Do We Engineers See the World Differently?

Unfortunately free enterprise is being regulated out of existence, leaving us with (a) socialism, (b) fascism, or (c) Donald Trump.

It's my opinion that Donald Trump is not the choice, but instead as the De facto product of (a) & (b). ^{mostly (a)}

Are you saying that Trump is a sociology-fascist? Just for clarification....

Never said that,... I only said he's a product of the current political situation.

As far as my opinion of putting a label on him, I can't, too much of a moving target.

That was good. You got the words Fascism, Socialism and Donald Trump in the same sentence! Ha ha!

Seriously, your point it accurate and well taken. We see a lot of gentrification all over Los Angeles. It's good for the city and it does bring opportunity to the existing residents. The increased business gives them additional opportunities and if they own property, the increase in value is a windfall to them.

Your "free-enterprise" is Capitalism at its best!

I don't agree. The cities are becoming very mixed right now. In downtown LA, you see people walking dogs, jogging or walking with their babies, yet on the same street, you see homeless sleeping on the sidewalks or in alleys. You can't compare the rest of the US to Chicago. The Chicago police to a good job keeping the homeless out of the "nice" areas. And remember that a lot of wealthy people live in the city: The Gold Coast, Lincoln Park, River North, etc. Ditto for cities like San Francisco, New York, etc.

I think you're off base regarding the economies of the poorer areas. The reason why businesses leave is because the cost of doing business is too high. We have a 7-11 in our town and I have never heard of it getting robbed. I know that the 7-11's in bad areas always get robbed. I also believe that the 7-11's in lower income areas sell more goods than the one near my house. In poorer areas, the sales are better, yet the crime is higher. If the crime is too high, the stores close. Then the truly trashy stores come in.

Here in CA, the lower income schools get more money than the higher income schools. It's true. The state gives each school a set amount for each day a child is in attendance (when attendance is taken). If the student is considered low income, the school gets extra money. The schools also get more money bus services for low income students. And don't forget the extra money to feed the kids. Local districts can choose to vote in extra property taxes to pay for their school district. For instance, we have a local bond which comes out of our property tax. The bond pays for improvements to the schools in our district.

I know that IL is much different. I was shocked to find out that the Glenbrook School District budget is around 90% derived from local property taxes. Then I read about the graduation rate at the two high schools. The brochure said that 98% of the kids went to college. They are ranked #2 in the state.

Compare that to where I live now. The Hart High School District ranks 193rd in the state, even though the household income is very close to Glenbrook. 22% of the kids at Glenbrook get a free lunch compared to 25% at Hart. So why the big difference? 2nd in state vs 193rd?

Hey, when did I say that I don't agree that some things need to be Socialist. I have a feeling you're using the wrong term, but if not, then yes, I agree that some of our economy has to be Socialist and some has to be Capitalist.

Socialism is an economic term, yet people think it's a method of governing. Socialism just means that the government owns things or makes things. The school districts are owned by the government, the roads, the police department, etc. The opposite of Socialism is Capitalism. The government owns nothing in a 100% Capitalistic system. So everything is privately owned. As you can see, neither a 100% Socialist or 100% Capitalist system works. A mix definitely does.

Fascism is a dictator who forcibly gets people to align with his beliefs and does away with anyone who opposes him. Hitler is a good example. His so called Ghettos were race based and had to do with hatred of those people.

I have a feeling you're for a more Communist form of government, where people are given the same opportunities, services and homes. It doesn't matter if they come from different economic classes, they're all treated equal.

I believe that we should pay taxes and those taxes go toward the needs of the country as a whole. Education (K-12), State Colleges, Dept of Transportation, SEC, FDIC, our military, etc. I also believe that we should be responsible for ourselves, which means that we live within our means. If we are capable of working, but we choose not to, then we pay the price. If we work extra hard or we're very innovative, then we deserve to reap the rewards. I prefer having a society where I can choose to buy a house in an area that is far away from the riff-raff and my taxes pay for a more protective police force or better schools.

I also don't want to live too close to people who are going to rob me, because I have possessions they covet. I want the police to be tough on them - if they don't belong in my neighborhood, I don't want them here. Just like they don't want me in their neighborhood and quite frankly, I don't have any desire to go there.

I also don't mind my taxes to be used for helping people who can't help themselves. If it helps people who are mentally handicapped or physically handicapped, that's a good purpose. Or for seniors who need help. Or for the kids. But when able bodied people want to be lazy or sit at home doing drugs ... that's where I don't want my tax dollars going. So if you call that Fascism, you're definition is wrong.

"Anarchy is chaos."

All Chaos is Anarchy, not all Anarchy is Chaos.

Anarchy is "Do as you wish," although it quickly gets expanded to "Do as you wish, but if you hurt others, expect those hurt, or their friends, to hurt you back," which gets shortened to The One Rule; "As long as you don't hurt others, do as you wish."

Chaos is "Take what you can," it is not a form of government, or of society, it is the state of 'being in a riot.'

A group of friends hanging out together is 'anarchy,' there are no 'rulers' or 'leaders,' and there are no 'bylaws' the group adheres to, they are all there because they wish to be there, and they do what they do because they want to do it. Anarchy works better in smaller samples, because everyone can see that they are being treated fairly and/or equally by their peers.

Or, if you prefer your Aesops delivered via movie quotes: (from V for Vendetta, via Wikiquote)

"Evey: All this riot and uproar, V... is this Anarchy? Is this the Land of Do-As-You-Please?

V: No. This is only the land of take-what-you-want. Anarchy means "without leaders", not "without order". With anarchy comes an age of ordnung, of true order, which is to say voluntary order... this age of ordung will begin when the mad and incoherent cycle of verwirrung that these bulletins reveal has run its course... This is not anarchy, Eve. This is chaos."

I reserve the right to reject such arguments on a strictly intellectual level (or lack thereof by the proponents of it). Basically, all anarchists can go straight to hell for all I care.

It's refreshing to see that someone understands the sublety of the term Fascist when comparing totalitarian systems.

Wait one darn minute buddy! Are you saying that we really did land on the moon????

Not only that, I think there could be a secret base up there, USAF does not want you or me to know about. I don't think the base could actually work there because lunar dust just is horrible stuff (similar to volcanic ash, only more jagged edged, and very clingy). Sort of like a girlfriend I once had.

The lunar dust problem is a really serious issue in regards to having a permanent base on the surface. It gets into everything, ruins mechanical joints. Wears down bearings. Gets into lungs (where it could cause real havoc).

Any base up there would have to have a fleet of Roomba robots picking up this dust at all times, only they would have to get it all, since stirring it up in the air is a really, really bad idea.

I am not even sure lunar dust will make good concrete, although it might.

"I am not even sure lunar dust will make good concrete, although it might."

In theory, it should, since the particles are sharp ans angular, instead of round, they'll 'lock up' against each other, like bricks, instead of 'roll off the pile' like river stones.

That would also mean a good way to keep the dust under control: keep the passages to/from the airlocks misted, like a construction site that's breaking up concrete. Keep things wet, and the dust cannot drift into the air, it'll be held down by the water.

Then use the resulting sludge as a base for the next batch of Lunar concrete.

I hope you will be detecting the particles and not the people! Odd wording that.

Let me guess: It pulls air through a small pore size filter, and then some form of microscopic exam follows, possibly including auto-count of particles, and some sort of determination of angularity or other unique characteristic.

I suspect light scattering tests off the filter might work, although reflectance values that more or less show a grayish spectrum could be sufficient, I do not know.

Your second guess is closer, examinations using various wavelengths of light can give a lot of detail about the composition.

Is the composition of lunar dust that unique, or does it have to do more with surface irregularity? I suppose the material may actually have a spectrum consistent with low available oxygen during times when the material was hot, molten. Reduced iron, and other element oxidation states should result in a different spectrum alright.

I guess that's what they want to find out. I hope to know a bit more next week after I talk to our customer about this.

And Churchill obviously stole that quote from John Adams, one of the founding fathers of the good ol' USA!!!

Note that I did not state that it was a QUOTE from Churchill, but that it was ATTRIBUTED to him.

Much like people who think they are quoting Adam Savage when they say "I reject your reality and substitute my own." Adam himself was quoting an old (very bad) fantasy/sci-fi movie, The Dungeonmaster. The line was spoken by the hero, Paul Bradford.

Lunar dust? Guys, come on!!! The moon is made of cheese.

I just figures something out. Chicago is a great example of a city that shoved their poor into high rise cinder block apartments. Take a look at the history of those projects (Robert Taylor, Cabrini Greens, etc). Back in the 50's, they residents were mixed (racially) and had one thing in common; they needed help. Over the years, the "projects" became pretty much all black and the crime increased. I remember reading a story about an elderly woman who couldn't afford to pay the local thugs "elevator money", so she had to walk up the stairs with bags of groceries. Mind you, the stairwells have no windows (just openings in the cinder blocks) - very cold in the winter. Also, the low lifes throw their trash into the stair well, because they're too lazy to take it down to the dumpster. So picture a 70 year old woman trying to get to her apartment via a cold, stinky, trash strewn stair well.

And Chicago is known for shutting down the train/bus lines that go to the southside and westside. Or they send the junky beat up buses down there.

So I get what you're saying, but I don't think the problem is caused by conservatives - are there any in power in Chicago? It's the crooked politicians who steal the tax money and it never gets to where it's needed. Chicago has a huge sales tax rate and the property taxes are also high, yet the city is on the brink of bankruptcy again!

You're not talking about Socialism or Fascism. What you're talking about is corruption.

We had similar developments in the 60s. Since then, most have been demolished & replaced with lower level houses.

I watch Top Gear and I saw them put a Toyota Hi-Lux (Tacoma in the US) on top of a building (looked like a 1960's housing project building). Then they blew the charge and the hi-rise fell. They un-buried the truck and lo and behold, it started.

During the show, they drove it on the stage.

Prior to the building demolition, the guys tortured the truck. As I remember, they drove it into a tree, down a flight of stairs, banged it into objects, dropped a trailer on it, crashed through a building (through one side and out the other), let it get taken out to sea (flooded and buried in the sand), lit it on fire and hit by a wrecking ball.

The truck was an older diesel (not available in the US) and I think it was actually a pre-Tacoma model (the one with the long horizontal windows behind the front doors).

The highest mileage vehicle I ever appraised for a trade in was a 621,000 mile Tacoma Regular Cab 4X2 4 cylinder with a stick shift. The owner used it for three shifts a day, ran it all the time except for maintenance. The engine had never been taken apart! A little puff of blue when starting, but no Check Engine Light.

Dang, they were building those Toyotas TOUGH back then. What were they EXPECTING them to go through if they could take all that abuse? Did they expect these things to be stomped on by Godzilla⁽¹⁾?

Notes:

1. Remember, in the first Godzilla movie, the title character was an analogy for Nuclear War, so bringing him up here is a euphemism for a much more realistic scenario that Japan has faced. Twice. I am not going to mention the real thing in a joking comment, that would be culturally insensitive. Actually it would be as offensive as Trump walking onto a stage in blackface and doing a minstrel show in front of an NAACP meeting.
   

"Actually it would be as offensive as Trump walking onto a stage in blackface and doing a minstrel show in front of an NAACP meeting."

Don't give him ideas.

I am surprised at you two. The real offensive part is when some black performer puts on a "white face" and performs a minstrel show, when it would be much better to just be him/her self on stage.

How about Bill Cosby raping someone's daughter at the Playboy mansion, is that offensive?

Yes, all three are offensive:

Cosby raping someone: well ANYONE raping ANYONE is offensive, that's why it's a crime.

A black performer in 'whiteface' is offensive: why does he need to hide his true self in front of the audience? Why could they not simply had a mix of black and white performers to fill the parts, according to the cast of characters?

A white performer in 'blackface' is offensive, for two reasons: hiding his true self (as above for whiteface) -AND- harking back to the days when blacks were not ALLOWED to perform on stage, because they were not considered 'full people,' so a white performer would rub burnt cork on his face to 'look' black while still showing that he's still a white guy and allowed on stage, and would then act like a complete buffoon, as that is what the audience expected the 'not full people' to behave.

There's a lot of wrong in the world, and if we keep adding on with 'but what about...' then the strength of the argument gets diluted, as the 'solution' for a collection of problems becomes almost impossible, while tackling smaller groups of similar problems tends to lead to 'decent' solutions. The solutions may not be perfect, and they may interfere with other solutions, but it's a start, and things can be adjusted, refined, and improved to make the solutions better on their own, and fit better with other solutions.

I'm reminded of a saying I heard somewhere, "If every pork chop were perfect, there would be no hot dogs."

"If every pork chop were perfect, there would be no hot dogs."

I shudder to think about such a world. I much prefer hot dogs over pork chops.

Exactly, nothing and nobody in this universe is 'perfect⁽¹⁾,' so we need to accept the imperfections and try to find the good. We fix what we can, and try to improve things bit by bit. That's actually the beauty of Imperfection; it can never become Perfect, so it can keep being improved endlessly.

Notes:

1. Barring one example, but He got nailed to a tree for saying how nice it would be if we were all nice to each other, so He left us and went back home for a while.
   

He sent His son down here, so we could be forgiven for our sins.

Remember that our souls aren't saved by our acts. Our souls are saved by our belief. What comes naturally if we believe is that we have compassion for brothers and sisters. That we will do good deeds, because we know that they need it. And maybe we can help strengthen them, so they renew their faith and they are saved.

For years I didn't eat pork chops. I thought they were too dry and lacked flavor. A couple years ago, I picked up some nice pork chops from the grocery store. I put them on the bbq - I used the charcoal grill. When they were nearly done, I brushed on some good smoky bbq sauce. They came out delicious! My mouth is watering!

Back in Old Germany, they called these buffer zones Ghettos. You know the rest of the story. I don't think you really want this, and neither do I.

In South Africa it was done under a piece of legislation that I think was called the "New Areas Act".

This put those with limited sun tans on top of the heap, usually a hill top. This gave them nice views, also known as field of fire. The browns and coloureds were at the base of the hill and the blacks were anywhere that they had a permit.

If there was a disturbance the coloureds and browns were a buffer that gave a little more time to lock and load, man the barricades and wait for the cavalry.

BAB

Here is a very interesting statistic to back what I'm saying. Crime in Beverly Hills, CA is high. Hollywood an Mid-City is very close to Beverly Hills. http://www.areavibes.com/beverly+hills-ca/crime/

Look at the crime rate in Agoura Hills - a very nice area, but not as wealthy, but there are no ghetto's nearby. http://www.areavibes.com/agoura+hills-ca/livability/

No buffer for Beverly Hills, so crime is high. Lot's of buffers by Agoura Hills, so crime is low.

Thank you for mentioning the Toothbrush-Mustached Elephant⁽¹⁾ in the room.

It seems that a lot of people, in an effort to calm their fears of an encroaching Socialism⁽²⁾, are unconsciously⁽³⁾ trending towards its polar opposite, Fascism.

Notes:

1. Don't ask me where an elephant would put a mustache when it has no upper lip, it's just an analogy.
2. Whether it is or is not, their fear of it remains.
   
3. As a Hopeless Idealist, I give them the benefit of the doubt.
   

Socialism is economic - it means the government owns/produces things.

Fascism is a pretty nasty dictatorship that forces people to follow and kills them if they speak up against it.

Has nothing to do with polar opposites.

You are unlike most Americans⁽¹⁾, you can see that social programs and socialist (micro)economies are different from 'socialist government' (Which is really an Oligarchy: a small group, the 'party leaders' rule over the masses).

And they ARE opposites, in that Socialism is the government owning the land (and means of production) while, in theory, working for the benefit of the People, while Fascism is the People owning land (and production) while the government oppresses the people for the benefit of the State.

Notes:

1. Or, to be specific, most Americans that the GOP like to whip into a frenzy every election by inciting their fear of "Those Godless Commies."⁽²⁾
2. Due to the 'wonderful' primary education system in the USA, most kids grow up not knowing the difference between Communism, Socialism, and Fascism; all they know is that 'the Americans fought against Socialists, Communists, and Fascists, so all those must be bad.' Some even think that someone can be all three at once.
   

That's dribble, GOP candidates said the same thing about democrats in the 80's

Consider one other factor. People living in a project have no choice ... well, the only other choice is to be homeless. People living in a high density upscale area have a choice. Move to another complex, move to the suburbs and commute, etc.

I think the feeling of "being stuck" leads to a higher incidence of problems and crime.

The secrets aren't exclusive to the polygamist sects.

Neither is the favoritism.

I took a consulting job in Cedar City, UT for 6 months.

It was very obvious that Mormons are very clannish.

My barber came out and asked me if I was LSD.

An oddity that I discoverd was if you wanted entry into the only bar in town, you had to apply for membership, give references and wait two weeks for a decision. I wanted to wastch a NASCAR race the next day, so I just blew that off.

Didn't you mean to say LDS? If you are LSD, then we are all having visions.

No, it was LSD. The barber wasn't Mormon either.

"Hey, you Holden? Is Ben Holden here?"

I've found them to be tolerant to visitors (worst case) to being very friendly and hospitable. So much so that I considered retiring in some small town somewhere in Utah - it sure is a beautiful place. Then a few LDS (who grew up in Utah) friends told me that things are much different when you live there. They gave me an example: if the block was on fire, they would choose which house to save first. As a non LDS, my house would burn to the ground.

Then I heard other stories and I've since changed my mind. What you wrote matches what I was told. Except the part about the barber wanting a hit of acid - or wanting to know if you were on acid - or wanting to know if you were selling acid.

No, I'm sure the barber was a Mormon. The hair cuts were old school, nothing like modern barber shops.

Lather from a cup and a straight razor to trim ears and neck and then an oldfashioned back-of-hand vibrator treatment at the end.

I can't say I was ever treated badly, maybe because everyone know I only had a 6 month contract.

Cedar is nestled in the foothills, but at 5,000 feet. One of the guys who worked for me lived at 10,000 feet near the ski resort. While they had a WalMart and a great golf course, it was too far away from any big city for me.

This view is typical late fall/winter. Zion and Bryce canyons are less than 5 miles from here.

I've never been there - been close by though. One of my favorite places is Zion. We go once very 5 years or so. Most times we head up to Bryce from there - we take the back way heading east out of Zion, then north.

Springdale is the town at the entrance to Zion. My first time in Zion, we had a very pleasant experience. We were on the first day of our 2 week camping trip. We got into Zion and we decided that it was too late to set up camp, so we'd stay at a hotel in Springdale. Everything showed no vacancy or was closed. We came up to an older motel, the vacancy sign was on, so we tried to go in the lobby, but the door was locked. We called the number on the door and a lady answered. We asked about a room and she told us to go around the corner from the front door and we'll see a key box - mind you, this is outside. She asked which keys were there and she told me to grab room 6 and we could settle up the next morning. When we got to room 6, the door was unlocked. We went in, plopped down on the bed and we fell asleep. The next morning we settled the bill and headed out to the Bumbleberry cafe for a slice of Bumbleberry pie and breakfast/lunch.

This was the start of one of our great road trips. This was the first time either of us had been to Southern Utah - we fell in love with it!

"An oddity that I discoverd was if you wanted entry into the only bar in town, you had to apply for membership, give references and wait two weeks for a decision."

Well, since Mormons are supposed to abstain from alcohol, I guess that's to 'protect the congregation' from accidentally 'sinning.' They wanted to make sure you weren't Mormon, and if you were, they'd send your application to the pastor so he can work out your 'penance.'

Having lived in NYC until just recently, I tend to agree with you on your observation regarding the "snotty and cold" reputation of Gotham residents.

As long as things are proceeding normally (whatever that may be) city-dwellers basically keep to themselves, hence the "snotty and cold" reputation; but when things are bad, bad being anywhere from being lost to being homeless because of a catastrophic fire, most seem to come to your aid as needed, or as best they can.

Once a situation is stabilized, though, they revert to the alleged "snotty and cold", and everyone goes about his or her business.

No experience with "upstaters", so no opinion there.

Perhaps my bias is also due to the 'good news goes unreported' filter of the media.

I seldom hear of the quiet, sleepy little towns out in the 'back country' where everyone knows each other, and nobody cares that the Smiths are black, or that the Joneses don't join the rest of the town for Church on Sunday, instead driving to the next town on Friday so they can go to the synagauge on the Sabbath; they just see each other as neighbors and friends, and visitors as guests.

The stories I *DO* hear are from the 'bad apples,' the Wesboro Baptist Church group, or the Duggars (of '19 kids and counting'), or the little communities surrounding Salt Lake City, where the residents stay behind closed doors when a 'stranger' visits, and the Sherrif's car follows the visitor everywhere until they leave town, or the towns that still have cross burnings whenever a black family tries to move in.

I try to keep an open mind, and freely admit when I have erred, but I'm not perfect. There has only been one perfect person to walk on this planet, and he got nailed to a tree for all his good deeds.

Certainly, no good deed will go unpunished in this world.

I live in a small town - there are 630 or so houses and about 2,300 of us. Household income ranges from below poverty to mid six figure. We're secluded - 2 miles to get in from the only two ways in or out. We love it here and at times it feels like we're living in the 70's or 80's. Kids riding bikes or walking to the park or the local store. Color doesn't mean anything here (amazing this is the case so close to LA). Neighbors being neighborly. Kids being kids. No tract houses here and they're all very diverse. The oldest were built in the 20's to 40's. A few in the 50's, then the building stopped and didn't start again until the 80's. More in the 90's and finally a scattering in the 2000's to 10's. Homes from 300 sq feet to 4500. No cell signal here ... well, maybe you can pick up a faint signal here or there, but it's dead in most of the town. We have a local sheriff in town. A medical clinic, pre-school and our wonderful park. People waive and say hi. We walk places and talk to each other. We also have some of the best programs from the residents - all residents and most are not based on income!

Is it a great place to live? You bet! Is our sleepy little town unique? I haven't found anything like it. Are there others that are just a friendly? I don't know. Are there jerks in this town? Sure, I think every town has a few. Crime? Yes, we do have crime here, but it's the lowest in the valley.

We do have a developer who wants to build almost 40% more houses here - tract houses. If he get's the permit, it will change our community - guaranteed!

What is the name of this place? Paradise? Hope it stays as is.

Thanks. We feel blessed to have found it.

"...what good does that do?"

Don't you know that everybody's got to be equal?

"everybody's got to be equal"

Equal to what? 1 = their own God given potential, or 0 = state controlled "equality" where no one is worth much, and the whole is not much better.

1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+... = A Large number possibly

0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+... = 0 every stinking time

I got upset and went into my 'Safe Spot'..... and someone was already there.

This crap of self esteem has been going on for a long time. I was in 4H horse project in the 60's and 70's. Went to and participated in a number of shows, cant recall how old I was, I'd say around 10 years old, one horse show they gave the junior participants green partiapatio ribbons. A few events I placed in the the top 4 with 1-2 blues, but I saw they were handing out ribbons to everyone.

I did not know what they meant I didn't ask what they were, until I received one in an event I didn't place.

When they explained, at first I was confused, then realizing, I was embarressed and I drop it in the garage. A big stink happened, and one of the organizers of this event questioned me about it, (more like grilled me). Even as a kid, it was hard for me the explained, but what came out of me was that, I didn't deserve a ribbon because I didn't work with my horse, which was true.... Little league baseball got in the way.

I could not beleive it, my dad over heard the pickle this organizer was given and when he heard me say that. He jumped in, defended me. (Kinda)...

He to,d the organizer, There was times were I felt I should have won, I worked hard, I felt I and the horse proformed well and didn't place high enough on the final judging, devastated me to tears. (I was 9 remember)

And he said something to the organizer that really rang true,... And that was 4H is set up for kids to learn how to get through diversity in life, and that includes losing.

They never had participation ribbons again...

As far as I know, but a few generations of 4H later, who knows.

Btw, on our way home,... Dad told me he over heard me tell the organizer why I didn't deserve a ribbon. That he was very happy about.

Out of the mouth of babes....come pearls of truth and wisdom beyond their years.

Not everyone wins or deserves the brass ring every time. I am happy to stand with you rejoicing in that fact. Glad you learned the value of truth that young.

Yes, at the time, I also felt, that I didn't deserve the Blue ribbon... because It didn't practice to a high degree. But both myself and the horse (depending if judging was based on Horsemanship or Showmanship) proformed perfectly with little work.

It was later in life that I realized and learned about muscle and reflex memory and that it was indeed earned.

I loved 4H it did teach me a lot, and I didn't even know it at the time.

Actually I had to switch the computers.... I meant to say... At times when I did receive a blue ribbon and felt I didn't deserve it.

Sounds like you have a great dad! My dad never gave me any BS about how great a job I did, unless I really did a great job.

I think it's good to acknowledge when a kid tries hard and doesn't succeed. Something like, "I'm proud of how hard you tried, buddy! Don't worry, you'll get 'em next time!"

How many times have you heard parents say something like "We're not coming back next year, it's rigged" or "The judges are just picking on you and they're jealous of you" Great way to raise kids!!!

Actually he was hard on me, that growing up made me think a good job done was expected and didn't need re-enforcement. Which served me well later. I think he enjoyed it and complimented me, because it reflected his thoughts so much.

All in all, he was a good dad. Growing up, I thought we were rich, when I was a senior in HS, I realize we weren't, when I was 25 years old, looking back with more maturity and prospective... I was right the first time.

I was talking to a client last night about growing up. He's almost one generation older than I am. He told me that growing up in the 50's was the best. I grew up in the 70's and I enjoyed it. I see kids growing up in this era and to me it's really sad. No playing football like boys do. Or walking to the local park to play some basketball. Or getting the neighborhood kids together and playing baseball in the street! My client said he'd leave his house after a quick breakfast and hang out with the neighborhood kids all day, then come home for dinner. Or maybe he and his buddies would go to his house and his mom would make lunch for the group. We did the same in the 70's - they were good times.

The things I do remember was that we always wanted to have something and we NEVER got most of the things we wanted. We could have fun picking up miscellaneous things from the garage, or we'd make a ramp and jump things with our bikes. Summers lasted forever!

My dad wasn't too free with his compliments, but all dad's were like that. I remember how I always felt like I disappointed my dad in some way. His generation thought it was important to make us not only tough, but also that "good enough" didn't cut it. I don't know if that made our generation into perfectionists. I know that I have it in me.

Well, either way, I'm very happy that I was pushed and I love the fact that I have a tenacity inside me - some call it being stubborn, but I think it's a drive to succeed.

Just more of the damage the public schools are doing to our future, more of the political correctness that has ripped the fabric of what once was an understandable society to shreds. It is far long overdue that someone stand up, call it what it is, call our enemies what they are, and begin to reestablish some rules, governance of laws, and encourage all to participate, but when the folks are found that do just about anything to come up with a "super team" where the kids are bigger and faster than the "normal" kids they are competing with, just pluck that team out into the new "super" league, where the competition is on an equal footing, and they have at least a chance of getting their butts kicked.

There used to be (and may still be) this thing of hiring a kid's father into a school district so the youngster can play ball on the local team, in order to improve the odds of getting them into the State playoffs. It didn't matter if the dad had skills or not.

That sort of thing needs to stop. But on the other hand, there is no point in lying to the kids and telling them they did great when they "sucked", and they know it. Sure, tell them they played to the best of the abilities they were taught combined with their physical ability - -"It's OK kiddo, you gave us your best effort". It is not OK to give them the ice cream cone whether they win or lose. Teach them to be hungry for a win. Teach them to compete. Everything in nature competes. Darwin taught competition. The Bible teaches a sort of competition (good versus evil). No matter what side of the fence you sit on there is competition. OK, you don't like competition, that is fine. Go sit down, and give your spot to someone who will compete.

Years ago, I heard someone talking about the downfall of our society and how being PC has contributed. He also said that we won't get out of our mess until we acknowledge that it's okay to call a spade a spade.

Somewhere in the last 30-40 years, it's no longer okay for kids to settle a disagreement or put someone in their place with a fight at the playground. I was in a few of them when I was a kid and I think it was a good thing. Some bruises, scrapes and a slightly damaged ego for the loser. The tattle tale kids would get theirs and they soon learned that it wasn't accepted. Nowdays, those little finks run free, because violence isn't proper!

I live in France and as you know the 3 words which are apparently the base of the society are: LIBERTY - EQUALITY - FRATERNITY.

All of them are not interpreted the right way -at least according to my humble opinion.

LIBERTY it cannot be total since the limit is the interference with the liberty of others. I cannot accept liberty for those people who agress policemen in the frame of demonstrations against or for some thing.

EQUALITY does not mean that we are all equal in our capabilities the only aspect should be that all are equal in front of a rule of conduit being a written or not written law. Every human is a fully unique person and only unhuman ideologies can state that all humans are interchangeable!

FRATERNITY I can accept and even support actions to help people who are for objective reasons unable to take care of themselves but I am totally against actions which lead to the support of people who only profit from the society and do not give anything in exchange. An advanced society must support the weak but bot allow other to profit from possibilities.

Unfortunately, as I wrote before, those simple and nice principles are interpretated the wrong way and used exactly against their original meanings.

So as you see same problem arose allover the world since those problems are not related to the country but to human nature.

May I add some thoughts about other subjects discussed in the frame of this thread.

I think that laws are written the wrong way as principle and are at the origin of many social troubles. Laws should not specify what you have to do but where are the limits within you are free to move. It is impossible to preview all possibilities thus when laws are directive it will be always possible to by-pass them.

The role of the state is to protect and defend the present and the future of the people living in the country. Protection does not mean to interfere with their lives. e have seen in the near past what in the name of protection has been done under dictatorships in at least 3 countries. From the social point of view the state must support talents without looking at their social origin but not trying to achieve it by reducing the level of requirements.

I give an "engineering" example. In a big number of individual capacity is distributed in a almost Gaussian way. If you set a test for a capability the number of individuals passing it will be related to the relation between the test and the mean value of the group. If the test is over the mean value then less 50% will pass if it is under over 50% will be accepted. What do you think about a passed proportion of over 85%?

This what politicians declare as success and I consider as failure and discredit of the exam.

If the bar was set at basic skills levels to pass from high school into the work place, then if 85% can pass that bar, I say good. People need work, and they need to eat.

LIBERTY - the freedom to make many choices in life, good or bad, and enjoy the benefits, and the responsibility for the negative outcomes (such as drinking, driving, and wrecking).

EQUALITY - Being born as innocent as lambs and to not be discriminated against by any government system that puts up a road block that excludes based on race, religion, gender, etc. Every child is a gift from God, coming with the responsibility to teach this child the narrow road of life, and that if they totally commit to some goal, you as parent (and the community) will be standing there with them when they cross the finish line. Run the race with pride.

FRATERNITY - I believe this to be based on Christian principles. Whoever stands against tyranny, terror, and dishonor is my brother (sister), because this love is what is greater in us. The fraternity is one for all and all for one. The fraternity is no man left behind. The fraternity is laying down your life to protect your brothers, standing, even alone in harm's way when no one stands alongside you at the moment. The Cavalry is on the way.

If the bar is at the bottom then 100 % could pass! Would it be better ?

If 100% have sufficient skills for what they are being trained to do, then yes.

If this is Army Ranger training, or for the French Foreign Legion special forces, British Commandos, Navy Seals (BUDS), or other training of the same ken, I would absolutely say no, not everyone who enters through the door will leave from the "completed, and passed" door, some will exit the entrance.

Very true!

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness!

All those terms are balanced between the the needs of the Individual and the needs of Society. By definition they cannot be absolute, but by being limited, they become much more fair.

LIBERTY - I have heard this best describes as "The freedom to swing my fist through the air stops right where your nose starts." In other words, one's freedoms end right at the point where they will harm others.

EQUALITY - As you said, this means that the laws are applied fairly. Just as my freedom to swing my fist stops where your nose starts, the reverse is also true, EVERYONE has the right to have their nose-space unimpeded by fists, and it does not matter whose fist or nose is involved: I cannot punch you, you cannot punch me, Charles De Galle cannot punch either of us, neither of us can punch him. If the sign says "No bathing in the fountain" then not even Napoleon can bathe in the fountain.

FRATERNITY - You said it best: We help those who cannot help themselves. We do not prey on the weak (that would be 'invading their nose-space with our fists,' already dealt with above), and we are not supposed to 'feign' weakness to get alms we do not really need. We also only help to the limits of our abilities, which means the middle-class members of society are not expected to give as much to the poor as the richer members do.

That quip about the middle class not needing to help as much as the rich, sounds like typical communist propaganda to me: "To each according to his need, from each according to his ability." Soon, no one has or has ability, all are reduced (equally) to the same level of misery, mediocrity.

This has nothing to do with fraternity. Fraternity implies being coherently struggling together to achieve the same goals, of which society seems to have less and less in common over the entire spectrum these days. There comes a breaking point where the "source" says "no more" to the "sink". Either pull together in the same direction, or get the hell off the train - that applies equally. A hell of a lot of people are not (intentionally) pulling their own weight.

By the way, your Liberty stops where you make a fist and point it in my general direction. At least my wife says that raising a fist is abuse, so I don't ever do that. The other end of the fist thing is where my Liberty begins to block your punch, and deliver a counter punch to stop you cold in your tracks. I do not have to wait until being struck to know when my Liberty is encroached upon.

So you say everyone needs to chip in 'equally,' The guy who makes $100 chips in $10, the guy who makes $10,000 chips in $10, the guy who makes $12 chips in $10, the guy who makes $8 hands over his $8 and an IOU for the $2 he does not have. Is that what you were saying?

What I was alluding to is similar to this: the guy who makes $100 chips in $10, the guy who makes $10,000 chips in $100, the guy who makes $12 chips in $1, he guy who makes $8 doesn't have to chip in anything, he's the guy who needs a hand getting back on his feet, he can start chipping in when he's making around $11-$12.

I'm keeping the numbers ridiculously small to make the math easier, but you get the point, even that example is biased towards the wealthy, since Mr. 10K gives 1%, while Mr. 100 gives 10%.

That is precisely what some conservative Republican candidates have put forth in a tax plan known as the "flat" tax - everyone pays the same damn percentage.

The fair tax is another one, and that one calls for elimination of the IRS, and any tax on wages. Most rich people don't earn wages, they make profits.

There is a world of difference. Pay taxes on money spent. That is a much fairer and better plan.

You two birds should have started a new thread ages ago with this topic. because now this thread is polluted .

Agreed.

Not necessarily. Going back to the question of "do we engineers see the world differently", it does shine some light on the subject.

But I'm using a candle, and it's windy.

Where is the fairness when the small business owner makes 20,000 and chips in 15,000?

Another question could be, does the business owner use us 15,000 of government resources? While the man making $100 uses only $10? If no, then why should someone who strives for success, pays a hefty price by risking his home to start his business and works 80-100 hours a week to keep his business going be required to pay so much more? You see, I worked a 50 hour a week job while going to grad school and helping run a small business (and also buying/owning my first home). Then after graduating, I worked 100+ hours a week running and growing my business. I'm not complaining, but I traded years of my life for success.

I'm not sure about the right way to say this, so I'm going to do my best. Overachieve = high income = pay more taxes (both $ and %). Risk it all opening a business = 20% chance of success, but if you succeed, you'll make good money = pay more taxes. Or, live like a regular guy = work for a company = make a reasonable living = pay normal taxes. Live like a regular guy = plenty of free time = have the guys over and hang out in my man cave (I don't have one yet). High taxes are a disincentive for entrepreneurship and financial over achievement.

Fraternity is brotherhood of man. It's much deeper than monetary assistance. An example: If a neighbor is doing something morally wrong, as a brother, I should have a talk with him and try to convince him to change his ways. We're all human and we all need help when we're being challenged. As humans, we're no where close to perfect, right? So we're bound to need help.

Years ago, a friend of mine saved my life. Not in the physical sense, but spiritually. It's been the best gift I've ever been given. Now it's my job to help others.

There's a short story you might want to read, by the title of Harrison Bergeron.

You'll see what a world of 'everybody being equal' leads too.

(Unless you simply forgot the emoticon to show you were being sarcastic. But even then, look up the story anyway, it's a good read.)

"An exceptionally good painter who is bad at math can be much more valuable to society than a good painter who is mediocre at math."

Not to mention much more valuable to a manager, since the math-poor painter can't find the problems with the managers math that gives the manager 80% of the 'gross' from the painting sale, while the painter's 20% is reduced further by all the expenses that cut into the 'net' profit, such as rent on the studio, the costs of the art supplies, and in-studio meals for the artist and manager...

Certain skills should be 'universal' to protect the weak from being preyed upon by the unscrupulous.

That, my friend, is why there are liberal-arts colleges, to teach people how to think, not what to think. There is a process, and some people have a really screwy idea of what that process is, or how to function in "normal" life.

I agree completely, everyone needs some savvy exactly (not savvy exacta, sorry) when it comes to making a living. I had one brother-in-law who was a genius artist photographer, who knew the technical side to the nth degree, and the art side to the nth degree, was an exceptional talent, trained at Art Center in L.A., but whom could not negotiate a contract worth toilet paper scraps. He hated to send invoices, and he hated to go in person to collect on a major account that was stalling him.

Bottom line: "All the nice business guys walked right over him."

If you think you are immune to this form of treatment, better wake up and smell the coffee burning.

I never claimed to be immune to anything, I understand my own limitations.

Back when I was in school, I was imagining what sort of Engineering Team I would assemble to be the 'superstars who could do anything.' It consisted of:

• An Electronics Engineer (myself)
• A Mechanical Engineer
• A Structural Engineer
• A Chemical Engineer
• An Accountant (to keep track of the money and budget)

People would crosstrain, of course. Nowadays, it would probably mean the Engineers would end up qualifying as Mechatronic Engineers, if that term really mean something and isn't just a buzzword. But early on, I understood that while i could run the formulas for exponential growth and decay, and that those were the same formulas for the 'time value of money,' once you put a $ on the numbers, I began to lose comprehension of the deeper meanings. So I knew I needed to have someone who COULD understand the deeper meanings to keep the team on financial track.

The whole 'Engineering Team' turned out to be a pipe dream. The 'good news' when I was graduating was that companies had stopped downsizing their Engineering departments, so the job market was 'flat;' no new jobs, but there was no increasing competition by experienced Engineers for the few entry-level positions that WERE around.

But the painter will have a friend who does understand business. Yes, there are crooked people who will take advantage of others, but a good businessman will not. I guess I'm lucky, because the people I deal with on a personal and professional basis are honest and they wouldn't cheat their client.

I live by the belief that if your heart is pure and your mind is clean, then good people will be attracted to you. And, in the instance that someone tries to cheat me, I see it as a lesson I need to learn. By no means do I have a completely pure heart or clean mind, I just try my best.

By the way, I absolutely stink at a lot of things. When I was younger, I tried to become better at those things. I now realize it was a waste of time and when I learned to focus on the task at hand, my success went up exponentially.

Here's another good one. (Man, I'm burning through my "A" material this morning.)

A man is walking along in a park when he hears a shot from above. He looks up and sees another man in a balloon. "I need help," the man in the balloon calls out, "Can you tell me where I am."

"Certainly," replies the man on the ground, "You are aproximately thirty feet in the air, in a wicker basket suspended under a hot-air balloon that is slowly drifting to the South-West."

"You must be an Engineer," say the man in the balloon.

"Yes I am," says the recently-identified Engineer, "How did you know?"

"I am trying to get to a meeting I am already late for, and your 'help' was at the same time incredibly detailed and completely useless."

"You must be a manager," says the Engineer.

"You're correct," replies the newly-identified Manager, "How did you know?"

"You have no idea where you are or where you are going, you have made promises that are impossible to keep, you have risen to your current position not by your skills but by the use of hot air, and finally, even though you are in the exact same situation you were in before we spoke, somehow this is now all my fault."

That is one of my favorites!

"Do we engineers see the world differently?"

Actually, I think that engineers 'see' the world. And physicists.

Non engineers, i.e. those without engineering aptitude, do not 'see' the world, per se - other than as just so many black boxes. Bit like some people can read & learn a map - others can only remember a route - 'turn left at the PO, go 150m, right at the 7 - 11, look for the yellow bank,...........'

Not sure how to explain mathematicians, who can see stuff that's not there - sorry Denise ;-)

yes, but without mathematicians speaking these concepts into existence as if they were seen, we could not see now what we were blind to back then.

"Not sure how to explain mathematicians, who can see stuff that's not there - sorry Denise ;-)"

Scientists believe that the reality is an approximation of their equations.

Engineers believe their equations are an approximation of reality.

Mathematicians are unable to make the connection.

There's a joke about those three and a burning trash can in a hotel, but I don't remember it clearly enough to retell.

An engineer is working at his desk in his office. His cigarette falls off the desk into the wastebasket, causing the papers within to burst into flames. The engineer looks around, sees a fire extinguisher, grabs it, puts out the flames, and goes back to work.

A physicist is working at his desk in another office and the same thing happens. He looks at the fire, looks at the fire extinguisher, and thinks "Fire requires fuel plus oxygen plus heat. The fire extinguisher will remove both the oxygen and the heat in the wastebasket. Ergo, no fire." He grabs the extinguisher, puts out the flames, and goes back to work.

A mathematician is working at his desk in another office and the same thing happens. He looks at the fire, looks at the fire extinguisher, and thinks for a minute, says "Ah! A solution exists!" and goes back to work.

http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~riesbeck/mathphyseng.html

about 10 years ago, I was hired as a contractor to solve a problem in a OEM. I was working late, no one was in the building.

They had the network server right across the isle from my cubicle, right in the open.

About 8:00PM, I heard a Faint high pitch whine. Couldn't pin point where it was coming from. And looked across the isle, and just as I did, a large pop occurred, and flames 2-3 feet came out from behind the server itself. There were open shelves of files right above the server.

I got up, and pulled the power cord out of the power box, and reached for the fire extinguisher the was about 10 feet away. But the flames died down and went out when the power was removed.

Seemed everything was contained and was alright, in stead of calling 911, I called the owner and left a message.

I stayed there for 3+ more hours to finish the work that I had.