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Anonymous Poster #1

How to Specify Ambient Conditions For Power Plant.

05/12/2016 3:47 PM

I am in the process of preparing the technical specifications for a HFO fired engine to be included in a tender document; where I am required to provide the ambient conditions at the site location but I am not sure if there is a tolerance that should be added when specifying these ambient conditions.
Ambient conditions.
Temperature: Min 24 Max 32 ...........SHOULD A TOLERANCE BE ADDED TO THE MIN AND MAX TEMP?
Humidity: Max 83.7 ..................SHOULD I SPECIFY THE MINIMUM HUMIDITY TOO?
Altitude: 2.9 meters.................SHOULD A TOLERANCE BE ADDED TO THE ALTITUDE?
The source of my data is not very reliable since the resources available in my country is limited, hence my worry about accuracy too.
The altitude was obtained from Draft Logic; a web based software. The other two parameters were obtained using RETScreen.
Suggestions of software(s) to obtain reasonable accurate data are very welcome too.

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#1

Re: How to specify ambient conditions for power plant.

05/12/2016 4:16 PM

I would think that in this sort of document prospective clients would be more concerned with extreme conditions, such as altitude, and/or temperature , perhaps even marine environment suitability etc....the exact swings of temperature and humidity don't seem necessary... but rather a general statement as to preparations made for anticipated location requirements....therefore I might list the design limits as presented with a disclaimer that special preparations may be needed for extreme environments that would exceed the present design specifications for optimal performance....

http://powerplants.man.eu/fuels/hfo

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#5
In reply to #1

Re: How to specify ambient conditions for power plant.

05/12/2016 5:57 PM
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#2

Re: How to specify ambient conditions for power plant.

05/12/2016 5:06 PM

The max 83.7 RH sounds odd; does it never rain there? Or is this a value that can be exceeded a small percentage of the time?

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#3

Re: How to Specify Ambient Conditions For Power Plant.

05/12/2016 5:19 PM

An altitude limit of 2.9 meters tells me this has nothing to do with reality. This power plant could only be installed on the beach near the ocean.

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#4

Re: How to Specify Ambient Conditions For Power Plant.

05/12/2016 5:25 PM

Anonymous posters should not be allowed to prepare technical specifications for a HFO fired engine to be included in a tender document.

You are not qualified.

If you were, you would not be asking an anonymous forum for technical advice.

Do your own homework.

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#8
In reply to #4

Re: How to Specify Ambient Conditions For Power Plant.

05/13/2016 7:59 AM

Sorry for posting as an anonymous poster. I am a Mechanical Engineer at a power utility company. No matter who post questions knowledge is nothing without sharing.

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#9
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Re: How to Specify Ambient Conditions For Power Plant.

05/13/2016 9:10 AM

Good luck.

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: How to Specify Ambient Conditions For Power Plant.

05/13/2016 9:24 AM

We've had many problems with anonymous posters. This is why Lyn and many others have a poor opinion of anonymous posters.

Knowledge is still knowledge regardless of it being shared. Knowledge without comprehension is just trivia.

Your question tells me that you do not comprehend what should be specified for any aspect of a power plant, let alone the ambient conditions for this plant. For starters you didn't share with us the size of the power plant nor the power source for the plant. The anticipated ambient conditions for a 3,000 watt gasoline powered portable generator will be different than a 2500 Megawatt hydroelectric power plant. Don't get me started on atomic power. You don't even specify if "ambient" is inside or outside of a building structure.

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#11
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Re: How to Specify Ambient Conditions For Power Plant.

05/13/2016 10:16 AM

I did state the source; HFO (heavy fuel oil engine), and wouldn't "adverse" ambient conditions affect a power plant irrelevant of the size. Common sense would have it that if engine was to be placed outside a building then one would have use the parameters outside the building and if placed inside then the parameters inside would be used. Am i right?

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#12
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Re: How to Specify Ambient Conditions For Power Plant.

05/13/2016 10:55 AM

Thanks for now identifying the previously unspecified acronym, HFO. Will the engine be a modified VW Rabbit diesel engine, fuel oil heated steam boiler driving a steam turbine, or some other engine that consumes this type of fuel to turn your mechanical load. Unless you've found a miraculous way to control the outside weather conditions you should refer to historical weather conditions for this mysterious location and allow for some very broad ambient conditions. If you intend to put this engine inside a building how do you intend to get the waste heat and exhaust out of the building? Surely this will have an effect on the ambient conditions in the building.

How much are you willing to pay others to do this job?

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#15
In reply to #11

Re: How to Specify Ambient Conditions For Power Plant.

05/13/2016 5:51 PM

No. - JHF

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#16
In reply to #11

Re: How to Specify Ambient Conditions For Power Plant.

05/13/2016 6:03 PM

You should confess to whoever hired you that you are lost and ask them for help.

If you are not able to justify your decisions and specifications how will you ever become a real engineer?

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#17
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Re: How to Specify Ambient Conditions For Power Plant.

05/16/2016 9:16 AM

Susceptibility to outside conditions (this affects intake air to the engine primarily) is a factor in maximum load that can be sustained by the engine. Since the ISO conditions specified for testing of DF engines at the factory are 25 °C, and 1 bar (practically sea level atmospheric pressure), and turbocharger scavenge air cooler inlet water temperature of also 25 °C.

High humidity decreases the oxygen content of air only slightly, but does lower the density of the air, and thus reduces mass flow to the turbocharger. You will find the outside air parameters to be key in determining the correct engine model to install at the site, whether the engine is placed outdoors or indoors. If your location is far different from ISO conditions (at least your barometric pressure is good at the specified location (as to elevation)), then one will find the engine running more efficiently (if the air and cooling water inlet temperatures are colder than ISO), or less efficiently (if air and water are higher than ISO). Consult OEM literature to determine the required matching engine type for your location, along with the rating curves of the engine.

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#6

Re: How to Specify Ambient Conditions For Power Plant.

05/12/2016 6:20 PM

Don't bother being too specific with trying to specify your plant to actual ambient conditions, just use standard generic conditions the equipment is already specified to that common sense match the country (like the ambient condition specifications for the generators).

The more specific you are in the tender with ambient conditions the more problems you will have because others tendering won't be doing this and it will raise questions as to your plant suitability. As long as they can see the equipment will be suitable (for example if the installation is to be in a very cold or hot environment) that's all they are really looking for.

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#7

Re: How to Specify Ambient Conditions For Power Plant.

05/13/2016 4:01 AM

"The equipment is to be installed at XdegN/S, YdegE/W at an altitude of Z metres above/below mean sea level and is to be suitable for the prevailing and predictable weather conditions at that location until the year 20xx."?

Such a statement places the burden on weather and altitude compatibility upon the equipment supplier.

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#13

Re: How to Specify Ambient Conditions For Power Plant.

05/13/2016 1:57 PM

Tell the HFO engine OEM, that the temperature could be outside the minimum-maximum range for 10% of the time (just for covering bases)

Your humidity data is goofy - If humidity never gets over 84%, then you must be in the Atacama high desert. Maybe that was supposed to be 84% RH on average. That makes a lot more sense to the average engineer, not the maximum engineer.

If your elevation (altitude) is 2.9 meters, most engines will run better (including any gas turbines, or piston type engines) near sea level and 20 C than way above that in elevation, and way hotter. For example: if 40 C and 1000m, engine performance could drop off by at least 15%, more likely 20%, simply due to issues with compressing combustion air.

Humidity is not particularly helpful for hot air intake values, as this also lowers air mass flow (especially reduces oxygen flow to combustion zone).

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#14

Re: How to Specify Ambient Conditions For Power Plant.

05/13/2016 2:16 PM

Temperature data should be based on a 100 year history for the site. State the minimum and maximum, and subtract/add 5 degrees for each.

I don't know where you are getting your humidity, but most industrial equipment is required to withstand 0-95% condensing. Equipment required to be outdoors will be rated as such and need not be addressed.

Your elevation is negligible, therefore I would state it as "sea level".

Not knowing where your plant is located, there may be other specifications required such as snow load, wind load, seismic criteria, etc.

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