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coffee-maker

08/12/2007 11:45 PM

Pleas dont ask why I want to know. A 3 ft dia pipe 50ft long with an elbow at one end and a 3ft extention tapering down the 3ft dia to 1ft dia. Install electrical heaters into the 3 ft section. Submerge it vertically into a body of water ( elbow section on top)and heat the water in the 3 ft section to 100 C or 212 F or eaven higher . What will happen ??

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#1

Re: coffee-maker

08/13/2007 2:06 AM

so..why do you want to know?

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#2

Re: coffee-maker

08/13/2007 2:58 AM

Enough coffee (or tea for that matter) to satisfy CR4 needs?

Please supply more info.

Number and size of the heater elements?

Temperature of the water?

Size of the reservoir?

concentric or eccentric reducer?

90 or 45 degree elbow? (and radius )

Where are the elements?

In the 3' length tapered section or in the 3' diameter x 50' section ?

Is the 1' opening open or closed?

Bottom open or closed?

Contraption anchored or free floating?

guess:

during heating process the warmed water will rise and will be expelled out of the nozzle. The water will be replaced by water from below and from flow at the bottom of the 1' nozzle.

Water is an insulator and the unheated water will stay cold.

Approaching 100 deg steam bubbles will form on the last element but will collapse soon. The convection currents will increase.

Boiling: The boiling point may not be reached before the whole reservoir is heated.

Conclusion.

Rather catch the fish and prepare them in a pot, pan or open fire.

(You must try wrapping them in tinfoil or mud and heat on an open flame)

A kettle will use less electricity per cup.

The energy of the outflowing water will be much less than energy used.

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#6
In reply to #2

Re: coffee-maker

08/13/2007 2:33 PM

LET ME BE MORE SPECIFIC

contraption , free floating and let say 50ft under the surface of the ocean

both ends are open

normal 90 deg elbow

heating elements are in the horizontal 3 ft straight section ,this section is also insulated

from there it tapers dow to the 1ft dia concentric reducer

temperatur of the water, various places in the ocean

number of heater elements, whatever it takes to rais the temperatur to 100 C or 212F

since the difference in pressure from bottom to top is so great , the water can not go back down, so what would be the force at the 1 ft dia nozzle

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#14
In reply to #6

Re: coffee-maker

08/14/2007 4:30 PM

" so what would be the force at the 1 ft dia nozzle"

Ziltch, Zero, Nothing. It is stated as being an open pipe. Makes little if any difference whether elbow and 3' horizontal with heaters is at upper or lower end. Any hot water will leave by convection as fast as it is heated. Besides all that you don't want to receive the electric bill for operating those heaters over 15 or 20 minutes! ...... Back to the drawing board?

"Pleas dont ask why I want to know."

Oh! But. 'I want to know.'

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#3

Re: coffee-maker

08/13/2007 3:47 AM

The water will get hot...

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#4

Re: coffee-maker

08/13/2007 4:22 AM

Well, it won't get much hotter than 100degC/212degF, because at 1 atmosphere absolute pressure the water will be boiling. Take the contraption up to La Raya in the Andes, and the boiling temperature will be lower because of the lower air pressure at that altitude (assuming one can find somewhere to plug it in).

Assuming both ends of the pipe are open, a convection current will be set up, with the water in the heated section rising due to the greater buoyancy at higher temperatures. The velocity will be higher at the 1ft diameter end and the flow will probably be turbulent (Reynolds Number >2300).

As the water continues to boil, the concentration of dissolved substances will increase as steam is released from the system. At critical concentrations, solids will begin to precipitate out onto the surfaces of the heating elements, partly insulating them and causing them to run hotter; in the limit the elements will run hot enough to fail, as the water level drops and more of the elements are exposed to air, which is a far better insulator. Any dissolved air, carbon dioxide and other volatile species will be driven off with the steam, and the taste of the water will change, as will its pH. Most biological materials in the water will die, being unable to withstand the higher temperatures.

The electricity bill will increase.

Many substances are more soluble at higher temperatures, or will tend to leach better into solution or suspension. Coffee solids are a good example. Some engineers prefer tea.

Where is this one going?

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#5

Re: coffee-maker

08/13/2007 5:28 AM

A visit from Death By Safety?

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#7

Re: coffee-maker

08/14/2007 12:26 AM

Re: coffee-maker

I guess this looks like a big coffee percolator or a coffee extractor. Fill it up with R & G coffee and brew a lot of coffee. With that size of coffee maker, you can load as much as 8,835 lbs of roast and ground coffee beans. How many cups would that make?

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#10
In reply to #7

Re: coffee-maker

08/14/2007 8:37 AM

It should make enough cups of coffee to get me through today's meetings!

Who am I kidding. There isn't enough coffee in the world for that.

Is this some kind of thinking-outside-the-box propulsion system?

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#18
In reply to #10

Re: coffee-maker

08/15/2007 12:00 AM

Nate you are the only one that can think outside the box. The pressure difference from the top to the bothom of the 50ft pipe is the same ,little below the surface or 1000 ft, note I say the difference . for the sake of argument I close the end of the heating element section and turn on the heater(s). Pressure should develop what it is at the end of the 50 ft below the elbow.now lets open a valve so the water will flow toward the 1 ft opening ( lower pressure) and will be replaced by the 50ft pipe.I know insulating the heating tank and calculating the strengh is taken care of. will water flow out the 1 ft nozzle. This is the end of the Coffee-Maker discussion, and if you like to know, this is the principle of a coffe percolater

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#8

Re: coffee-maker

08/14/2007 2:43 AM

I rekon the whole damn lot, coffee tea whatever will rotate about the axis from the reaction to the 1ft outlet. Also you are going to need one hell of a lot of heating.

Good luck

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#9

Re: coffee-maker

08/14/2007 2:45 AM

Can someone wke me up when this 'puzzle' is done and let me know if there is or was any point to it?

Grumpy Del

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: coffee-maker

08/14/2007 10:22 AM

Dear felix degrumpus, (Del)

If we run enough water through this, and concentrate &deposit enough minerals on it, then we can reclaim them. at$800 gold, and concentration to ppm from 50 PPtrillion levels, It might just pay for the electricity (if it weren't for those pesky thermal losses) and the insurance on the boat, and the health care for the crew, and the guns to shoot potential hijackers. Of course, there are other minerals available too, Uranium, all kinds of stuff. If we locate this where there is already PPBillion or PPMillion levels, all the better

Heres some data:

Seawater contains gold in solution. The English chemist, S. Sonstadt, was the first to definitely establish its presence in 1872. Even today, though, precise measurements of its concentration are highly controversial. Owing to gold's extreme dilution, many factors confound its experimental measurement, such as the necessity for ultra pure reagents, gold's affinity for and absorption into the walls of the experimental glassware, and gold's tendency to precipitate out of solution during transportation or preservation (Burk 1989). Though some of the earlier investigations, prior to 1960, have yielded wildly varied values, as high as 4000 ppt (parts per trillion) (Putman 1953), subsequent efforts have been more consistent. When considering only the data gathered since 1980, reported values for the concentration of gold in seawater have ranged from 5 to 50 ppt (Lucas 1985), with the average concentration at about 13 ppt. Some of the highest concentrations recently reported have come from seawater samples taken from the Bering Sea at 50 ppt (Pashkova 1988).

Gold ores have also been located along the mid-ocean ridges of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. One such deposit was found in association with the TAG hydrothermal field at 26o North latitude on the mid-Atlantic Ridge at the 3,670 meter water depth (Herzig 1991). The gold ores in these locations are associated with sulfide deposits formed by hydrothermal vents. These vents occur when the spreading seafloor allows water to percolate down in the crustal rocks and reach hot regions deep beneath the seafloor. The heated seawater dissolves mineral in much higher concentrations than can occur in cold water. From the spreading crustal plates the water dissolves various mineral and metals, such as sulfur, iron, copper, among others. Gold and silver are also dissolved but in very small concentrations. From samples of these hot solutions taken from the Sea Cliff hydrothermal field, on the northern Gorda Ridge, gold concentration ranges between 1 and 11ppb, and silver between 14 and 200 ppb (Zierenberg 1990). Temperatures of these solutions range from 100 to 350 deg C. Upon reaching the cold seafloor waters, much of the dissolved minerals and metals precipitate out of solution forming chimney-like vent structures. These chimneys build up and eventually fall over to form again. After enough time has passed, huge mounds of these structures form, being predominantly composed of iron and sulfide compounds. From the samples taken, gold concentrations ranged from 0.06 to 28.40 ppm. Similar, but ancient, sulfide deposits can be found in Australia, Cypress, and elsewhere. Many of these continental deposits have been commercially mined, but it was assumed that the recent oceanic deposits would not likely be of commercial grade because the evidence suggests that the continental deposits have gone through secondary concentration of the gold when ground water or surface weathering dissolves away much of the sulfide and iron matrix, leaving the deposits gold enriched (Herzig 1991). Though most of the mid-Atlantic Ridge sulfide deposits are of the lower grades that correlate to the virgin continental deposits, some, at least, appear to have undergone secondary concentration. It is theorized that this secondary concentration of gold occurs after the initial oxidation of the sulfide assemblages (0.8 to 5.5 ppm Au) and the percolation of the hydrothermal solutions redissolve and then redeposit the gold as pure native metal (at up to 23.0 ppm Au) (Herzig 1988). The discovery of this secondary concentration occurring at the bottom of the seas is important since geologists had previously assumed that sulfide gold ore deposits located on the continental plates would have had to have been exposed to weathering or ground water to be concentrated. It is now apparent that sulfide gold ore deposits may be found in previously unexplored regions. Much about the process of precipitation of gold and other metals from these solutions is unknown, however, it is believed that some sulfur-oxidizing bacteria of the genera Beggiatoa, Thiothrix or Thiovulum play an active role in this precipitation (Zierenberg 1990).

Taken from :http://www.goldfever.com/gold_sea.htm
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#13
In reply to #11

Re: coffee-maker

08/14/2007 11:16 AM

Yeee Haw..there's gold in them thar seas!

This whole thread reminds me of the old schoolboy joke.

What's brown, hairy and swims underwater?

.

..

...

A gorilla with an aqualung...

Just what you need to service this contraption!

Del

(PS I don't consider this 'off topic' I think the whole topic is off topic!)

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#12

Re: coffee-maker

08/14/2007 10:22 AM

Without any valves or checks to control flow through the pipe, nothing. As the water is heated, it become bouyant and will begin flowing through your device. Until the entire pond this pie is submerged in is warmed up, you will not get to 212 degree F. What kind of control valves will this 50'long x 3' dia have? How is this pipe insulated from the surrounding water? Will you have a safety relif valve on the pipe? Will you have a safety relief on your bladder after consuming this much coffee, tea, or whatever? As the newspaper ad says "Enquiring minds want to know."

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#15

Re: coffee-maker

08/14/2007 8:23 PM

water very near the heating elements will boil. the bubbles will rise a few centimeters and then condense. this will cause the water to circulate through the pipe and you'll never get it much hotter than it is except very near the heating elements. It probably won't boil at 212 degrees if its deep underwater, because it will be subjected to a column of water which, if my memory serves, increases either a pound of pressure for every five feet of water or five pounds of pressure for every foot of water. I have a memory like a steel sieve. I think it's the latter. so the pressure that allows water to boil at sea level is about 14.7 pounds per square inch. Three feet underwater, it's double that. I think. At great depth, water can be heated to hundreds of degrees and it still doesn't boil. If you want the water to boil, cap one end of the pipe. The pipe will quickly fill with water vapor, forcing out the liquid water. If you cap both ends of the pipe, you will have created a pipe bomb which will eventually explode.

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#16

Re: coffee-maker

08/14/2007 10:35 PM

nothing ...... nadda ....... water wont even get near temp... in the ocean?? Ok lets pretend you put it in a large tub of water were you wouldn't have an infinite mass to heat. It will eventually boil. Thats it, steam off and bubble a three foot diameter tube is way to big ... maybe if you had mega powered heaters that could turn water to dry steam at the rate of 20 to 30 gallons a min. And i say dry because it would have to be hot enough not to be cooled by the influx of the cooler water maybe you could get water to come out the elbow in little spurts.

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#17

Re: coffee-maker

08/14/2007 10:51 PM

totally off topic, but this whole discussion reminds me of an article I read today about the french engineers who are dealing with carbon dioxide dissolving in the water in a lake in cameroon my sticking a large soda straw in the water and priming the flow of water with a pump. After a brief time, the carbon dioxide coming out of solution with the water (up to 5 liters of CO2 per liter of water) makes the water rise like a percolator up a largish plastic pipe. They hope to sink a couple more pipes into the water and reduce the CO2 to below a critical level within a matter of a year or two. The water jets up 50 meters above the top end of the pipe. They have to make constant adjustments to the flow and they do it by having a webcam on the water column which uploads a picture at seven am and 11 am. From their offices in France, they judge the height of the spray according to the silhouette of the mountains behind it and if they need to make an adjustment, they do so by sending the command through a satellite hookup. It's almost surreal, the combination of dead-simple engineering (the pipe, which operates entirely on its own without consuming energy except the potential in the gas dissolved in the water) with space-age feedback and control.

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#19
In reply to #17

Re: coffee-maker

08/15/2007 3:44 AM

Can't you just rely on the French. Just when the whole of the rest of the world is embattled in attempts at 'sequestration' of CO2! Seriously, why do they feel this is necessary? A bet for bizarre Web-ertainment?

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#20

Re: coffee-maker

09/04/2007 1:40 AM

Taking into consideration that both pipe ends are opened, and there is enough heating source. The water shall boils inside the pipe, goes up until full boiling, causing steam bubbles goes outside from the narrow end of pipe 1 ft. By continuation of heating, after certain time, the whole container shall be boils.

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: coffee-maker

09/04/2007 4:08 PM

Abdel you are the only one with an intelligent comment and worth replying to . Let me clarify, the 50 ft pipe is not heated. The heating elements are in the 3 ft horizontal section that tapers down to a 1ft diameter hole.

If I can heat the 3 ft section fast enough , the water will expand . It can't go back down the 50 ft pipe because the pressure is much greater down there. It will escape through the 1 ft hole and new water will come in from the 3 ft dia pipe.Diameters of pipes will have to be calculated according to power supply. ( let's say a nuclear reactor) A valve could be mounted before the 1ft opening that opens at a certain pressure.

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#22
In reply to #21

Re: coffee-maker

09/04/2007 4:30 PM

"If I can heat the 3 ft section fast enough , the water will expand . It can't go back down the 50 ft pipe because the pressure is much greater down there. It will escape through the 1 ft hole and new water will come in from the 3 ft dia pipe.Diameters of pipes will have to be calculated according to power supply. ( let's say a nuclear reactor) A valve could be mounted before the 1ft opening that opens at a certain pressure."

Why and to what purpose?

Or is this thread another inane execise of 'MM' ???

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#23
In reply to #21

Re: coffee-maker

09/04/2007 5:20 PM

Thank you Johann

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