220-Volt 3-Phase Plug Conversion Using Existing Wire to Breaker Box

Since we can not see the state of the wires and this contractor has. Maybe a little much to call him a crook. We don't now how old the factory is. So what type wire was initially run. Or how many times the 3 phase circuit was over heated to the point the insulation is brittle and falling of the conductor. I will agree if the wire is in good condition and of the right gauge to handle the 15 amps then there should be no problem. Then again who runs 15 amp 120 circuits in an industrial setting. In industrial setting I have always run 20 amp circuits. Then OP has not told us what the outlet will be used for. That also may be the reason contractor wanted to make the change.

The outlet was put in 3 years ago and was used for a paper folder stacker that used 10 FLA(?) amps it was a 25 amp twist plug done with with 10 gauge copper wire.

The new machine only needed one 220 Volt plug and we had two separate feeds so we need to convert the other 220 Volt plug to 110 so that we can plug in a box machine a conveyor system they applies tape to a folded carton this draws 3.2 amps at 110 volts and a fan ( small stand alone to cool operator area)

I stand to be informed here. In my thinking an outlet is equivalent to a socket (female connector) while the plug (male connector) goes on the cable firmly attached to the machine. i would not like to see an outlet with exposed pins.

A true 3 phase system will have 3 breakers, one for each leg and the voltage between phases will differ from the 120/240 system this sounds like.

If it is indeed as gringogreg suggest, the electrician is creating work $$ at your expense.

Right. A three phase system would be 208/120V, not 240/120V.

Not necessarily.

What other 3 phase system will normally provide 120V?

240/208/120 with one of the 240 pairs center-tapped.

....A
.../|\
../.|.\
B--D--C

AB = AC = BC = 240
BD = DC = 120
AD = 208

OK. Thanks. I don't think I've ever seen (or read about) that one!

The AD 208 leg is typically called the "high leg" and is often colored orange, with B and C being black. (That may not be uniform everywhere.)

That reminds me to wonder if the OP could state all the wire colors present at the receptacle. That might give a further clue to what the existing system is.

Never been into the boonies have you? Pretty common in rural areas. Forty four years ago I screwed up a set of electrical plans for a new bank just 10 miles outside of Harrisburg, Pa. Service was assumed to be 208V, but got this hybrid 240V system we are discussing from PP&L. Should have known to check for this - that is the basic three phase service in my home county.

Actually, I was born in the boonies in your state (on a farm near Meadville), but I left there during WWII while still a toddler.

Tornado's mentioning the orange color of what I know as the "stinger" reminded me that not only have I indeed seen one, but we actually have one in our plant. We have over a dozen 208V 3Ø transformers, mostly 75kVA, and then in one area we have this oddball, of similar size, but 240V 3Ø. I actually learned about the "stinger" in a previous facility where someone, even more ignorant than I, connected the 208 V of such a transformer to a 120 V outlet in a lunch area. After learning that they had burned out 3 coffee makers in a couple of months, it occurred to me to check the voltage of the outlet...

Yes Meadville - you have a rather famous actress from your little town, don't you, and a very fine car club I've run into a few times? (not literally)

Yes, and we used to have a 7 drop system in our old plant, as it was a combination of several buildings built together that used to house multiple companies. In the mix was at least 2 of the hybrid systems and the remainder were standard 208V. And yes, we had the burnout problem once as well. I got management to get rid of that within 2 years of working there. One drop only please, and make it 480V. Kept me and a crew busy for a while rewiring everything, but it was certainly better afterwards.

It's actually very common in smaller commercial applications.

Odds are you would find such a system at any small commercial business in your area that does not have a high electrical power demand that would otherwise justify as full 277/480 VAC three phase power system but has more load than a 120/240 single or 120/208 three phase supply would work in.

Small grocery/gas stations, restaurants, small fabrication and service shops use it a lot. It's the most convenient for applications that have a lot of 120240 volt single phase power requirements yet still have larger loads that need some three phase power.

Many of those applications are set up with 'phantom leg' three phase system where only two transformers are installed for the service. One large one supplies the main 120/240 volt single phase power and a smaller 240 VAC only second unit supplies one leg of the delta connection for the three phase loads.

Electrically the three phase devices see the three legs but technically the third one is being supplied as a phantom source since it does not have a dedicated transformer generating it but is entirely dependant on the inherent phase angle difference produced by the two other legs.

Its rather easy to identify if you look at the transformers behind most smaller businesses. If you see one large and one smaller unit and not three equally sized units more than likely they are running off a 120/240:240 delta phantom phase system setup.

Thanks for that clear explanation. I once worked in a shop that had that type of electric service. I always wondered how they could get 3 phase with just two transformers.

Eventually, as we added more 3 phase equipment to the shop, the electric company converted our service to 208V. My heat treating oven was not happy with the change from 240 to 208. It took forever to come up to temperature after the change.

Center tapping is typically not the greatest idea anyone ever had!

Then why is it the all-but-universal US standard for single-phase service?

No. We saw it and just didn't like it. Choosing to not do something is not failure to do it.

Besides some time ago we did rather give certain parties in that general region of the world the finger over our disagreement in how they liked to do things.

Really? This entire thread revolves around whether the offending supply is 240V 3 phase or 240v single phase with splits. In the UK we have the choice of 240V single phase domestic and 440V 3 phase industrial. The householder runs all his electricity, from bedside clock to washing machine, from the same supply voltage and phase. What's not to like?

Yours is metric electricity and too hard to relate to!

I am a fan of the ring type electrical circuit runs used in many European places though. Being able to safely pull 30 amps off a 14 ga wired circuit would be so nice!

That 'ring' wiring is a headache for troubleshooting, since it runs from the distribution (note I did NOT say 'fuse/breaker') panel around in a loop and back to the panel. If you have a wire break, BOTH ends of the broken wire are still 'HOT.' Depending on the loads, you could end up with that break sparking intermittently, and if the wiring isn't inside metal pipe (Like we do in Chicago) that sparking could lead to a fire.

That's why UK plugs have fuses inside them; there are no fuses/breakers on the circuits themselves. It is against the electrical codes there to have an un-fused plug.

In the American system, you (almost, depending on the idiot wiring the building) always know which end of a connection is the 'source' end and which is the 'load' end. Disconnect the source and all the loads 'downstream' from that point are electrically dead.

Actually in the UK the domestic distribution panel (we call it a consumer unit) does contain a circuit breaker for each ring main. The fuse in each plug represents an added security.

My point is that the average worker can't find his arse with both hands, much less the center point of a winding. But there I go again.

Actually it pretty clever being it takes a system voltage and ground references it from the center instead of one end so no matter which end of the supply you touch it is never more than half the system voltage above earth ground.

Thusly on a 240 VAC single phase system with the center tap tied to earth you are never more than 120VAC above ground.

Plus as I and others have shown that center tapping concept on multi phase power systems allows for some extra source voltages and unique system configurations too like the two transformer based phantom phase based setups that allow for a user who has a primarily single phase load to add three phase power with just one more wire, a second transformer and a change out of his distribution panel to accommodate it.

Something SE does for his customers (or at least bills them for) in like 10 minutes without having ever talked to them let alone ever been seen on site. Now that's customer service!

It will still kill you or anyone else just as dead. Just go ahead and connect with it and a path to earth ground.

It will CAN kill you, but only under the right (wrong) conditions. My first experience with 120V threw me across a small room when I was about 8 (my screwdriver slipped while replacing switch & outlet covers after having the house plastered). Since then, I've been shocked by 120V at least a couple of dozen times, by 220 at least 5 or 6 times, by 480 once, by 12kV once (fortunately through a very high resistance), and by various higher (static electricity demos, CRTs) and lower (telephone ring generators) voltages hundreds of times.

I'm still quite alive!

And driving to town and back or walking up or down some stairs will kill me to. (If the conditions are right.)

As with the billions of other people on this planet who have the modern conveniences of electricity in their homes and workplaces I have been shocked many times, and from far higher voltages than 120 VAC, yet I am and all of them are still here.

So yes, it 'could kill me' if the conditions are very specifically right for it to do so but under normal conditions hardelly, In fact we all live with far far more dangerous things around us every day and don't even realize it.

SE is absolutely correct. I have just been making some assumptions about your electrical system based on your description. But, I am not there to see your actual situation, nor am I knowledgeable about the relevant codes in your jurisdiction. Always, you must follow to the recommendations of a licenced electrician that knows your local electrical codes.

I guess that I should rephrase my statement "you must follow to the recommendations of a licenced electrician" I should have said: what ever you do must conform to your local electrical codes.

Yep kind of like SE's comment of' "Codes are not suggestions," anyone who has worked around electrical or HVAC contractors know damn well they are seen as suggestions and they are only 'the law' when they don't have an inspector in their back pocket which too many do. In my early work days I had the displeasure of work for a few who made it painfully obvious that they had inspectors in their pockets.

The work we did was pure illegal crap largely done with old recycled junk materials. And when it came time for inspection a certain employee had a meeting with the inspector, who never got out of his vehicle let alone looked at anything, and for it a large envelope of cash was handed over.

And I have saw that done more than once in more than one field which is why I have zero trust of electricians and HVAC people and the work they are do. I've made too much of my income over the years redoing sloppy and outrightly illegally done work from those two fields than I care to admit to.

Now as for dealing with any contractor if they are happy to show you around and answer anything you ask to best of their ability that's they guy you keep. If they give you hell and start fussing about entrapment or liability or threaten to walk off the job if you keep 'harassing them' with code questions and videoing them run their ass off report them to the better business bureau immediately because it clear they know they are doing something wrong.

Any decent code abiding contractor in any field should never be afraid of a video camera and basic questions about their work. Most should be proud to be worth recording and happy to let you know the what's and why's of their work. I always have been!

Yeah I'd like to see you explain that in a court of law when you were being sued for installing unsafe wiring that caused damage....I don't know how things work out there in the Badlands but you try any of that foolishness in this state and you can say goodbye to your license....If work you do causes damage to property or person and it's proved by forensic investigation that you didn't follow code, you'll be sharing a jail cell with the inspector that looked the other way...You won't get away with anything, the insurance company will send in their own investigators, good luck paying them off....

I think you directed that rant to the wrong person and the wrong location.

He's just butthurt because I called him out on a HVAC related claim a while back.

He made some claim about troubleshooting system and I called him out and said name the time and place I will meet you there then he pulled the paperwork. certification cop out followed by dictating an impossible service call time of something like 10 minutes to find a problem in a complex system that not even he could meet.

Which to be fair in such a commercial application if such a odd malfunction as he made up came up a properly trained and knowledgeable service tech would easily spend that 10 minutes and more just talking to the customer and whomever works around the systems in question just to get an idea of whether or not there is an actual problem or it's a customer induced one before ever touching the machinery itself let alone hooking up to it and declaring anything is actually broken.

I can find most problems in 10 min or less....While you're busy explaining to the customer why everybody else is wrong and you're right, I'd be on my way to the next call...Face it you live in the wilds and are not used to rules, or opposing viewpoints for that matter, or really any time constraints....

Oh please do explain how you can do a proper system diagnosis and repair in less than ten minutes starting from what point on the customers properly you start and end your billable time from.

As I understand it on this forum more than just myself have some degree of HVAC background, if not many of us are life long service technicians at minimal, so I am rather sure those of us who do, plus everyone else who's just curious or just interested the field, would love to know how you do a proper and complete service and or proper repair call in under 10 minutes and consider that a proper and regular occurrence!

Personally, I rather suspect that by local law in you area 10 minutes with minimal amount of time you can be on a customers property and be legally allowed to write up for billable time, (usually 30 minutes to one hour) plus travel and any other service fees you can come up with hence your push to be out of there in 10 minutes so you can get to the next customer and screw them in 10 minutes or less.

As I stated earlier I have had the unfortunate life experience of having worked for a couple of outrightly crooked companies and everything you have said so far lands squarely in the lines of what I came to see of how crooked HVAC techs work the system and justify it to themselves to keep doing so.

As for where I live, what exactly does where I live and what laws we have here have to do with the credibility quality and overall anything at all regarding my or anyone's knowledge skills and credibility regarding what I or anyone else does for a living?

As being this is an international forum composed of Engineers, Technicians, service people and other all around hands on technically knowledgeable people from all over the world I am rather sure all of us would love to hear your views on how where each and everyone of us lives and what our local rules and laws state has anything to do with what we know and can do or what sort of quality of work we do as well.

So yea as for my service calls I chat up my customers like old friends and quite regularly swap my service work for trades on things the can do for me in return. Win win but unfortunately as some who has no minimum billable time and just goes by the base time and complexity of the service call to determine the bill I have to admit that unlike you I only make money for the time I am there.

But then again, I have zero concern with anyone anywhere any time following me around on any service calls with a video camera and asking me every possible question they can come up with along the way from start to finish.

Especially questions about how I have come to know how to spot likely crooked technicians by how they work and what they say and do or don't do for and with their customers.

I too question what kind of problems can be diagnosed in 10 minutes. I commonly get asked to find a problem in a complex machine I've never seen or studied before. Sometimes I can just look and see a burned-out component, which either is the problem or directs my attention to one, but then there are others where I have spent days studying faded or incomplete circuit and mechanical diagrams, sometimes in a language I don't speak or read, before understanding what the problem is.

I cant recall ever doing any degree of what I would even call a legitimate service call where I was in and out in 10 minutes.

Too be honest I cant say many I have ever been on where it was even a call to a well known customer who I was familiar with had me to the actual machinery in question in less than 10 minutes unless it was a rental machine that was parked someplace i could drive up to.

Typically for any HVAC system work just getting past the receptionist to talk to the facilities manager or whomever was in charge of such tings took more than 10 minutes.

Then there was usually the long walk or climb up to the roof beyond that. Even once there at least one panel had to be opened up to do even a basic amp clamp and voltage test to see if the unit was getting power which with many units that's a several minute or longer test being even if the unit does cycle on it takes a bit for the system pressures to balance out and give me any stable definitive readings that would give me the first indications that the system maybe low on refrigerant or have a possible compressor issue. From there the gauges come out and so on.

Basic onsite diagnostics on a good day was 30 - 45 minutes if not longer before I dare suggest to a customer they may have far greater issues than a tripped breaker or low refrigerant.

Finding the problem and fixing it are two different things....Your defensive stance means I've struck a cord....The fact that you admit to working for crooks tells the tale here...

I didn't know they were crooked companies until after I started working for them.

It's a common thing most everyone here has likely been through in their life at least once. Especially when first starting out in life. No one really knows what their employer is really like until you are with them for a while.

The mark of character is is what they do once they find out. Once I found out what sort of crooks I was working for and with I bailed.

I have no embarrassment or shame in admitting I worked a short time for what turned out to some bad people that did highly illegal things. I didn't know but one I did I left.

Also, what chord do you think you struck?

I think you're just trying to draw the discussion away from yourself and your own practices so as to not have to answer them, and likely incriminate yourself, in front of your rather knowledgeable and diverse online peer group.

But, to be fair I will let others decide on that. I have nothing to hide about how I conduct my work and business practices and I have even less reason to try and lead the discussion away from myself so that I don't have to answer anything.

Actually the latest contractor scam I have been hearing about around here now is the up front 'anti liability fee' where if you want them to do work you have to both pay and sign a non liability on their part contract saying no matter how bad they 'Eff' things up you to take full responsibility and agreed they were not liable.

I got told directly about it twice this winter regarding the contractors who do snow removal and heard through the grapevine some of hte the HVAC guys are playing that game on furnace repair now too.

$100 to show up, $100 more for the anti liability fee and contract signing and then one hours billable time (usually $150 - $200 an hour for the first hour) regardless of whether they are there for the full hour or 5 minutes and in the end they have zero liability for any and all damage they did or that comes from their work since the customer signed a contract and paid them for not being liable for damages.

You can be as mad and disrespectful to me as you want but I am not one of those people and I do not play those games or cheat my customers let alone lie to them about what I do or how I do it. And I certainly do not try to bury them in BS paperwork and liability/ insurance is so expensive/certification blah blah blah bullshit excuses for raping them on fees and hourly rates either which given what you have said other threads regarding such work has me thinking you play that game rather well to make a fast buck on your customer base.

In my parts my certifications are in order for work I do and my insurance covers everything I do and then some and to top it off I know for a fact it doesn't cost a 1/10th of what most crooks whine about to their customers to justify their outrageous hourly fees, plus 'show up fees' and every other made up technical/bureaucratic sounding fee they can toss at them just to make more money for nothing more than self justified fake bureaucratic bullshit runaround excuses.

Sure my certification may not apply where you are but then if you can't follow how different regions have different requirements for the same levels of work that just gives me that many more reasons to suspect you are not as knowledgeable in your job as you claim to be.

Which BTW, if you ever bothered to look at a map and compare my listed location to it you would also know I don't live in the frigging badlands either.

Maybe you could have your contractor read this thread and explain what needs to be explained.

You just need do it once, and do it right, Mildred. You don't want to annoy your fire insurance company, do you?

There is no part of what you just described that within code guidelines. What you have is a first order electrical safety incident looking for a place to happen, right in your lap!

I can't imagine why anyone would have an electrical install carried out by someone who ties his horse to a pole at the front door and gallops off into the sunset afterwards whistling "Home on the Range." I just can't.

You do have the option of getting several quotes from appropriately qualified contractors instead of coming here for random opinions from individuals who can't see what you're looking at.

Now, I need to saddle up. Good luck with it.