1/2hp...

On the other hand, I replaced the (supposedly 2hp) motor with a 3/4hp motor on my mill, and have never noticed any slowing of the motor due to load, and have had zero problems since. If it were a production machine, the reduced power might be a problem, but I'm fairly sure this is a home machine, where power is much less important. In fact, Since I'm usually working alone in my shop, I consider the lower power motor desirable in terms of safety.

The one thing that could be a problem is wiring the power/reversing switch to the motor. It would require someone who understands that particular type of motor to wire it correctly, and it could be tricky if the replacement motor uses a different wiring arrangement from the original.

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#21
In reply to #18

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/29/2016 12:48 AM

You need to also take into account power factor and efficiency to arrive at the correct figures, and both of those can be very low with some motors.

Here is a chart with relative hp vs current figures. You will see that 1/2 hp comes in pretty close to the numbers provided by the OP.

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#24
In reply to #21

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/29/2016 6:55 AM

That's a dandy little chart. I'm going to hang on to that. Thanks for posting ;-)

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#26
In reply to #24

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/29/2016 11:00 AM

Same here. Thanks.

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#27
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Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/29/2016 11:26 AM

Same here, and I can verify that the values shown are indeed in agreement with those I've measured recently on fully loaded 3Ø motors in the 5-50hp range.

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#30
In reply to #21

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/29/2016 5:03 PM

Thanks for the chart. It is a nice bridge between theory and practical.

BAB

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#22

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/29/2016 5:02 AM

Another possibility here is the reversing switch. Many of these reversing switches relocate the same contacts to change the circuit configuration, and if one of those contacts is faulty it could well cause the symptoms that you mention.

If it is failing to connect the start circuit in one position, then the motor will not self start but may be manually spun to get it rotating on just the run winding.

If it is then failing to connect the run winding in the other position, the motor will again fail to self start, and will be difficult to start manually on just the start winding due to the higher resistance of that winding plus the added impedance of the start capacitor.

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#31
In reply to #22

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/29/2016 5:57 PM

Yes, that is what I found. After pulling the motor apart and tracing the internal wiring I realised that it was in the switch that the problem lay. I found the cap cut out switch to be working, the bearings running smoothly and no problem with the capacitor. This was unmarked but read 40 micro farads on my LCR meter. By making up a switch board to test the motor I was able to get it to work in both directions without trouble. My problem now is to reconfigure a new reversing switch or see if the old one is still viable. Thank you.

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#33
In reply to #31

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/29/2016 8:15 PM

Good that you have found it.

Some motors have similar start and run winding characteristics - altered only by the capacitor in the circuit - and these can be reversed with a simple single pole double throw (SPDT) switch ie C/O switch (with centre off if required), but you would need access to the 4 winding connections. See image #1

If that is not practical, then a DPDT switch or relay and SPST switch can be used, you would need a separate on/off switch. See image #2

Image #1

Image #2

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#23

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/29/2016 5:34 AM

If it is like my chinese lathe there is a complicated switch wrapped around the shaft that you use to select forward or reverse. The person i bought my lathe from hadn't cleaned off the heavy grease and the shaft pushed the guts out of the switch. It is made of many small plastic bits and some of them were broken. I repaired it and since then i make sure that the shaft is well lubricated. As it should be ;-)

switch position.

Depending on what has happened inside this switch it could cause the symptoms you describe. My start cap was knackered but it still wound up to speed eventually. Took both caps to a motor rewind place and they sold me 2 new ones. Worked good for while then not. My centrifugal switch was burnt so i filed it clean, working now. There are also transformers in the back. I don't remember what for but i know i replaced one. It may have been for the shaft switch.

Jim

P.S. my preview doesn't show my pic of the switch position.

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#25

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/29/2016 8:07 AM

I'm with AP #1. Unless you want to learn something by trying to repair the motor yourself, a new motor is the answer - just take it or the name plate to your local electrical supply house.

If you want to learn, by all means, try the possible remedies mentioned all through this thread, but I think you will find that buying all the parts suggested will be more costly than a new motor. These days,,, fractional motors are built as "throw aways".

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#28

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/29/2016 3:58 PM

Sounds like a dud capacitor but could be or bad/loose contacts anywhere, on the starter/reversing switch, centrifugal switch, and/or or broken wires, connections/joints/terminals, etc.

Intermittent faults are most difficult to find and fix. So eliminate the easy things first.

Check and tighten all joints and clean all external contacts first. Then try it. It will start.

If not, but runs both directions when manually spun, the start cap or centrifugal switch is suspect.

Only take the motor apart to check the centrifugal switch if the cap is dud.

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#29

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/29/2016 4:24 PM

After reading the motor was made in China, my response would be to scrap it and buy a good U.S. made motor. I would go on E-bay and find a good used motor; Baldor, U.S. motors, Leeson, etc. Another option would be to buy a 3 phase motor and a VFD.

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#32

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/29/2016 6:21 PM

Thank you everyone. I have read all the replies and got some advice. I pulled the motor down and found no mechanical problems with it. There were no burn marks on the field coils and the cap looked good. There were no markings on it but it tested 40 micro farads on my meter (LCR). The motor was definitely only a half horse power so from my (by now fallible) memory this value was acceptable. I took the opportunity to trace the wiring and reassembled the motor. By rigging up a switch board I was able to get the motor to start in both directions. My problem now is to revamp the old rotary switch or try to find a replacement. Anyway, thank you all for your advice and comments. They were a great help.

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#34
In reply to #32

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/30/2016 10:10 AM

Looks like You might be done here but, If you have not found a switch yet You could check out Smithy which is also now Detroit Machine Tools, They can advise if a 1200 Pushbutton switch will work for You. I think mine cost about $40. last year. Good Luck

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#35
In reply to #32

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/30/2016 2:26 PM

Check with surpluscenter.com for switches. They have a 3-position rotary switch with 25 amp contacts for $2.99 and many others.

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#36
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Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/31/2016 6:30 AM

I forgot all about Burden's Surplus Center. They have some great deals.

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#37
In reply to #32

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/31/2016 6:56 AM

Again, thank you everyone. I have decided to build a complete new switch box for it using electronic relays. It is more complicated perhaps but if it breaks down in the future its not far to return it to the manufacturer. I hold with the saying "were the engineers of a thousand years and we'll do the job right well" so I don't expect it to breakdown. I will build a couple safety features into the control box while I am about it. I mean, how often have you seen a chuck key fly across the room, or someone turning the lathe saddle too far and catching the chuck and not having a big red button to push. Yes and Yes but many years ago. Do you get smarter as you age or just get more cunning. Oh well, Problem solved cheaply enough and again thanks all.

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#38
In reply to #37

Re: A Scrap It or Fix It Conundrum

03/31/2016 9:07 AM

Did Somebody say "Big Red Button"? Picture of my Knee activated E-Stop just in case, & my spare for machine and just another Big Red Button. That machine switch does has For & Rev built in With Yellow safety cover and it auto shuts off if power is interrupted .

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