Workshop Humidity

Before you start blaming the neighbors.... Sounds like your wall is below ground level.

Don't know what the covenants or zoning requirements. Or soil condition.

is there a swell in between your and the neighbors properties to carry the water away to drain?

You may have to put in drainage tile around your house. And maybe even seal you wall. What kind of wall, Is your wall poured concrete or cement block?

The other issues may be getting some air movement. But with what you described, is there a possibility that there's a water pipe in the area that's leaking.

This is where it gets interesting. The wall is of brick. The garage was freestanding when it was built, and I assume that the drainage was then OK, though there is no damp course. However the neighbours have encroached on the territory with a tarmac strip which allows water to pool against the wall. Unfortunately this all happened so long ago that under UK law they can acquire a "right of adverse possession", in other words the trespass is no longer a trespass. The further twist is that technically it will not be a trespass only if they register it with the Land Registry, which they have so far failed to do. My evil hope is that I can get away with digging the drainage myself before the registration takes place, but my solicitor is scared.

I reckon I can still require them to ensure drainage, but the question is whether there is some objective measure of the adequacy of the drainage.

"right of adverse possession",

yep, we have things similar here also... sounds like some diplomacy is in order.

I'll bring this up, we had similar issues with our neighbor and it could work with you.

Our neighbor called the town counsel and reported us. (Our neighbor blamed us for water in their basement) The inspector came over even though he couldn't find anything wrong with our property, he did mentioned, about our walking path, We had 18" x 18" stepping stones laid out 2 a breadth with about 2-1/2" pea gravel between. And he mentioned that if they were tight (without the 2-1/2" space in between, there may be a problem with zoning, as much as a stretch that could be he mentioned). but as it was, there was plenty of draining in between the stepping stones.

(my point is, if they have a tarmac, they may need to deal with the drainage)

Anyways.... back to our neighbors...

I then pointed out the reason the neighbor had water in the basement, Since they built the house, the ground settled around the house, so it had a negative grade. But the problem was, they had an egress basement window well, that was below ground level. And they had the eave down spout 4" from the window well. We had record amount of rain that summer and that is were the water came from.

The inspector just laugh. I told the inspector, that I would even help them fix it. But they wanted me to pay for the damages and the cost to have someone else fix it. I hate to see this happen to anyone, especially neighbors. And what the neighbors did was hired a lawyer to make it happen.

Well, all what happened was the neighbors just donated to the attorneys children's college fund.

good luck,

Even if you find a regulation regarding workplace humidity how are you going to apply it to what is in essence a home workroom? It’s your building.

If the damp is from the neighbours driveway covering the damp course of your garage then your first port of call is the council BC department.

Have fun, it took me three years to sort out the same problem.

BTW, don’t mention the machine tools to the council, there’s no knowing what connotations they could put on that.

50% Humidity (relative) is the specification for conditioning paper in the lab. Perhaps your moisture is due to dew point change over time, insulation may be a fix.

Well every neighborhood has to have that one guy who's an asshole....

Guess we know who this neighborhood's new one is and can be glad he's not ours.

Especially if he's going to sue people over soggy boxes and water on someone else's property without just correlations in what is obviously a natural high humidity environment that has moderate temperature swings.

You leave yourself wide open with comments like that!

How so?

If he moved in next to you and tried to sue you over his wet boxes because you had a puddle in your driveway what would you think he is?

Thank you for that. I have, of course, an independent report from a consultant structural engineer which confirms that the damage is due to water accumulating on the neighbour's tarmac. I do believe it is the neighbour's responsibility to deal with the consequences.

Lubrication, polish and oil are good for metallic surfaces, but, to the best of my knowledge, not so good for electronics.

Did the engineer mention anything about what you yourself can/should do to protect your own property from anything? Any decent civil engineer should have.

Blatant disregard for others is reasonable terms for legal action but one's own unwillingness to just man up and deal with what unexpected things life throws at him when getting a new home should be the first course of action. Especially so when you're the new guy on the block.

The more realistic issue is you truly don't know what the guy next door may be capable of in any number of ways morally, ethically, financially, intellectually or worse. For all you know he may be some unassuming extremely well off nobody who will at minimum do everything he can to financially bury you before it's over just to make for a life lesson you won't forget.

If I was you, I would be looking at pricing out a simple drain tile installation on that side of the property to take the water away before it gets to the dwelling foundation.

Doing that would likely take less than $100 in materials and a day or two to do yourself or a few $100 with the help of a contractor, a few $1000 if they have to excavate more than a foot or two, whereas a legal pissing match will take $10's to possibly 100's of thousands do dollars plus months to years to sort out all with the very real chance that in the end you get legally told to go pound sand and deal with the problem yourself anyways.

FYI 100' role of 3" perforated sock lined commercial drain tile that can be found a tany common home building center costs around $40 and can be put in yourself with a small chain trencher you rent or by hand with nothing more than a tiling spade in a day or two. Odds are getting permits will set you back more than the materials will.

He will have to do this regardless what comes after because he has the responsibility to minimise the damage.

If he just watches and sues he will have a hard stand when the judge asks: "So what have you done on your part to minimise the damage?"

It is in England, after all, so when a lawyer (solicitor) is involved in the original transaction it is already somewhat jinky.

Noting the courts there might be predisposed to hang a man as listen to him, (I have no truck with English courts now or ever, I am free, an American, and I owe no loyalty to the queen (or king), I think phph001 should most definitely take his neighbor to court. With luck one or both might be hung.

I have often seen where a good hard rain can intrude indoors when being driven by wind against a poorly sealed garage door. Where was all your stuff when this event took place? Sitting on the floor? Sounds (unfortunately) to me like you may be baying at the wrong fox, old chap.

If it were me (and it is not), I would inspect the lip of the door, the side seals if any, and the weather records, then consider my further actions to bolster rejection of water intrusion next rain, if rain is the case.

Is there a problem with the lay of the land such that your neighbor's tarmac is above the grade of your garage floor? Is there no gap between your wall, and the tarmac?

If no gap, could you convince the neighbor to allow you to trench a narrow channel, install a water barrier against your foundation, and add drainage, then put the tarmac restored to its previous condition? If the man is totally unreasonable, I suggest selling out and moving once again. It might save your life.

Any other options coming to mind right off are totally immoral, illegal, and risky.

In post #1 I described the distribution of damp in the wall: "I measured a humidity of 38% at that particular spot on the wall and 15-20% generally elsewhere."

Do you seriously think that rain coming in through a door could possibly hit a single spot on the wall? Without having an effect on the stuff between the door and the wall? Do you not accept my engineer's report that the damage was caused from the outside of the wall? Etc.

If the neighbours driveway was installed after the garage was built then it is the neighbours fault.

Exactly the situation I found myself with a house, a driveway was laid above the level of the house DPC and water got in to the house foundations. The job had been done on the cheap, the repairs cost the neighbour £1000’s

Thank you for that. At least one person has understood the point I was trying to make, namely that the garage would have been fit for repurposing were it not for the neighbour's actions. I have to be very careful (i.e.take lawyer's advice) before I personally commission a repair, because the land on which the repair takes place is disputed territory. In turn, the lawyer has to be careful advising me on the extent of the necessary repairs, for which we both depend on an expert report. Without that, the garage is going to stay damper than it should be.

So thank you all again for the expert advice on the appropriate humidity levels appropriate to a workshop. No thanks at all for the less informed comments on the rest of the proceedings.

Yeah, just chuck it in. Move. Let the blaggard have his driveway in peace.

Or you could just stage a riot, and accidentally light his house (with a torch), so harm done in England. Torch = flashlight.

"because the land on which the repair takes place is disputed territory."

Okay? This just raises a whole new set of questions about the legalities of what's going on in the larger picture here that could very well not play in your favor even more so than the drainage issue.

How did you manage to buy a house that obviously came with property without a solid well defined survey and description plus confirmed physical markers of said properly borders?

This just raises a whole new set of questions

This is not new information - I explained it in post #5. Unfortunately you have not been the only one not to read the problem thoroughly.

The solicitor through whom I bought the house did not advise me of the implications. Yes, you could say it was my fault for not understanding the law I pay my solicitor to interpret for me.

I guess where I am from those terms imply something differntly than you imply them to be. Around here property lines and their related survey points are well defined and have been for a very long time even if neighbors choose to not believe and adhere to their officially recorded locations.

If you want to get lawyers involved in the who's responsible for what thing getting those survey points relocated and your official property lines reestablished does a world of good on supporting your side to the issue.

I have friends who lost several acres of their family land simply due to a new neighbor having used the wrong points for establishing a fence line and they having been too lazy and cheap (~$500 and one trip to the county records office 25 miles away would have gotten things resolved in their favor.) to get a survey crew and copy of their recorded property layout brought into play to back up their rights to define what land was really who's.

But on the plus side the person who bought the adjacent land is selling it now and they can get their acreage back for about $6,000.

He relied on the same charlatans as he is now relying on again to sort out the mess they created....
This in an engineering forum.
Any engineer worth his salt would have fixed the problem.
Del

It happens - my land border is somewhat unclear, as the side land borders and the highway in front are not at a right angle, and only the back border has marker posts. A storm took down a large oak tree, presumably on the property line. I started cleaning up and the neighbor helped, but he paid for a survey to determine if this tree was truly straddling the line, or all mine. (his house was damaged - I suspect this was where he was headed) He lost - tree was mostly his. Note that OP.

"No thanks at all for the less informed comments on the rest of the proceedings."

a) We were only responding to your question.
b) If we are "less informed" that would be because you didn't inform us sufficiently.
c) You complain that the neighbours drive was built after the garage... maybe but you are expecting him to be psychic and predict that you were planning a change of use.
If you want to make a change... then you have to make the suitable changes.
If I want to change my house into a skyscraper, I can't sue the builder for not making the foundations suitable for a skyscraper!

I'm tempted to employer a lawyer to sue you for my loss of time and earnings responding to this thread.
Del (unsubscribes)

It does sound like the condensation is coming from elsewhere....

We run a dehumidifier in the basement of our summer place in Minn. It runs for months at a time and drains directly into the floor drain.

Without that we have standing water down there.

FFS... forget the lawsuit and fix the problem
Too many letigious twats about.

I've solved that problem a dozen times over with a days work and a few hundred dollar worth of materials.

Get your head out

I'd have knocked on the neighbours door and said.
"I'm getting some water collecting against my garage wall, do you mind if I cut in a 6" wide drainage channel which I'll cover with a grating and make good? I'm not sure who's responsibility it is as the boundary isn't well defined. I'm happy to do do the work and pay for it, but if you want to go 50/50 on the materials it would be appreciated"

Thank you. That was exactly my intention. Unfortunately the neighbours landlord merely looked at me and said "That will have to go through the lawyers".

Ah, now if you'd said that in the first place... that they started the whole lawyer thing... you'd have got a kinder hearing.
Del

Sorry, but I was not looking for a kinder hearing about lawyer problems. I was not looking for all the BS either. All I wanted was a simple answer to a simple question on humidity in a workshop, which had nothing to do with lawyers, nothing to do with boundaries, nothing to do with changing the use of a garage, and nothing to do with other people's self-importance. It was a purely technical question, which I was putting to a forum from which I hoped a wise answer would come. All the other aspects of the problem I can sort out for myself, thank you very much. May I respectfully suggest that if you do not know the answer to my specific question that you either say so or <unsubscribe>

In my opinion, a garage is basically "outside air", and as such will be subject to whatever the humidity is outside.

If it were me, I'd start work on the trench/drain project and if the neighbor wants to sue, let them prove that the property in dispute is actually theirs.

I recently moved house and found that my tools and equipment are significantly dryer and the edges on cutting tools don't need to be honed every time before I use them.

The previous shed was just in a "damp" locality. In the shade on clay soil with low strength concrete (Porous) floor that had no underslab membrane. (Actually three different sheds within 50m of each other.) It was just a damp place to be.

The new shed has high strength concrete flooring, laid on membrane and unshaded location with less than 200mm soil to bedrock.

I got the outcome of what was provided on the property at the time that I inspected it before purchase.

If everything was in place at the time you signed the contract, then get over it and move forward. Any problems are the result of you not performing adequate (due dilligence) inspection of the property and buildings for your intended use.

Your humidity measurements are less than useful. They do not represent the situation while your supposed deterioration happened. Air humidity would match ambient of the day once you open the door and have some ventilation in place and then you really need to discuss with experts the effect of temperature change on relative humidity due to temperature change.

My old sheds were replicated by my neighbours sheds, even though 300m away on another farm.

"Your humidity measurements are less than useful. They do not represent the situation while your supposed deterioration happened."

I beg to suggest that from down under you cannot have viewed the temporal relationship between the downpour which started this whole story and the measurement of humidity in the wall. I made the measurements immediately after the downpour, found one small area which was much damper than the rest, and found that it corresponded exactly with the puddle on the outside.

"Any problems are the result of you not performing adequate (due dilligence) inspection of the property"

I beg to suggest that the primary problem is the neighbour's allowing water to accumulate instead of drain. I do not believe I should have run a hosepipe over the walls of the garage before signing the contract.

First question, were these issues disclosed by the previous owner or realtor? If not, I would start with them. They are required to inform you of the moisture issue, and the encroachment by neighbor's drive.

I have now counted 29 replies to my (fairly simple, I thought) question "What could I reasonably expect as a specification for maximum humidity in the wall or in the air?". Of those just 3 have offered me some potentially useful numbers:

#7: "anything below 65% RH is good" - I assume this is atmospheric though I would appreciate confirmation that this does not relate to the wall.

#8: '50% RH was considered "normal" workplace humidity when I worked in a normal workplace... Relative humidity levels above 70% may lead to the development of condensation on surfaces and within the interior of equipment'. (Note from my first post that i did have to dry several items out).

#34: "50% Humidity (relative) is the specification for conditioning paper in the lab."

I am grateful for those responses, and can only assume that some the authors of the remainder were just going through the menopause.

That's enough Sheldon....

From your response to my #8, "(Note from my first post that i did have to dry several items out) , If you have to dry several items out from a room where the highest level of humidity recorded was 38% it should have been intuitively obvious that air born moisture would not cause water saturation of the items. That had to come from liquid water, perhaps coming through the wall.

But, that wasn't the question.

Your temporary solution may be found in #11.

Good Luck.

You are the one who mentioned "lawsuit" as well as humidity in your post, which obviously sounded many alarm bells - we have experience there and thought we best warn you about the dangers of such. Sorry - next time I'll let you find out the hard way how boundary line disputes, and natural occurrences crossing such lines may turn out. Your problem is an easy fix without consulting an engineering group. Does it even matter what the humidity measures if you have obvious damage from moisture? That alone should scream at you - I HAVE A WATER PROBLEM. What else would it be - Gremlins spraying you tools at night? So now seal the darn walls and leave the neighbor alone.

Thank you for your assessment. I do wonder why I need a lawyer when all these smarter people are around.

1. The neighbour has encroached on my territory.

2. The neighbour's building work has allowed water to accumulate and soak into the wall from the outside.

3. It follows from 2 that an effective repair must take place on the outside, and from 1 that the neighbour is responsible for the damage.

4. It follows from 3 that the neighbour has to be involved. Even if I do the work myself I still have to access the land he has appropriated.

5. Since there is nothing wrong with the building of the wall, the remedy must lie in the neighbour's appropriated territory. Since you know everything better than I do, I would be grateful if you could explain how this could be achieved without entering the neighbour's territory. Are you suggesting that he should bond the entire length of the wall? Are you suggesting that I should then give up my right to inspect the external surface of that wall without permission from my neighbour?

A smart answer please, since you insist on continuing the matter beyond its bed-time.

Don't try writing software, if that is your idea of a logical thread of reasoning.
I believe a neighbour has to allow "reasonable access" for you to work on your property. If the problem is on your property, you are certainly entitled to fix it.

Don't try giving advice about the law, unless you're qualified.

Believing something won't get you anywhere in court.

The advice was by way of a suggestion. I could have stated it as fact but since I can't actually quote a statute I refrained from doing so.

Here's my take including the laws specific to my area only!

New construction must not encroach in any easements or right-of-ways. In my municipality, the standard easement is 8' from the sides. Many years ago it was such that you couldn't let rainwater runoff past your property line. Quite a change in 80 years.

Any variance should be filed with the county/city for future reference. Actually, any construction at all should be filed. I say 'should be' because we all know that records are sometimes misplaced, lost, or not filed at all.

Similar situation, I am thinking to put a small 'drive-off' parking area for my work car. I will need to talk to the neighbors first and the city second (if at all). They are below my grade, so for any changes I will need to reassure them that there will be minimal runoff. It will be within the easement, so they can say easily tell me no.

That all being said, in my state/county/city there should have been a variance filed with local authorities and agreed to before anything would be put within 8' of anyone's property. Perhaps they 'snuck' the driveway in while the house was empty? If the solicitor knew it was questionable, then it may be illegal. We use real-estate agents here and I have had one tell me lies, fortunately I caught her on every one. It would be nice if you get your property description with measurements and mark it out, or hire it done. In my area, the legal description usually stands.

In rural areas, if a treeline/fence line/etc, has been used as a boundary for a certain amount of years (50?) and was never disputed, it then becomes the legal boundary.

Many words here, but maybe this will give you some other ideas on how to approach your problems. Good fences build good neighbors.

This is disingenuous!
I quote from your original post:-

"The offending wall was very damp because water had accumulated on my neighbour's drive without draining away, so an interesting lawsuit is about to start"
This invites comment... had you not included it you wouldn't have got the adverse comments.
Del

OK, we're up to two <unsubscribes>.

Anybody want to make it three?

Anybody have any bets on weather or not either of them have REALLY unsubscribed.

I bet $1,000,000.00 USD that Del has not!

I must admit I was thinking of <unsubscribe> myself, but I got something useful at #48. My luck may change.

Yes I he has...
I bet you were peeking... and I he only bets with Quatloos
Del
Kris

Actually I did unsubscribe, but still looked at the thread now and then... So nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah...
Del

Careful examination of Item #27 of the FAQs How do I subscribe to a discussion? states: "Once a member declares that they are <unsubscribing> it is considered bad form to re-enter an unsubscribed thread without asking "Mother, may I re-enter" said aforementioned unsubscribed thread before actual participation in said aforementioned unsubscribed thread.

Ah! But the thing is the only truly bad etiquette is to point out someone's bad etiquette!
Del

No, that's covered in "What are the rules and responsibilities of a CR4 member?"

Impossible.. You do you teach the good if you can't acknowledge the bad.

Unless your goal is to create an arse

..What's the topic again?

when it comes to experience,

"ones worse experience, is usually their best... but it may not seem that way at the time." phoenix911

We've noticed.

Haven't you heard? Al Gore sold the internet.

No. No one ever tells me anything relevant or useful. Who'd he sell it to and for how much? Maybe I wanted to buy it.

It's rather why I have become a snarkie pain in the ass.

I want knowledge and answers that make sense, dammit!

From the mother of all ignorant, ultra conservative propaganda machines:

Obama's Internet Endangerment - Breitbart

One has to stop focusing on one side (Liberal/conservative) of the media, I've found that they all suck and turns out to be BS.

We have no reliable media outlet.... unless you go rogue. Then is so far out, one has to wait until it finally surfaces to find out it's actually true, and they have everything to lose if caught.

Pick a current media topic. Listen or look it up on the BBC. Then read about it on China Daily, or other offshore media club. Can be quite entertaining.

I'm not saying that other media outlets aren't biased or propagandized; indeed they are. I just find it interesting on how other country's media views differs from ours on the same topics. Just heard the BBC state this morning (yesterday?) that the US election is more like reality TV than a political process.

YMMV

I like the BBC.

My point was that the internet is changing ownership.

Our politics is more like Reality TV, That's not too far from the truth.

In the past, I tend to watch BBC I thought it gave a good outside view on what's going on.

Now, I'm distrustful of any news media.

As far as our politics, who ever is going to TRY to clean it up, is going to get dirty. Probably more so than the career politicians.

We have a terrible mess, for sure!

It all depends on who is holding the bucket of dirt. He who dodges the dirt wins.

"As far as our politics, who ever is going to TRY to clean it up, is going to get dirty. Probably more so than the career politicians."

Too true. Too many will focus on their perceived issues with the teardown, and thusly go ape shyte over that, that is needed to find and fix the real problem than over the real problem and its source itself or the fact that the problem is fixed in the end.

My comments in the, Open-Diff-What-Car-Are-You-Constantly-Defending, thread about fixing my AC tractor that I posted in another forum are a perfect example of that.

In the other forum not one single person said a bad word about the real problem being fixed but cutting a hole in a non critical part of the machine to get to the real problem was such an 'insult and assault on common decency' that I got me kicked out of the forum!

I find it very similar to how certain people are wound tight over the FBI reopening their questionable emails case. The fuss isn't about the highly questionable emails and who did what with them potentially breaking federal laws despite the fact it should be.

It's about the guys who did their job and investigating likely criminal actions done by a public figure or group of public figures.

Shame on them for doing what their jobs required them to do when it needed to be done. Shame.

Arm chair mechanics... We had a few things like that when we worked on our tractors... our neighbor were like that... they would sent their machinery to the dealer for maintenance no matter how minor.

We had a small 454 International that a seal went out and oil would drip on the ceramic clutch that would burn out.

Some of the repair one had to use ones ingenuity (or I'm loss for the word) but to make work with what you have. Resourceful maybe....

Oliver 1650 Over/under Drive, We used a string wrapped around a shaft to install it, it had to slip into place and the shaft had to turn. The local White dealer (Oliver) dealer found out that's how we did it, and he started doing it.

AC WD 45, lining the spline shaft after we over hauled the engine trying to install it.... This sat in our shop for over a week, everyone gave up on it, I was about 12-14 years old, and every chance I got I went in to try it. Then one time after the the evening milking about 7:00 I got it, and finished it, I came in around 10:00 and told my dad, I final got it.

to name a few. we always were reluctant ^{(reluctant being was to make sure we did it right as to not junk up or cobble it)} to cut holes in but if there was no other way. I always say it as "Its your tractor". And our reluctance was to make sure we did it right.

As far as the politics, I think most felt they were out of the woods, and by reopening it there is a worry that its going to hit close to home this time.

Yea I don't have much tolerance for arm chair anything any more.

I don't mind concerned speculation by any means but outright attacking people for thinking of a different way to approach something and then actually trying it is wrong to me.

But then I can see where it's can be a rather hard rub to some people egos if they did something the hard expensive way multiple times over only to in the end, once it's too late for them to ever need the fix again, find out there was a bonehead simple and cheap way to solve the problem and with simple common items all along!

Although that should not surprise me being the general low end 'don't think for yourself' mentality so many have now.

A person who is not afraid to think and do could be a pretty big threat to those who are so terrified of 'what if' that they can no longer bring themselves to do either. It's a dynamic unknown that can't be reduced down to fit their 'what if' box.

Amen to that! Too bad the scales of justice are supposed to be even for all manner of people, not tipped beyond recognition.

Last time I checked, we don't have any royalty in the United States. Equal justice under the law is what our constitution is supposed to guarantee, not inhibit. Equal sentences for equal crimes, regardless of supposed "standing" within any political party.

The day when we have totally abandoned the rule of law in this country is the day it will begin crashing down all around, and something better will have to be rebuilt in its place. The elitists should take notice, and be afraid, be very afraid, because from time to time in the course of human events to preserve the Republic, it is necessary that the blood of tyrants be spilled and wash away with the blood of Patriots.

I think BBC nailed it, and it is reality (as ugly as it gets). The only thing missing (oh wait he made a recent appearance for HRC) is Gore. At least we don't have a politician whose name is Blood, then Blood and Gore would be running on the ketchup ticket.

Why go rogue, when you can go commando?

Go commando,... Hey that's more than we need to know!

I thought wifey told me a couple weeks ago, the Internet is now in the hands of the Blue Helmeted Crusaders of the UN.

That means no more midgets on a bus. Also a lot less cat videos.

TIP OF THE WEEK: "Don't feed tomatoes, or any other species of the nightshade family to a parrot, or really any other bird, including chickens, unless you plan on losing them to gastric ulcer/hemorrhage.

The alkaloids (not the acids) are the culprit. These birds thrive while consuming acidic berries as strawberries, Kiwi, and blueberries. Birds in the wild never consume any of the nightshade varieties. Maybe we should give up eating rotten green tomatoes too.

Well stated, O Mighty Snark!

Should they not also have to bow to LynDoor Industries door, and spin around three times, and click their heels? Kansas never had it so good.

You tinker monkey ! Don't bank on me not finding enough space to swing you by the tail !!

Wasn't me it was Hilary Clinton using my account...
Del

She does owe Trump one after his timing about the email stuff, but I think she's (marginally) more subtle.

Nobody on Brit TV seems able to explain how Americans can recast their vote. There must be a reason for such a mechanism, but it escapes me. Given Mr Trump's record and, I think it was a Florida result that caused problems before, the lawyers will have a recount field day. Oops, I digress, but things may get rather humid.

I had been thinking of repainting, so if not averse to dipping your head in paint......

Interesting enough, the crazy sounding conspiracies that Trump claimed about the DNC and Clinton, turned out to be true and actually was happening.

As an American, I believe this country's politicians has to have more of the common man involved, but the career politicians makes that hard.

Apparently, you Brits can't make your minds up completely to go ahead with Brexit, now that the Brussels government is supposedly requiring Britain to have a vote in Parliament to leave the EU. Since when does Britannia beg permission of anyone? Really? That was the BP that needed to vote, correct?

Don't worry about our political affairs on this side of the pond, we will manage quite well without any help (or interference), even if it requires one more civil war.

The blue-helmeted, jack-booted thugs of the UN need also keep themselves clear of our business. The slogan on the early coinage here in the U.S.A. had a slogan on it that clearly states the idea: "Mind Your Business".

If anyone ever wants to see the full might of the United States of America, just try meddling in our business, invade, or otherwise molest our general welfare, peace, or tranquility, and watch in horror as we unite. Be afraid, be very afraid.

Brits make our minds up ? LOL. 2 Brits cannot get thru a door, 'after you, old chap' can go on for hours.

Far be it from me to suggest anything about American politics, it's an admirable trait that you go bat when anybody, especially government, tries to dictate how you should live your lives. We could do with more of that gumption over here. No criticism was intended. You seem a bit harsh on the UN, but the road to hell is, as the saying goes, paved with good intentions. Isolationist doctrine does not seem to work in history, I see no harm in an observational interest. I'm way off topic, but can anybody give me a link as to how the recast vote works ? I'll shaddup on the topic - my bad for having digressed. If that's OK with you.

You are a good chap, credit due, credit given!

Re-voting is only legal in six of the States. I can tell you it is not legal here in Texas. In Texas, we have legally assumed that someone who is competent to vote, and has the right to (not an active felon, or alien), can and should find out who the candidates are and what they stand for ahead of time, even if it is as rudimentary as figuring who carries an (R), or (D) next to their name.

We have what is known as early voting in every State, so far as I am aware, maybe not in District of Columbia, because they do everything butt first (a__ backward) over there. In a State where re-voting is legal, (thus not a felony) one must present themselves to the polling place in person on the actual designated election day, and request a special ballot (for special people), wherein one can in fact, re-cast their vote, and any previous ballot they cast is then null and void.

Clear as mud? Yeah.

Cheers.

It's still utterly bewildering. Brits do like to debate alternate voting systems (first past the post/second alternative etc), but going back later to change ones mind has never come up. Even ouir 'News Anchors' have not a clue about second, later vote. I watched one the other dsay who had no idea, neither had the senior ministor she was talking to.

I did say I'd shut up, but...Trump seems to have unleashed an attack after some people had voted, not knowing the email/server update. I don't know if that is right or wrong, but I suspect many people will be unhappy with the result. Somebody will ask for a recount.

The only thing I can observe is that decisive government works best. You can walk on the left side of the road, or the right, but walk in the middle and you get splattered.

I don't believe the idea of changing one's mind came into play until well after women got the suffrage rights here. I hope you catch my drift.

About the left and right, or riding the middle, we have plenty of politicians who straddle a splintery fence this year. The only ones I see having a sore time of it are the ones in the middle. Make up your minds, be left, be right, but for God's sakes move off the middle ground. To the left lies certain destruction, pain, and misery.

To the right lives an uncertain future, yet one that holds the promise of a new dawn.

In the middle lies, lies, and more lies.

Abraham Lincoln said this:

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be. And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years."

"The Voting Rights Act, signed into law by President Lyndon Johnson (1908-73) on August 6, 1965, aimed to overcome legal barriers at the state and local levels that prevented African Americans from exercising their right to vote under the 15th Amendment (1870) to the Constitution of the United States. The act significantly widened the franchise and is considered among the most far-reaching pieces of civil rights legislation in U.S. history."

This law has been effectively gutted in order to disenfranchise millions of eligible voters by intimidation and denial of their constitutional rights.

That has been done by the "Rs" to keep the "Ds" from voting, and nothing more, by the Voting Rights Gutting Act of 2015.

That's about the ONLY thing the Rs have done in the past 10 years!

This country is doomed!

Thank you. lyn. Ive no idea what will happen, but I take a huge interest. I appreciate all comments by American people. The result will affect us all.

Sorry to our OP - cr4 does tend to go a bit off topic at times. Take it as a compliment. People do not digress unless they like a poster and wish them to enter into the general chat.

I can truly say that "these are the times that try men's souls".

Thomas Paine: American Crisis - USHistory.org

These are the most divisive, uncivil times I have ever witnessed in my 69 years on the planet.

My West Texas friend and I differ on much about this election, but agree that change is needed, especially Congress. We need term limits for ALL politicians!

I am truly concerned about this country and its future.

Cheers!

This is where we reach across the aisle, handshake, and go out for a weekend beer. Cheers old brother!

If we wish to find the true heart of America, we need look no further than the New England ministers of the gospel during the Revolution. There are words of truth there for all men, for all ages, and for all the ages.

This election remains the choice between two weevils. Choose the lesser of the weevils, not the one that will keep us embroiled in corrupt stealing of our nation's information, money, and hard-earned freedoms.

That is my last comment on the matter.

That is what I generally call a great large steaming pile of stinking manure.

Democrats always seem willing to rant about denying some the right to vote, especially when the someone should not even be in our country to begin with (are here without legal papers, surreptitiously claiming to be citizens when they are neither citizens nor are a help to our people. Is that the only people you can convince to vote for your platform? I wonder why...

Why is it everything you people stand for has to be done in the dark?

Voting is like driving, there is no guarantee you will arrive at your destination, especially if intoxicated.

[blockquote from lyn]

"The Voting Rights Act, signed into law by President Lyndon Johnson (1908-73) on August 6, 1965, aimed to overcome legal barriers at the state and local levels that prevented African Americans from exercising their right to vote under the 15th Amendment (1870) to the Constitution of the United States. The act significantly widened the franchise and is considered among the most far-reaching pieces of civil rights legislation in U.S. history."

This law has been effectively gutted in order to disenfranchise millions of eligible voters by intimidation and denial of their constitutional rights.

[end blockquote]

[blockquote from James Sewart]

Democrats always seem willing to rant about denying some the right to vote, especially when the someone should not even be in our country to begin with (are here without legal papers, surreptitiously claiming to be citizens when they are neither citizens nor are a help to our people. Is that the only people you can convince to vote for your platform? I wonder why...

[end blockquote]

How do you get from "overcome legal barriers at the state and local levels that prevented African Americans from exercising their right to vote under the 15th Amendment" to "Democrats always seem willing to rant about denying some the right to vote, especially when the someone should not even be in our country to begin with (are here without legal papers, surreptitiously claiming to be citizens when they are neither citizens nor are a help to our people." ? There is a serious gap in your chain of logic to consider African Americans as 'people who should not even be in our country in the first place.'

The last time I checked, nobody was trying to get illegal aliens to register and vote, we don't even have the dead in Graceland Cemetery turning up to vote straight democrat ticket by absentee ballot, despite the delicious irony of George Pullman voting post mortem for the guys he would have gladly run over with a train while he was living.

What I am seeing is states severely gerymandered to favor Republicans, and a lot of effort put in to suppress the African American and Latino American vote, two groups that traditionally vote Democrat in federal elections. I'm seeing one candidate encouraging persons untrained in the details of the electoral process to show up at the polling places, unannounced, uninvited, and armed, as 'poll watchers.' I'm seeing a candidate threatening to lock up his opponent if he wins, and in the same debate, refuse to state that he will accept the results of the election if he loses. Even after the debate moderator practically coaches him on the proper answer and repeats the question, he 'double down's on his previous refusal to state that he will accept a loss.

The Republican party looks like it is close to tearing itself apart, and that's a good thing. From the debris, the Republicans can rebuilt into a better party, a stronger party, a party without all the racist, sexist, homophobic baggage they've been parading about this election season. Let those ex-republicans form their own party, the "Rich Straight White Guys Only" party, and leave the 'true' Republicans rebuild into a party of actual fiscal responsibility and small, efficient, functional government. That would be a Republican party that would make me seriously agonize over which side deserves my vote more on election day.

Well, I was not really thinking about African Americans, or really any this or that American. I was thinking more about the flux of illegal aliens streaming over our border to vote (illegally) for HRC, and I already know the fix is in.

Hell, maybe African Americans would appreciate the right to change their vote in every state. I have problems with people blanket stating that Republicans have tried to deny these folks the ability to vote. Last I recall, it was Democrats in the old south that wanted to keep all the folks down on the farm plantation.

Do you deny that?

"Last I recall, it was Democrats in the old south that wanted to keep all the folks down on the farm plantation."

And after Lyndon B Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act into law, those 'old south Democrats became 'Dixiecrats,' reviving the old Confederate battle flag from the dustbin of history, and voting Republican in the federal elections, but voting 'Dixiecrat' at the state level. Most of the Dixiecrats later became Republicans, due in a big part to Nixon's Southern Strategy, with a few (mainly in Florida) becoming DINOs (Democrat in Name Only), registering as Democrat because that's the family tradition, but voting Republican every election.

Florida's registration picture changed a lot over the past two years. Due to the 'clown car' Republican Primary (No offense intended, I am merely trying to paint a visual picture of how crowded the primary was, the GOP couldn't even fit all the candidates in the same debate and had to break it down into "A-listers" and "B-listers" with separate debate stages for each) it looks like many DINOs registered as Republican because the primaries were too important to sit out this election cycle.

It's actually a bit annoying when the post Civil Rights Act Southern Republicans keep using the pre Civil Rights Act Southern Democrats to defame modern democrats. Everyone knows its a weak strawman argument. It's like being one of two people in an elevator, farting, and then blaming the other guy.

Bottom line, The DNC sold the Bottle Imp of racism to be rid of it, and the RNC bought it cheap. The Racist Southern Democrats became the Racist Southern Republicans. That is why I'm hoping that this election cycle will cause the breakup of the GOP, so that they can reform while excluding the 'deplorable' elements they courted while following Nixon's plan. That way the GOP can 'sell the Bottle Imp' to the Crazy Racist Sexist Homophobic Party for one penny.

This country needs two functioning parties to thrive. Right now, between the Democrats and the Republicans, we've got maybe 3/4-7/8 of one.

Notes:

For those unfamiliar with the story of the bottle imp, the imp has three rules:

1. While you own the Imp, you enjoy earthly prosperity, but if you die while owning it, the Imp drags you straight to hell, regardless of your deeds or faith.
2. You cannot give the Imp away, you can only sell it, and you must reveal the Imp's rules before the sale is final.
3. You can only sell the bottle for LESS than you bought it. and the price must be a real value of real currency. i.e.: You can't sell it for a half-cent, because that is not a real coin, and you cannot sell it for 'a smile.' Bitcoins and other cryptocurrency, while not even a concept when the story originated, are also invalid. It needs to be a hard currency that is only finitely divisible, so someone will be stuck unable to sell it because there is no 'less than' price.

Mainly all this is just a pain in the arse, and another way of getting away (by ya'll) with name calling. I have at least at much love in my heart, maybe more than you do, so u just stop it with the hating.

Flyers inserted into a San Diego Catholic church’s newsletter told its members they would go to hell if they voted for Democrats, according to a report.

The bulletin of the Immaculate Conception Catholic Church has included two warnings in the past month invoking eternal damnation and calling Hillary Clinton a Satanic instrument, the San Diego Union-Tribune reported.