Previous in Forum: reduction by Hydrazine   Next in Forum: common product that will dissolve polyurethane
Close
Close
Close
23 comments
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hyderabad, India
Posts: 211
Good Answers: 3

Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/03/2007 8:48 AM

Hi! I have to create an overlapped joint of ceramic and copper. Can somebody suggest suitable adhesive? or, is there any other method of joining these? Remember! the joint will undergo oscillating temperatures between 20 and 200 degC. Joint has to accomodate the expansion & contraction of the metal.

__________________
B +ve
Register to Reply
Pathfinder Tags: ceramic Copper Joining
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#1

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/03/2007 9:03 AM

Copper rivets?

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Piney Flats, Tennessee
Posts: 1740
Good Answers: 23
#2

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/03/2007 11:56 AM

So many materials so little time.

What is the application? Is it vertical? Is there constant pressure ? What is the pressure level on the joint? What is the lenght limitation on the connection?

Can you create a compression seal on the ceramic? Is it exposed or buried after completion?

__________________
If you never do anything you never have problems.
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hyderabad, India
Posts: 211
Good Answers: 3
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/03/2007 3:06 PM

dadw5boys,

Copper tube interspaced with ceramic tube (to isolate electrically) with a copper bush overlapped on the outer diameters, one part TIG welded to Cu pipe but the other which goes on ceramic has to provide a joint which will see a vaccum of 10-4 bar and a pressure of 108 bar and temperatures already mentioned. Lenght of overlap on each side is 9mm. Compression seal on ceramic not feasible as it may break it. Joint is exposed to atmosphere.

__________________
B +ve
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/03/2007 3:54 PM

D'UH ...........Why didn't you say TUBE at trick one???

Gimme a break....

Rivets NBG then!

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Commissariat de Police, Nouvions, occupied France, 1942.
Posts: 2599
Good Answers: 76
#12
In reply to #3

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/06/2007 3:36 AM

pressure of 108 bar

....exceeds the yield stress of both copper and ceramic!

__________________
Good moaning!
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - United Kingdom - Member - Get things done!

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: East Anglia, UK
Posts: 2003
Good Answers: 3
#13
In reply to #12

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/06/2007 4:16 AM

According to my very rough calculation, that's about 14,500 million Psi!

WHAT!

I've never heard of a pressure vessel built to take that sort of pressure, so either there's a case of fat finger syndrome here, or some things afoot! What gives?

__________________
'The truth is out there' The lies are in your head.
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#14
In reply to #13

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/06/2007 4:21 AM

This is obviously a fitting for use in a black hole!

or some things afoot!

Can we do all the Holmes/Watson gags....can we can we can we?

'Look Holmes...an impression of a shoe!''

This is no time for your impressions Watson!'

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hyderabad, India
Posts: 211
Good Answers: 3
#16
In reply to #12

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/06/2007 6:43 AM

Sorry!!!!! It is 8 bar folks!!!!!!

__________________
B +ve
Register to Reply
Participant

Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 2
#22
In reply to #3

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

11/05/2015 12:15 PM

Those flanges are good you mentioned but I happen to find some flanges here that seemed to be better quality because they are US created. Many manufacturers import their flanges and wear down quicker. Something I learned from experience.

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Old New Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South east U.K.
Posts: 3549
Good Answers: 93
#23
In reply to #22

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

11/05/2015 1:41 PM

Yes, our main local supplier of flanges & similar now buy all of their parts from China.

__________________
I didn't have a really important life, but at least it's been funny (Lemmy Kilminster 1945-2015)
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Somewhere in the hills of Pennsylvania, I think.
Posts: 246
Good Answers: 4
#5

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/04/2007 1:00 AM

This might be a little off the wall as I don't truly understand the joint design, however, if the ceramic is porous enough, you could consider plasma spraying the ceramic joint area with copper then silver brazing the tubing to it. Just a thought.

__________________
I'm somewhere between the age of thirty-something and Alzheimer's. I just can't remember where!
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#6

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/04/2007 7:55 AM

One method is to metalize the ceramic using one of a number of processes. Then you can join to copper using solder, silver solder, or any of a number of available materials.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 103
Good Answers: 1
#9
In reply to #6

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/04/2007 9:16 PM

You are right on the button, we have sprayed glass with copper and put two sheets of glass togerther by soldering the copper sprayed material for windows. This is a very simple process, you can either roughen the ceramic for the spray to grip or pre heat to about 200 F and then spray and use ordinary tin base solder material for joining the two

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#20
In reply to #6

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/06/2007 3:04 PM

How can spray cooper?

Where to find a machine for this process.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#7

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/04/2007 12:33 PM

I personally would finely abrade both surfaces, clean intimately and use a top grade fluid epoxy......

Then pressure test after fully curing! BUT STAND WELL BACK!!!!

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#8

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/04/2007 12:40 PM

Can the ceramic be made with an anular groove? The copper could be formed down into the groove to provide a mechanical join.

I personally favour glue made from fish skins...but only 'cos I'm a cat and love fish skin.. mmmmmmmmmmm

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Model Rocketry - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Long.92E,Lat.26N
Posts: 1336
Good Answers: 14
#10

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/05/2007 12:08 AM

Silver Brazing is your only way.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Commissariat de Police, Nouvions, occupied France, 1942.
Posts: 2599
Good Answers: 76
#17
In reply to #10

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/06/2007 7:24 AM

And not epoxy adhesive?

__________________
Good moaning!
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Germany 49° 26' N, 7° 46' O
Posts: 1950
Good Answers: 109
#11

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/05/2007 12:29 PM

Hi to all,

this joining is done by the companies that fabricate vacuum feedtrough parts:

alumina ceramic metallised by Mo-Mn burnt in under protective gas.

Mo-Mn - metallisation is solderable or brazable to any othe metallic material.

Expansion mismatch has to be calculated and elastic or plastic deformation allowed.

The other possibility is brazing with active brazing material (like silver-copper-?- and some titanium added for reactivity.

This requires a good vacuum or a very pure argon atmosphere.

We use this for brazing of diamonds to carbide tools and ruby or sapphire to carbide or other material, also siliconnitride all these also to ordinary steels and stainless.

RHABE

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Old New Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South east U.K.
Posts: 3549
Good Answers: 93
#15
In reply to #11

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/06/2007 6:14 AM

I think that you will find that the Mo/Mn metallising is used because it wets to the ceramic well but it does not braze or solder readily. The Mo/Mn is usually nickel plated & it is the nickel that wets to the metal part during brazing/ soldering.

__________________
I didn't have a really important life, but at least it's been funny (Lemmy Kilminster 1945-2015)
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - I am a Yankee Doodle Boy. Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - Old School is the best school. Safety - ESD - Safety Mgr that keeps the peace Hobbies - DIY Welding - My Motto:

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Broken Arrow, OK, USA
Posts: 838
Good Answers: 26
#18

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/06/2007 2:20 PM

Just a quick question my curiosity being what it is.

Which has the greater expansion rate Copper or Ceramic.

Reason being for the Q is which would go on the outside the one that expands slower or the faster one.

Which leads me to Q#3( I know i said a quick One)

If the copper expands faster and its supposed to be put inside the ceramic then how long could it possibly last before cracking the ceramic and failing of the converse of that separating from the outer and breaking the seal?

Ok I'm done

__________________
If necessity is the mother of invention then is laziness the mother of necessity?
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Somewhere in the hills of Pennsylvania, I think.
Posts: 246
Good Answers: 4
#19
In reply to #18

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/06/2007 2:55 PM

In a nutshell, the copper will expand at a greater rate for a given temperature rise than the ceramic material. Therefore the copper should go on the outside. If the ceramic is metalized using a high temperature process such as plasma spraying, the spray coating should shrink on cooling. Now the sprayed on copper is like a very tight band on a ceramic core. This should solve, to a great degree, the possible problem of the copper loosening its grip on the ceramic at elevated operating temperatures. It's just a calculated guess at this point and needs to be tested. It seems to me, to be the obvious choice at this point. At 200C (392F) heat cycling an epoxy may cause early failure of this joint. But 200C is not enough heat to repeatedly anneal the copper and cause loosening. It would certainly help the situation if the ceramic surface were roughened to provide a better mechanical grip for the metalizing process. In applying this copper spray and the subsequent brazing of the copper tube over it, I would not be in favor of furnace brazing as I would want to keep the ceramic core cooler than the copper in order to get a tighter joint.

__________________
I'm somewhere between the age of thirty-something and Alzheimer's. I just can't remember where!
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Old New Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South east U.K.
Posts: 3549
Good Answers: 93
#21
In reply to #19

Re: Adhesive or any other method for joining Copper to Ceramic

08/07/2007 4:39 AM

We build ceramic/copper brazed assemblies every day & the finished assembly has to be able to hold a vacuum of 10-9 torr. Obviously this is easier than trying to contain pressure because the material is being held in compression. We have to calculate the amount of relative expansion of the copper & ceramic components at the brazing temperature (~810°C) and size the components to suit thus the copper parts start out slightly smaller than the ceramics. The ceramic, being stronger in compression tends to dominate once the assembly is cooled leaving the copper part in tension.

Bear in mind that the joint condition at the brazing temperature must be considered. If you have a concentric joint with the parts fitting at room temperature there could be a large gap at the brazing temperature which must be completely filled with brazing material.

A flat end to end joint is much easier to manage & the result is surprisingly strong.

The ceramic metallising is generally done by screen printing on flat surfaces & by hand painting on curved surfaces and then fired to bond the Mo/Mn layer to the ceramic. The metallising is then nickel plated to provide the brazing surface.

Do the metal parts have to be copper? There are specific nickel alloy steels with trade names such as Kovar and Telcoseal that have been designed to match the expansion rate of alumina ceramic and which have good brazing properties.

__________________
I didn't have a really important life, but at least it's been funny (Lemmy Kilminster 1945-2015)
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 23 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Andy Germany (1); Anonymous Poster (2); capri (2); Crabtree (2); dadw5boys (1); Del the cat (4); double_j_b (1); FKIA (2); MUKULMAHANT (1); Nigh (3); nonstop99 (1); PlbMak (1); RHABE (1); vishmayor (1)

Previous in Forum: reduction by Hydrazine   Next in Forum: common product that will dissolve polyurethane

Advertisement