drainage

If I understand you correctly you have storm water accumulating at some point(s) and cannot provide for an escape trench or pipe because of solid rock.

The first option would be to fill up the low parts and provide for a slight slope running in the direction where the water can be disposed of. But this may be impossible.

The second option is to create a sump(s) at the lowest point(s) and install a dewatering pump(s) with a float switch(es).

The third option might be to create a sump with a self priming dewatering syphon.

The self priming can be effected by placing a baffle in the down pipe.

Reading again it seems that your foundation trenches are flooded, a contractors self priming dewatering pump or a siphon can be used.

A bit more info will help.

sorry i was so my info was not much to work with ill brake down the hole property for you there is a big behind my house the side i am get water from water is always coming out of the rock on the hill i had a contractor take a look at i and he said that there needed to be drain lines on the hill side before the driveway and then drain line along the house yes there is a driveway between the hill and the house now my concern is with pipe the lines will clog with silt and also when the built the house they cut drain channels in the floor and drain out to the low part of the basement also this is a 2 foot wide stone foundation and i have dug the one side of the foundation about 6 feet down and a 40 ft length is this going to hurt anything so i have it filled back in once i get the water problem fix, because he said it would weaken the structure of the house with that much fill away from the walls

What or where is the water getting into. Is it a basement or lower room? Assuming it is a structural wall I would recommend against removing fill from underneath the wall until you have assured it will be properly supported.

Perhaps it would be easier to understand your problem if you broke your thoughts into logical chunks.

Let's call them 'sentences'. Start each one with a capital letter to keep them tidy. Put a full stop at the other end to show where it finishes.

Put some paragraph gaps between groups of sentences that form a whole coherent idea or thread.

ASVP, "Since thoughts are words, I bet people with limited vocabularies are easily confused."

Since digging sounds like it's out of the question, I would probably knock a small hole in the wall at the lowest point. Channel the water through a screen into a pit. Then pump it out with a sump pump as was mentioned by by others before me.

JOwens, quite so. I didn't mean to sound, well, mean... I was merely trying to explain that a clearly-presented question is more likely to elicit a helpful and accurate reply. GI-GO.

Apologies to the questioner, no offence meant.

It is clear the situation is very difficult and probably very stressful. I hope that professional help is by now close at hand. This is a problem unlikely to be solved over the internet.

ASVP - Maybe you really needn't apologize. I tried to decipher the description and after the posters second try - I gave up.

Jowens --- I guarantee, related to my above comment to ASVP and your comment; "Since thoughts are words, I bet people with limited vocabularies are easily confused." -- I do not have a limited vocabulary, nor apparently does ASVP, and I find your comment a little over the top.

The posters problem is a serious one and I am sure there are several solutions.

BUT __ A description like below is not too hot.

-- Partial Quote -- ill brake down the hole property for you there is a big (what?) behind my house the side i am get water from water is always coming out of the rock on the hill i had a contractor take a look at i and he said that there needed to be drain lines on the hill side before the.

Capitals to start a sentence, periods to end a sentence, paragraphs to separate thoughts, etc etc are present in all areas of the world in various languages and cultures, and are pretty basic. I do not think ASVP's comment was rude or unreasonable.

With a difficult problem an engineer on this forum should be able to at least write a good description of the problem, effective communication is a very important concept.

This post is submitted respectfully an I am not attempting to insult anyone -- no one is perfect after all. Feel free to critique my mis-spellings or typos -- my point is a good one all over the world.

I think he was just trying to make himself feel welcome and at home among engineers. Kind of like dressing down--always a sport coat or blazer, never a suit--and so on--on the job. Or maybe it's supposed to make the brain look too fast for the writing hand? HOpe he'll have pity on us poor illiterates, though. Looks like a good challenging question.

Yes it is an interesting problem. As I said this type of problem really needs a professional to study the problem on-site.

Just this illiterates perspective though. Good communication is a critical skill in the engineering disciplines. Especially so the rest of us (as you put it, illiterates) can understand. Illiterates have a hard time with deciphering incomplete ramblings.

I think the fault does not lie in his grasp of English, but rather our ability to help. As you pointed out, there is that odd question that comes along every once in a while that is better left unanswered ("Please walk me through performing surgery on my wife.").

Needless to say, 500 years from now, if we could transport, there'd be a bunch of us meeting at his house, checking out the situation, and drinking lots of the local brew. Too bad that time isn't now.

I think the fault does not lie in his grasp of English, but rather our ability to help.

This might be so in some cases, but it's hard to see it in this one. For example, sometimes people who can visualize a problem or situation, but cannot easily express it, will fudge by making their statement so...(shall we call it) intractable as to be... deliberately incomprehensible--the objective being to elicit others to make the effort to provide the words. Sometimes also there is a dishonest (let me give garbage; maybe I'll get back gold) element.

You are also correct that we ought not to be too readily unwilling to do a little hand holding, if for no other reason than to test the "sincerity" of (in this case) a posted question. (Further, such consideration goes beyond what would be incumbent only upon engineers.) Indeed, it appears that others have both, done hand holding and, perhaps, sought to draw out a seemingly more sincere involvement by IP. I see scant evidence that those efforts have been responded to in kind, however--we don't seem really much further along than at the beginning.

From another perspective, a tool is readily at hand to assist those for whom writing is a difficult, or foreign, task: the ABC spell checker. Sometimes merely cleaning up the text with this could render an incomprehensible text more easily understood, it would seem. But this leads me to curiosity about whether the spell checker would be of much benefit on IP's rather "Germanic" style of composition. So I will now try a little experiment with IP's text to see what happens. Stand by to see the result.

Well the spell checker only showed that spell checker was used by IP. So maybe the best early response might have been simply to punctuate his initial posts and feed them back to him. Then we could have reduced things to more comprehensible earlier on.

It reads as though he was using one of those translation programs, like Babble Fish. They really don't work very well, and are more for entertainment than anything else.

Take any sentence, feed it in, then feed it back to the original language (I assume English in this case), it goes wild!!!

You are OK ASVP. No problems. You did fine.....you were completely in order, do not apologise in such cases.

Its a problem sometimes on CR4 that you get questions so badly written, most people cannot understand them fully (which is needed for a correct answer), you mention this and they go ballistic back!! How sadly lacking in manners.....

The same happens when someone supplies incomplete infos for a full answer......because they themselves do not have a clue.....

Also when someone chimes in with infos that have been added before by others, sometimes days before, again and again the same infos......they also go ballistic if you tell them that they ought to read first and then comment.....

Making the error itself is only human, but going ballistic when someone points it out shows a big personal problem in their own heads!!!

I sometimes wonder where this world is coming to with regards the complete lack of manners.

Have a great day.

Well said.

I feel that he has not ever learnt English, so we must not be too hard on him, but it is a devil trying to understand him.....

OK, so it sounds like the house has built on a ledge carved out of the side of a hill with an underground river running through it.

Which country, state or country is this in? You may be able to approach your water authority for some advice before you start digging and undermining your foundations any more.

What is the building made of - what materials? Is in built on piles, piers, or a concrete raft (slab) construction?

Can you not just install a series of pipes around the house to lead water away from the high side to the low side and then on down the hill (or into water tanks, if you need the water for agriculture, livestock or domestic use)? You could install steel grilles along the uphill side of the house, draining through a channel or gravel trap into a series of pipes.

Why wasn't the running water identified before construction? Whomever built the house may have a negligence case to answer for not having identified the risk properly in the first place. Have you spoken to a construction engineer, or a lawyer?

ChrisB

This drainage problem is hard to answer with out a lot more information i.e topo map, site map blue prints of the house, photos, etc. Plus knowledge of the location would help i.e. soil mapping, local and state regulations, etc. With out these types of information it is to dangerous to give an answer to your problem. I have 8 years of experience doing construction E&S and storm water management. If you want to send me additional information send it to hbaker@ptd.net

I do not have CAD at home so any plans have to be sent as a jpg.

If I understand you right that when they built the home they dug into the hill to flatten the lot. Now you have natural spring running from the hill continuously. The water runs against the foundation of the house. If the house has a basement? Your not clear on that then they should have put in a pretty good drain field and a sump pump in it. Sounds like they dug an artesian well and set the house in it. The spring on the hill is just filling the hole. If you have a basement have sump pump installed.

Were the hill drains place a barrier wall as deep as you can go. Run the wall between the house and the hill toward some slope away from the house. Back fill the hill side with crush and run.

I have a lot of questions for you and it would not be all.

Your best option however would be to employ a specialist.

.

What was the original slope?

How far in and deep is the cutting?

Slope and height of the cut face?

Are there rubble rolling down?

Type of rock formation?

Do the face need stabilisation?

What is the source of the flow?

What type of flow?

Is this your rainy (wet) season?

Type of rain? (soft or storms)

Avg. rain per year?

Is there any flow of water from below or just the side?

Where in the world are you? (Google earth co-ordinates would be nice)

Any other properties with the same problem.

What space is available next to the house.

Do you have an entrance road from the high side?

What is the local or national law on impeding, diverting, changing the beds and the banks of a water course

The following is a proposal to turn your predicament into a water feature.

Build a weir next to the slope.(1 – 2 m away) high enough to provide for a slope to the cliff. (catch the normal and storm water flow)

You may have to seal the inside.

Have the spillway on the edge of the property.

A water course must be build (above the base level)

Providing for cascades, calm ponds etc.

You could even install a waterwheel to provide power for pumping.

Ah, Hendrik, you crack me up.

Why stop with a weir? Why not duct the water over the top of the roof and have the spillway running about 2-3 metres in front of the house so the dwelling is situated behind a waterfall? The sound would be relaxing, and if the hill has enough of a gradient, the waterfall could become a tourist feature, generating funds from admission tickets to support the development cost.

A viewing platform could be built on a nearby hill, and if the base of the waterfall could form a natural basin, boat trips like the "Maid 'o' the Mist" could be run during the tourist season.

Floodlight it at night, and put a restaurant nearby, and the venue could become the local 'in' place for marriage proposals.

Initially, I thought this problem was too big to be solved.

I now realise it probably wasn't being viewed on a big-enough scale. Now, it's actually WORTH solving!

OK, I'll get my hat and coat now...

The water is a real problem for the poster and must be solved otherwise the property may have to be abandoned at a later stage.

The weir and water feature on the surface was proposed because trenching seems to be impossible and he specifically said that he did not want a pipe because of the rubble. The mini moat is not working either.

What practical solution would you suggest?

Very good response Hendrik, all of the information you have requested is what a good engineer would be expected to look at regarding this issue.

The questioner needs to hire a professional to resolve this problem, as all of the questions you presented are reasonable and IMPORTANT and only an onsite professional can evaluate this problem, it's not an internet issue..

ietech,

I think you are very right. It's one thing for someone to ask how to weld a piece of metal or pose a question about a circuit, but Wolf is try to describe a rather complicated structural situation regarding his home - on a hill, and in some sort of hydrological distress. To add to the problem he is having trouble with his interpreting.

I think professionalism at this point would indicate a graceful bowing out, and advising him to consult a local licensed contractor.

Vermin -- Yes, to gracefully bow out is really the only option at this point.

Didn't we just go through this with a church retention pond? Lots of questions, no info.

Wolf.The folks responding here do so because they choose to, have relevant insight and enjoy chewing on situations like yours. Why not bless us with something we can get our teeth into.

AMEN to that

Well is that better to all of you rude asses. On the other hand thank you for the helpful tips from the ones that didnt insalt me.

Gratitude. Hmmm. I guess.

I love this forum. I really do. I'm gettin old and soft. Not viagra soft the other kind you pervs.

WOW this is getting really sick for a group of professionals

No insult intended --- there are responsibilities that go along with being an engineer -- effective communication is paramount. Of course your last communication is perfectly clear --- you are not an engineer.

In many respect no. In many others you are quite mistaken. But the comment was all for the levity. Nothing more.

effective communication is paramount

I see you can spell ASSES correctly but not INSALT (insult) ----- please practice.

get real -- people want to help -- you need to be clear as to what the specifics of the problem are. You really need to consult a responsible professional, your problem cannot be solved without on-site help.

LOVE IT, LOVE IT!!!!

Maybe our friend is from "south of the border" so to say.......that would explain a lot!!

Nice house Vermin -- is it yours?

It's Fallingwater. The Frank Lloyd Wright house.

As if there is a lesser known house in the modern world.

This is the kind of thing that really makes you regret not being rich! Or criminally minded.

nice link.

I frigging wish!!!

Mr. Wolf120,

It the below what your are trying to ask? Thanks for any correction it needs.

My house was built on a rock ledge [more likely: on an outcropping or cut? or in/on an outwash, arroyo, gulch, gap, recess...?] near the top [near the bottom? as respects the affected side of the house? Else, why would water flow be much of a problem, if at all?] of a hill. I have a problem with water flowing down hill that gets in my basement. I have considered "tiling" (including perforated pipe), but large boulders, some as large as a car, in the subsoil of my yard makes it impossible to dig down to the foundation footing along the entire length of my house's uphill or lateral walls. I am also concerned about what could happen if--especially on the uphill from my house--I removed, or leave removed, the existing (diggable) backfill, leave it removed for too long, alter it, or replace it (what with boulders that could shift under gravity and such).

Sorry, I was so [rushed] my info was not much to work with; I'll try to "break down" the whole property [description] for you.

There is a big hill (cliff, escarpment, steep rise...) sloping up along the [one, two?] side of my house. On that side, in addition to runoff, ground water is always leaching (out of the hill) through the rocks and to the surface, from where it flows, and leaches, into my yard and toward my house. A (paved? bricked? other?) driveway crosses between the hill and my house. The (some kind of...?) contractor who took a look told me there needs to be "drain lines" paralleling the driveway both, along the uphill side and between driveway and house. (He did not say how the upper-level drainage would be routed off the property--whether it would continue out and then down hill along the entire length of the driveway to the public road? or to elsewhere?)
Inside, when the house was built, open channels were cut in the basement floor leading to the lowest point--a true French drain. [There is? Is not? a sump located there; along with drainage leading outward through the basement wall?]

Additionally, the foundation walls were constructed two feet thick with [some kind and size and shape of?] stone. Already I have dug a 6-ft-deep, 40-ft trench along one foundation wall [on the uphill? lateral? downhill?) side of the house.

So, my concerns needing answers are:

• That new drain lines in the yard will clog with silt.
• The contractor says the foundation there could be compromised (weakened, shifted, de-consolidated, eroded, ....) if left exposed, so I need to have answers about my concerns in bold face above, so I can take care of that as soon as possible.
• What is my most urgent priority?
• I am open to other suggestions than the contractor's; or improvements on his ideas.
• I am not certain if I would be able to get pics or about how to post them...or if that would be necessary or helpful.

Here is your best-advise quick fix. Finish digging your trench(es). Where you can trench around any obstructing boulder, do so (and do it at an ever-so-gently uphill slope out to the point farthest outward from the foundation wall). Where digging around the boulder is not feasible, tunnel through the boulder (in-situ) next to the foundation wall by drilling.

Lay your tiling/perforated pipe along the footing, going through the tunnels or around the boulders as applicable. As long as slopes are checked carefully to be running downward around boulders and towards the house, and (continuing) downward and around the house from these points, there should be no pooling that is not captured and drained.

Finally, back fill.

Wait and observe for a substantial period of time--preferably four seasons. Give us your result and any residual problems. From your property and property improvement description, I would guess your house is located in eastern U.S. Don't see silt (but more likely, sand) blockage as very likely. Using a larger drain diameter should reduce the possibility. You can also incorporate clean-out/flush-out channels down to the drain line.

Here's another idea that might be more workable and work just as well or better...as an augmentation to the drain tiling you have (presumably) installed.

Uphill from that driveway dig a trench across the property for the width of the house (and any paved drives going around the house). If you meet obstructions, trench around them and continue on. Try to follow the slope "rules" mentioned above for foundation tiling. At the two ends of the ditch, turn the digging (and trench ends) downslope and continue towards the spaces at the sides of the house. If, following slope rules, either end of the trench meets grade level, that's okay. When the trench is dug and slope verified (with levels or water or hoses), you will lower heavy-mill plastic sheeting down into the (probably meandering) trench, then affix the sheet against the downhill side of the trench for its entire length--or at least as far as the lateral sides of the house...or to where the trench "emerges" at grade level. At trench bottom, the sheet will fold and lay across the trench, even coming up a little on the uphill side. The upper edge of the sheet will reach up to the root zone of the lawn. (You will need to determine trench depth based on your particular topography and house characteristics.) The sheet will be nailed near the top edge to hold it in place. Next, a perforated (flexible, not rigid) drain pipe will be laid--perforations down (only!!) along the length of the trench; but, before that, you will need to select the method of sand exclusion. A sock over the pipe is the easiest, but not effective for all soil types. Check with your supplier. If not sock, then drape a length of landscape cloth (the heavy cloth, not that thin black stuff) along the length of the trench against the uphill side (opposite the plastic) and extending across the trench bottom--under the plastic, preferably. Use pins/nails to hold it in place. The cloth strip will be wide enough to reach up about 3 - 6 inches above the pipe (when installed) and to be folded at 90 degrees across the trench and over to the plastic, and back down a few inches or so. Next, add a few inches of gravel (rock/aggregate etc.) uniformly across the bottom of the trench for its entire length. Maintain gravel layer slope uniform with trench bottom. Now, lay in the perforated pipe--again, perf's downward. Then add more gravel to cover the pipe by several inches, even the gravel out at the top, and then release and fold the excess landscape cloth over the pipe and gravel. (The landscape cloth will prevent sand (soil effluent) from entering the gravel and clogging the pipe. Finally, backfill using the removed top soil and replant or re-sod. If the drain pipe emerges at grade level at either end, prepare a surface drain channel from that/those point/s to carry water down-slope from there. For more information and advise locally where you are, the term for this subsurface drain type is: curtain drain. (In this case, meandering curtain drain.) Any water leaching/flowing towards your foundation will be intercepted by the vertical plastic sheeting and fall to the gravel collection zone at the bottom of the (no longer)trench. From there it accumulates in the pipe through the perf's and falls downhill around the sides of the house.