Best Ways to Solve Freezer Floor Heaving Problem

Agree with BSR. Is there a low water table?

How big is the stab? length/width? how much of it is freezer space?

Draining the water would be much better than having heated earth beneath the freezer.

How to drain frozen water without heating it? Is this a seasonal issue I hope and not in the tropics.

Could you drill and probe the floor for wet spots then suck it out with a sump after you install the perimeter drain?

Check your downspouts. Is the rain water taken away properly?

underground leak in the main?

luck to ya

it's about 400 ft by 450 ft and all of them is cold storage. it's not in the tropic and yes a seasonal issue. yes the rain water is taken away properly. and no leak in the main, checked.

Being seasonal. and such a large floor.. Is it safe to assume the heaving is primarily at the perimeter?

If so? Could perimeter below grade heating be employed and effective?

There are a lot of heated sidewalks and roads and driveways... they can be are efficient

Pex installed in a trench vertically rather than horizontally with insulation on top would be worth considering. Every 300 feet or so it would need to re-enter the building and go though a hot water on demand unit to bring the temp back up.

as a bonus.. you wouldn't be heating the freezer

-frozen food for thought

Even if the water table is low, moisture will still migrate into the subfloor area and freeze into ice lenses that cause the floor to heave. Preventing this requires a vapor barrier, insulation, and heat.

There may be some horizontal drilling techniques that enable XLPE tubing to be pulled in after the fact.

You could install an insulating floor on to of the old one.

You could build a proper floor somewhere else and move the structure of the cold store onto it.

You could go Japanese and streamline your production to the extent that a cold store is no longer needed.

You could put a cold store on wheels out in the yard.

Then, without seeing it, what do I know?

what do you need to know? ask me. i think the best idea is to drill it horizontally and use some heating to melt the ice. and then natural/forced ventilation for the future. and going Japanese is also a great idea!

I think that Tornado Moosie and myself will sit around, drink beer and watch you excavate the old floor out, there will be no standing water, the French drain can be saved for a wet basement. the heater idea is just nuts, you'll pay on both ends of that deal......pay for heat, then pay to move it via refrigeration. Lay down a few mils of barrier NOT retarder. backfill, then Moossie can toss 3 steaks on the bbq and monitor you to make sure you don't end up with a mix that will fail his slump test, make your pour and we'll pack it up and leave!

i kind of agree with you on the french drain. but the insulation layer is used to prevent cool migrate down to heated area. i'm heating below the insulation and cooling above the insulation. like i said, digging the whole thing out is too expensive. multi-million. what do you think about the boring horizontally into the under-floor and using natural/forced ventilation?

I'd use this first

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJjEJyK4ia8

if the moisture is entering here your existing set-up is a failed set-up design/installation. if the moisture is fairly small you can install a 5+ mil layer. seal the edges and put another surface over that) this method is often used in finished basements with hardwood or carpet covering hard insulation over a concrete slab

forced ventilation for the future?

In a year-round warm location, that works. You would typically run a grid of PVC pipes under the floor, spaced maybe 3-4 feet apart. Pipe sizes would depend on how long and many the runs are.

In seasonal locations, you probably need liquid, such as propylene glycol and water. I know of an older facility that once used oil, but eventually it sprang a leak, entailing some expensive remediation.

yes. and i need to figure out a way to melt down the current glacier too.

Going Japanese is the best idea. "What you don't have, can't leak" - the late Dr. Trevor Kletz, internationally-renowned safety guru.

moisture barrier

For some years there was a guy named Jack Piho (iirc) at St. Onge, Ruff, & Associates in York, PA, who was a guru on ice lenses and their prevention/remediation. You might be able to find some online articles.

Not the same guy!

I have to agree with a linear french drain around the perimeter of the building 1 meter deep with vapor proof lining on the building side and bottom...

Ice does not drain via French drains.

i wish it did. ice is not that romantic!

this might helphttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ypy2S8QOLa0 I'd add a 5-6 mil poly as well

Well you would have to let the building heat up and run dehumidifiers until the moisture was evaporated to an acceptable level...the french drains are to eliminate further ingress of moisture...

https://www.sunbeltrentals.com/services/climate-control/dehumidification/refrigerant-dehumidifiers/movincool-classic-60/

Maybe you could just evaporate the ice away....

http://www.everything-ice.com/dehumidification/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimation_(phase_transition)

If you live in an area where they employ hydraulic fracturing to extract oil and gas, maybe an earthquake will solve your problems for you.

Funny to see this post.

Again a typical purchasers - salesman discussion: How can we save on the budget?

Splitting up the project? Organise everything yourself?

At least you can overcome the refrigerated room installers high cost for installing a correct floor.

Hey, with that layer of insulation we don't need the heating cables.

There are some solutions:

• if you can drill underneath you can install heating cables/tubes and start thawing the ice.
• You can install a heating cable in/on the slab that forms the actual floor, put a PUR layer over it and a new concrete slab. This will heighten the actual floor at least 15cm, if not more.
• If the actual floor is damaged already, dismantle the room, take out the broken floor and build it up as it should be.

don't expect a "Thank You. " the nanosecond he thought he got something for nothing he split

Not to worry . . . . he'll be back.

I'm not an expert on ice or concrete, but offer the following.

If it's seasonal, then there are times when the moisture is not frozen??

You indicate that it's only the perimeter that's affected.

What if you drilled in tubes as others have suggested, but leave them openended and then force in "dried air", allowing that to come back to the building perimeter through the under slab levelling material and creating a dry equilibrium in the under slab material. (Most slabs would have crusher dust/grit of some sort below the membrane that would easily enable air flow.)

Just thinking that by keeping that area dry,there would never be heaving from frozen water. With the refrigeration plant that you already have inplace, making dry compressed air is relatively simple.

Would suggest a slight expansion on this- Drill as suggested, but instead of pushing the air have every 2nd tube being a vapour extraction hooked up to a vacuum pump. Heat could be supplied by warm air tubes or PEX type piping as prior suggestion.

Frost heave is only a problem if the ground water repeatedly freezes and thaws. The first thaw expands the soil creating cavities for more water to enter. The extra water expands the soil more and you have a vicious cycle.

You have two options.

Option 1 Prevent the ground water from freezing in the first place. Too late for that and remedial work over that area will be very expensive.

Option 2 Keep the ground water continuously frozen 24/7/365. The problem you have now never gets any worse. Economics suggests that if the cold store is empty it is cheaper not to keep it at low temperature. You pay a cost/time premium reducing the temperature from ambient when you want to increase capacity again, but the maths say it is still cheaper. Now add the cost of solving your ground heave problem into the equation and leaving the store cold all the time becomes the cheapest option.

I just wonder where the refrigeration units are dropping all the condensate. This may be the cause of all the water under the slab. And it just needs to be piped way.

The floor was cheaply done. Insulation on top of the soil. The insulation will get saturated with water or even with it waterproof the water level could rise and touch the concrete. So what other corners did they cut.

The OP's problem has nothing whatsoever to do with condensate from refrigeration units.

I was working on a walk-in at a market once. it was a balmy 15 degrees inside. the heater wrap on the condensate failed, the 5/8's copper pipe looked like an M-80 blew it open! ice is very strong

Of course, but that's not the OP's problem, either. (Unless maybe a separate problem.)

How do you know? They could have the drains running right through the slab....in any case it could be adding to the problem....

That is not what this problem is about.

To find out if the problem is caused by seepage or condensation, tape a 2' x 2' piece of plastic to the floor during normal conditions when the slab isn't noticeably wet. Remove the plastic after 24 hours, and see if the concrete under it is damp. If it is, then a vapor barrier wasn't installed under the slab when it was poured.

Thank you very much everybody for your comments. It is always good to have more options. They all were very useful. I appreciate it.