Diesel Truck Issues Caused by Dyed Diesel Fuel?

'Red diesel' or gas-oil is not subject to the duty imposed on fuels used on public roads in the UK, and it is therefore not lawful to use it thus, unless the vehicle is exempted by way of it being an agricultural vehicle doing less than 6 miles per week on the public roads. HM Revenue and Customs inspectors can detect the equivalent of one drop in 10,000 gal and its detection in a non-exempt road-going vehicle is sufficient evidence to achieve successful prosecution.

........so the dealership probably doesn't want to touch it.

How can they detect it if they cant see it from routine inspection?

They use thestiomeglatomitry and a spectral lamiheanoscpoe.

I see no reason why that which we know as 'red diesel' in the UK should wreck anything. I wasn't aware anyone had passed any laws compelling engines running the wrong fuel to break down, but we are happlily unaware of many of the laws recently introduced. Too much talk of 'public consultation' preventing one hearing properly.

Was there politics in that? sorry

Indeed!

Red diesel runs dump truck engines, narrowboat engines, portable air compressor engines, etc., etc., quite happily. 'Guest' is probably right.

Pardon the ignorance but who is/was S D Mee??

(Sorry, coudn't resist correcting the spelling of Herr Diesel's name)

Hi Wrenched. Last month I was shown a GCSE physics exam paper, the student had spelled the word diesel; deezel. So much for British education! Spencer.

deezel is the American rap spelling, don't worry about it....

There is a difference: the regular contains stabilizers, which are not added to the dyed. I would also expect changes on the cetane figure and parrafin content. (everything that is not sellable through the diesel channel is sold through this channel)

The dye is also quite nasty, how it reacts with the injectors is not completely clear. (oil burning systems are also based on high pressure injectors, only without the shut off needle system and an other style of pump (gear in stead of piston)

In remote locations the two are comparable as the red diesel is regular with the dye additive (same large storage tank), if your supplier get his stuff closer to the manufacturer the differences can be bigger.

Well said Thanks.

For us Americans, what exactly is "red diesel?"

Household heating oil

Why would someone try to run their diesel vehicle on that?!

Diesel costs me 1.1 €/liter

Household heating oil costs 0.6 €/liter

Official Belgian maximum prices.

FYI: Super 98+ (regular unleaded, octane > 98) 1.438 €/liter

Gwen,

Thanks for the info so far. But more questions... If you have a diesel motor, would the chemical properties of heating oil be close enough to risk it?

This seem like taking a gasoline engine and trying to run it on kerosene or something equally not gas.

Your thought?

Red diesel in the U.S. is untaxed diesel. If I recall correctly in Canada it is purple fuel when untaxed. It is sold for construction and agricultural equipment which operate off road. I have personally been involved in dying diesel oil and though it is a nasty substance I don't know why it would destroy your injectors. If yours is a road vehicle you have a real problem. If the dyed diesel was not used knowingly you need to contact the autorities and have them check into every diesel refueling station you've dealt with. I think the dealer doesn't want to deal with you because they see you as being in trouble with the law, they don't want to turn you in and they don't want to get caught working on your problem without having turned you in. In reality this is probably a warranty issue on such a new truck - if routine maintenance has been kept up and is well documented - armed with a police report of the problem of the incorrectly bought diesel oil you should be able to go on up the food chain of the truck manufacturer and get it handled.

Huh! I think you need to get out from under all those silicon chips & visit some of the fine farming areas around you.

You see there is a thing called a "transportation tax" and it is applied to the price of fuel we buy to run our vehicles. Since diesels are very prominent on other types of equipment such as generators, tractors, air compressors, etc, there is an alternative offered where they put a red dye into the diesel and it is sold for off-road use only.

I think my understanding contradicts Gwens, but I'm in the UK and he's in Belgium where things could be different. Heating oil, here at least, is 28sec Kerosine. This is probably not a lot different from diesel but enough for cookers that use each to be marketed under different designations. As Gwen says, there is a huge difference in tax/duty. Basically anything that could be used for running a vehicle for private use the government screws you blind for. Diesel is sold for agricultural uses with much reduced duty but dyed red to identify it. It gives 'them' another opportunity to screw you! So federal govt doesnt do this??

So what about this red dye is so damaging to fuel injectors? And did the Gov plan it this way?

Sorry to be like a 4 year old boy... "Why? Why? Why?' But I can't communicate to you how alien this is to Americans!

And did the Gov plan it this way?

"Red" diesel has been around for decades here in UK. Whilst agricultural diesel engines are still built to tolerate it, quite likely that modern road-going diesels can not.

Maybe useful serendipity for HMG then, rather than planned!

THE RED DYE DOESN'T AFFECT THE ENGINE IN ANY WAY I USE IT ON MY REEFER UNIT IN MY TRAILER AND NEVER HAD AN INJECTION PROBLEM THE DYE IS FOR TAX PURPOSE IF YOU USE RED FUEL IN A REGULAR BASES ALL YOUR DOING IS GETTING CHEAPER FUEL. THE WARRANTY IS LIKE INSURANCE IT'S ONLY GOOD UNTIL YOU NEED IT. SCREW THE DEALER TAKE IT TO A MECHANIC AND BUY THE INJECTOR WITH THE MONEY YOU SAVED, ON PAYING THESE BASTARDS TAXES.. GOOD LUCK AND REMENBER SCREW THEM B4 THEY SCREW YOU

Don't shout!!!

The question is not whether the red dye hurts your engine. Rather, the question is: Is there something contained in regular diesel (or visa versa) that is different than red diesel. And could this difference (whatever it is [not the dye]) mess up the engine in his truck.

IR-2005-118, Oct. 6, 2005

WASHINGTON – The Department of the Treasury and the Internal Revenue Service, in response to the continued shortages of diesel fuel caused by Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, will extend the penalty relief period during which dyed diesel fuel can be sold for use or used on the highway. The penalty relief will apply throughout the United States.

In IR-2005-104, released Sept. 15, 2005, the IRS announced it would not impose the dyed fuel penalty when dyed diesel fuel is sold for use or used on the highway and that this relief would remain in effect through Oct. 5, 2005. Today's announcement extends that penalty relief through Oct. 25, 2005. Any dyed diesel fuel held by retailers or users on Oct. 25, 2005, can be used on the highway after that date.

This relief is available to any person who sells or uses dyed diesel fuel for highway use. In the case of fuel that is dyed at the terminal to meet IRS standards, the relief is available to the operator of the vehicle in which the fuel is used only if the operator or the person selling the fuel pays the tax of 24.4 cents per gallon.

To the extent permitted by EPA rules, dyed high sulfur fuel received by retailers, including fuel received after Oct. 25, 2005, may be sold for highway use if the dye is added only at the refinery to meet EPA standards, but not if dye is added at the terminal to meet IRS standards. IRS will waive penalties for highway use of high sulfur fuel that is dyed only at the refinery to meet EPA standards. Retailers may rely on the representations of their suppliers that fuel received after Oct. 25, 2005, has not been dyed at the terminal.

Position holders are reminded that they are required to pay tax on any high sulfur diesel fuel that has not been dyed at the terminal to meet IRS standards. Terminal operators should not dye, or add additional dye to, any fuel on which tax is paid.

Ordinarily, dyed diesel fuel is not taxed, because it is sold for uses exempt from excise tax, such as to farmers for farming purposes and to local governments for buses.

Links:

Interfering with unrestricted capitalism is no longer "communist," it's "terrorism!"

Orange alert!!! Orange alert!!!

And, yes, ALL the refineries were in Louisiana!!! Except for the several hindered or so, they're keeping off line in the rest of the US.

i live in a rural kansas area and i use red dyed diesel in my 2 kubota tractors and my genset, one of my tractors is new and in the manual it states that it can be ran on highway fuel which is supposed to have a lower sulfur content which if used in the older diesel equipment does not have the lubricity due to the lack of sulfur.

Dude... "lubricity?!"

Is that anything like "Squeakycleanyocity?"

There are two types of Red Diesel: the one that is sold as household fuel, and the version that is sold as agricultural fuel.

The fact that these two are existing pinpoints the differences. In older day's a diesel engine just ran on everything that was oil. Later the cetane figure and visicosity was fixed and engines got more efficient with fuel.

The higher these engines evolved, the bigger the influence on fuel quality became.

Modern engines really need the diesel quality. Farmers did ask for this red diesel when they were forced to buy normal engine fuel by the tractor suppliers.

In rural areas it is exactly the same, just with the red dye added for household use or agrcultural use. This has a logistic reason. (one vessel can supply the full range of oil based fuels to the depot)

There is now an idea that trucks must be able to run on a separate version that is taxed somewhere between. You see: the normal working man has to pay for everything.

Red diesel is also known as farm diesel and as far as I know should not cause any problems with diesel engines. If the 2004 Dodge Ram has a lot of off road uses on a farm it can legitimately use farm diesel as long as logs show the purchases of road diesel for road use and farm diesel for farm use.

The dealer is committing a fraud by denying warranty to you, but if you sue him he may call the people who inspect for red diesel in on road cars. He fiigures he can make you pay for the work and he will also submit it for warranty repair and thus get paid twice for the job.??

If you use heating oil you can damage injectors as it lacks the injector lubricants you need, however there are many small bottles of injector cleaners you can buy to solve this problem.

Just google these.

Sounds like the dealer is trying to get out of repair-under-warranty by using the Red diesel excuse. Firstly, the breakdown you describe happened overnight whereas damaged injectors would be a slow process with a gradual loss of power/performance and increased fuel consumption.

My recommendation would be to take a sample of the tank fuel, get all your fuel receipts, (they are for kosher fuel I hope???) and go to trading standards or your lawyer. By taking a sample first you hope that the dealer won't spike the fuel with a bit of Red diesel and try to cheat you that way. Maybe I'm over suspicious but dealers who sell vehicles with 107,000Km on the clock and offer warranty aren't always keen to honour it.

Red Dye Diesel in the US is used for off road engines. As of right now there is a higher ppm sulfur content in it then the ultra-low sulfur diesel used by standard diesel engines. The sulfur acts as a lubricate in the harder working of road engines, the sulfur is what probably gummed up the works

Hi bakerjohn. Thanks, I often wondered why when travelling behind a tractor the exaust stinks, now I know why, Sulfur. spencer.

I work in the mining and construction industry all of our mining equipment uses off-road "red" diesel. One of the main problems we're running into now is, with the government switch to a low-sulfur mixture this year then by 2010 to ultra-low, the older equipment is having a harder time running with out the sulfur. We now have two choices: add an additive to the fuel, with a 200 ton Cat Truck is several gallons a day, or buy new equipment.

The DOT and the DOE implimented a fuel additive change six months ago during a DOE meeting in Washinton D.C.

I watched the procedings because I was interested in investing in the corporations who are replacing the sulpher additive, under mandate, in order to remove tons of sulpher dioxide from our air, highways and industry waste.

Your injectors may be contaminated because of water or from any granular sediment accumulation from mineral or particiularly meteal fragments, which rusted; within the fuel.

If the sulpher additives were intentionally removed, as specified under regulation, then you also may have received fuel without PTFE lubricant additive. This will destroy more than just your injectors, it will score your cylinder walls, remove the coatings from your pistons and re-temper the rings.

I would think it more likely there was regular gas or water in your tank by accident, unless you have old agricultural fuel from some benign source. Regular fuel has more allowances for metals which cause granular growth within injector and fuel filter screens

Currently, there is no regulated testing methods, inspection or enforcement of pipeline opperators or refiners; controlling PTFE replacement. The issue was discussed at the meeting where these regulations were implimented.

This means we cannot be sure if ANY PTFE, whatsoever, has been added or if the fuel we are using for industry is at a concentration which provides a safe amount of lubrication within the Diesel we are buying now. This will undoubtedly cost many companies valuable hours of down-time and equiptment failures as the weaknesses of this lagislation and regulation are found impacting the bottom line. Much of the responsibility is being garnered by pipeline opperators, who may flush the pipes frequently in order to switch between products being delivered at any given time, through the various pipelines. The profit margins are astronomical for this new service, especially if there is no regulation to oversee the amount actually used.

Your truck manufacturer may be aware of these regulations and the weaknesses within the fuel mandates, because it efffectively releives them of costly warrantee repairs, if they can allaby the reason for the damages.

I'm sure they will offer to fix it for you or sell you a new engine, though.

I would be buying the stuff by the case, if I were you. The chance of getting a tank of hard diesel will probably increase before action at a Federal level will be sought and inacted.

Just intrigated: are they replacing the sulphur by PTFE?

What happens with the PTFE in the burning process?

Then you have a Fluoride source, which is not so healty. (at least when the PTFE would burn, I know from my own experience that it does not decompose up till 400°C)

Here's what the pro's say about fuel additives; in general, (no sense fighting NASA about this one, right?):

http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/idx/18/141/article/Snake_Oil__Is_That_Additive_Really_A_Negative.html

So what do we use to replace the friction component sulpher once provided, if the pipeline guys are not adding it??

My local NAPA guy, just last week; says the diesels are having major problems lately.

Nice article, but it was on oil additives.

Now the PTFE is added to the fuel (when I understood the discussion above), what does this bring for nice features?

In NY the dyed versus clear has to do with taxes. Off road Diesel is exempt from taxes and is dyed so the DOT fuel narcs can see if on-road Diesel users are trying to evade the taxes. As far as the engine itself is concerned and how it burns in the engine, there is no difference. Some of the same engines are used in road versus off-road equipment. The dye causing injection problems is horse hockey. A lot of the Dodge dealerships that sell the Diesels know nothing about the Diesels. The service manager at the dealer I bought mine at asked me one time if I thought I should have the spark plugs changed. I had to tactfully tell him that I did not have any spark plugs in my engine. I am not sure if the 2004 has the high pressure common rail injeciton or the VP44 injection pump with electonic injection. I know they changed over somewhere about that time. The VP44 electronic injection systems had issues with the fuel supply pressure, if the transfer pump failed or caused low pressure this could cause the injection pump to fail. I would take it to a Diesel specialist. You might also Google TDR (Turbo Diesel Register) They are a magazine and web site catering to the Dodge/Cummins, and someone there could help you. They have forums and on line bulletins, etc. Good luck.

Since you have to go out your way to get the red diesel in the first place, I would think you were obviously aware of why it exists and what it is used for.

What would have made you take it to the dealer?

I have a '05 Chevy 2500HD Duramax that I upgraded with the Banks Big Hoss Bundle to get 434Hp/750lb.ft & 19mph on the highway & the last thing I would due is take it to the dealer while I was running the Banks computer.

Lets make it real simple: red diesel in tank = no warranty & possible fines if turned in!

Not saying you can't do it, hell I even thought about it until now (thanks by the way), but I would have never tried to take it to the dealer.

Pink or red diesel also applies to boating purchases, being off road, for tax exemptions (depends on the state). To my uinderstanding there is no other difference in the fuel.

The dealer claim is perhaps supported by the dealerships as a way to avoid warranty work. If you were doing something illegal with your truck, fueling with tax exempt fuel then that probably voids the warranty.

However if they are willing to do the work, it's just they want you to pay for it, I owuld be suspicious of what is actually wrong with the truck. Since you have to pay for it, have it towed to another shop and have them look at it. I'll bet it is not an injector problem at all.

I had a shop once leave a spark plug wire to loosen a few days after I left the shop. When I brought it back because it was running rough, they said I needed some big $400 I don't remember what. When I went somewhere else they immediately found the loose spark plug wire and of course no charge.

As was said previously, 8 injectors don't just stop working. How does it sound when you crank it. Does it sound like it is getting fuel. Fuel filters are my first choice for why a diesel all of a sudden won't start. Then a leak, a loose nut, in the fuel supply system so it is sucking air.

Hey Sonav Sunsets - "19MPH on the highway?" That's got to be pretty slow, even in Arizona! No wonder you are trying to build that motor :) As someone who owns a farm with eleven diesel tractors, as well as a Dodge Cummins Diesel, I know the difference between the fuels well. As mentioned before, off road = higher sulfer content and lower cost. Get caught running it on the road = a big fine. The heating oil in this part of the country comes out of the same pump as the off-road farm diesel but is also taxed higher.

Good Catch.

Just kidding, of course! But, being a Dodge Cummins man, I couldn't resist :) To get back on topic, however, I don't know of any reason that the 'red' diesel would cause a diesel to conk out, unless it was contaminated, which applies to any diesel fuel. I know of people who do run the off road diesel on the street and none have had any problem.

No problem. I originally was looking at the Cummins, but chose the Duramax after talking to the people at Banks Engineering. Dodge just wasn't caught up with the others on the use of a variable turbocharger, so I chose the Chevy. In fact at the time, I was working for a company that manufactured the vane position sensor on the Duramax and pretty much every pressure sensor on the Cummins.

I doubt the red dye caused the problem, although I have heard issues with homemade biodiesel on the new injectors due to the fatty acids left behind. Because he said he turned off the engine first, then it wouldn't start, I almost think something electrical happened. But that should have easily been picked up by reading the codes at the dealer. That has been probably the only problem I have had with my truck. I have had the engine light come on 4 different times and all 4 have been as simple as disconnect a gang plug, reconnect, & reset codes. This of coarse was aftering downloading the electrical schematics off the internet, locating where the code errors (camshaft & crankshaft position errors, as well as +5v ground reference) were on the wiring and noticing that they all came together at the one gang plug.

I still don't understand how the fuel would take out the injectors, unless it just clogged them. If that is the case, can't they just be cleaned out?

One other thing... All this talk of diesel reminds me of the Naval motto: We will buy it as long as you can make it run on D3. Ships, fighters, sub-chasers, etc.. They all have to run on D3.

A few points:-

1) The red diesel should just work in any diesel engine with no problems, its really mainly a tax difference....even heating oil will run in Europe...but will give problems in winter though due to paraffin wax..

2) It is MOST unlikely that you bought the diesel from a gas station, they would be out of business in a very short time from the tax authorities, tantamount to suicide!

3) Most probably a previous owner of the vehicle used heating or agri-diesel.

4) It sounds like the car dealership has found a good way to offer a guarantee and then not to honour it if something happens, therefore I would suggest you contact theTax authorities asap and have your tank checked by them, its better coming from you first...if you are found later to have the dye in the tank, it will look mighty suspicious....

5) what if the dealership is lying and there is no red dye anyway?

6) The dyes used in Europe (in the USA too I guess) can be identified many thousands of gallons later and a long long time, you CANNOT get the tank clean enough without buying a new tank....and filler tube.

Not seeing the Tests done on the engine.

I suspect the lift pump went out and ruined the injectors and probably the injector pump also. Over a thousand dollars to fix.

Heating oil/ kerosene/ stove oil /jet fuel can all be ran in a diesel. Some will need the timing changed to be efficient or in certain jet fuels need some viscosity changes.

The dye is ran in the same engines on the farm. Not A Problem.

Tell the dealer you want to take it to a specialty shop to be fixed and if he is wrong he will be billed for the whole thing plus time and hassle. Put it in writing as an affidavit and have it notarized and give him a copy in person. If he some how was right you have paid less to have it fixed.

My Dad's lift pump almost did the same thing, at almost 200,000 miles, as what you have described but was caught in time to just have to replace the lift pump. The power started to drop and we asked our mechanic about it. He tested the pump and it cost us $460 instead of much more. Dad and I have both been Diesel mechanics But this guy is up to date on all the new tech.

MY OPINION they are trying to get out of fixing it, maybe even pocket your bill and charge Dodge for the work.

For what its worth Brad.

Some ideas may come from this spot.

http://www.thedieselpage.com/features/leefilt.htm

Nice link.

It would also appear that to save from further damage, its a good idea to have a filer installed between the components. It was mentioned on the link as:-

The warranty on the Autozone electric lift pump requires that a fuel filter be used between the fuel tank and the lift pump, and so I selected a Racor filter made to filter diesel fuel.

CamVacUSA reconditions diesel fuel ........www.CamVacUSA.com 1-877-822-FUEL

This is just a wild guess, but you work for them, right?

Vermin, i think CamVacUSA could help you out with all your diesel issuse! diesel has a shelf life! It can degrade 26% in 28 days! if you store diesel for that long or longer you are going to have problems! to find out more about diesel fuel degradation call me Pat @ 1-877-822-FUEL (3835). thanks

Well put.

I know here in the US, you have your #2 Clear diesel (everyday ULSD), #1 Clear Diesel (Artic Diesel), And Non-Road (Red Dye) diesel. Here, Non-Road diesel is, #2 Diesel, dyed red, with NO city, county, state, or federal highway road tax! Where I live, it is about 51 cents/gallon for all the taxes combined. Occasionally, it will be #2 LSD (500 PPM Sulfur, compared to 15PPM in ULSD), which pre-2007 trucks find quite yummy :)

During the aftermath of a hurricane, when there is short supply of Diesel, The Texas State Comptroller's office (Evil gas tax people) authorize non-road diesel to be pumped into on-road vehicles, as long as they get thier money!

Back in my Army days, was a truck driver, including fuel trucks. When we bought Diesel locally instead of JP-8 (Yes, your diesel vehicle will run fine off it.....which is nearly identical to JET A-1 jet fuel) we would buy 2000 gallons at a time of non-road red dye diesel, and run it in everything from generators to semi-trucks. No problems. *note....if you run JET A-1 or JET-A in your vehicle, add a PINT of automatic transmission fluid to your fuel tank per 25 gallons of fuel, BEFORE you put the fuel in the tank. Helps with lubricitity*

Really don't think just because it was dyed red, it was bad for the engine. You may have had contaminated fuel, or bootleg fuel (there are ways to remove the dye but with nasty chemicals). I have dumped the used motor oil from a tractor-trailer into the fuel tank. 5 gallons oil, into a 150 gallon tank, engine ran just fine. (actually helped out with the ULSD problems)

diesel fuel degrades with time 26% in 28 days your heavy hydrocarbon chains drop out (asphaltenes and paraffins) asphaltenes being your BTU's or power and paraffins being your lubricity. These need to be resuspended in the fuel column or you will run into problems call: CamVacUSA for all your fuel related problems 1-877-822-FUEL

call or visit:www.CamVacUSA.com 1-877-822-FUEL

In some provinces in canada (ie Alberta) it IS LEGAL to run purple diesel on the road as long as the vehicle is registered as a farm Vehicle. It is the exact same as regular diesel fuel but with a die and not taxed to death. the fines can be about 2000 dollars for using it in non registered vehicles but since the difference in price is expontntial as feul prices increase it makes it worth the risk of getting caught