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Participant

Join Date: Aug 2013
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Phase Indication Lamp Flickering in HT Panel

06/03/2017 11:58 AM

Dear all, In HT Panel (Power Plant) When Line PT and Bus PT's are in service, Phase indication lamp for all panels (Grid Bkr, TG Bkr, Aux Trafo, Bus PT ) are flickering. When any of the PT (Line PT or Bus PT ) is removed then flickering is not there.

Secondary of the PT's are made "star" and earthed. Phase Indication lamps also made "star" and earthed in same earth flat. If i remove any of that "star" point (PT sec earth or lamp earth) from that flat, there was no flickering.

Kindly suggest me to avoid that flickering.

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Guru

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#1

Re: Phase Indication Lamp flickering in HT Panel

06/04/2017 12:14 AM

Some where in the indicating lamp circuit, neutral point is open.

you have to isolate it by regrouping .check removing lamp circuit alone connected to grid PT, similarly lamp circuit connected to BUS PT.

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#7
In reply to #1

Re: Phase Indication Lamp flickering in HT Panel

06/06/2017 11:26 AM

There is no open circuit in indication lamp. If I remove the lamp circuit, flickering stops. Even I remove the star point of all the three neutral points of PT.

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#2

Re: Phase Indication Lamp flickering in HT Panel

06/04/2017 12:20 AM

Tighten the terminal screws on wire 138.

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Guru

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#3

Re: Phase Indication Lamp flickering in HT Panel

06/04/2017 12:27 AM

Maybe a shielded cable if it's just noise.....but I would first check the voltage feed to the bulb with a power analyser to determine if it's harmonics, noise, transient etc....it may be indicative of a larger problem....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_quality

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#4

Re: Phase Indication Lamp flickering in HT Panel

06/04/2017 4:44 AM

I would guess it is a power issue, but there is something confusing with the description.

What do you mean by "lamps being connected to earth"? Since they are connecter in Star, they need to be connected to the neutral point, and according to the North American electrical regulation, there can be only one connection from Neutral to ground, and that would be at the transformer.

If you please, can you provide more information about the plant? Maybe a schematic?

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Guru

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#5

Re: Phase Indication Lamp flickering in HT Panel

06/04/2017 5:50 PM

what is the frequency of the flickering? Maybe you are seeing 3rd harmonics, 150Hz or 180Hz, from having multiple grounds on a 'power system'...

All 3 lamps flickering?

each phase in time with the others, phase 1 flickering on-off same time everywhere?

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#6

Re: Phase Indication Lamp Flickering in HT Panel

06/05/2017 4:00 PM

Most definitely, some one there in the control room has a screw loose.

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#8

Re: Phase Indication Lamp Flickering in HT Panel

06/06/2017 11:47 AM

Pl go thro the above SLD of PT. If I remove the "PT sec Star Point earth" or "Indication Lamp Star Point earth," flickering stops.

Also, the voltage between both of the star point w.r.t earth is 30 V (instead of 0).

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: Phase Indication Lamp Flickering in HT Panel

06/06/2017 12:21 PM

Sounds to me like there is still a screw loose. Although, with the data presented, there could still be a phasor problem, such that the three phases are not locked into grid frequency (you did not state the flicker frequency, which I hope is way less than 1 Hz or you really are going to have a problem).

You think you have earth ground, but I now submit you should must investigate earthing potentials throughout your facility, stop ignoring any ground fault alarms (if you did), and get proper bonding to earth ground as established by grounding network near the generator.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Phase Indication Lamp Flickering in HT Panel

06/06/2017 12:59 PM

The 30 volts is capacitive coupling to ground, similar to when you have a missing ground (open wire) on a 120V circuit and you measure 60V to ground.

Your secondary voltage to neutral is 69V, so, if ungrounded, you measure about half, or 35 volts. Your ground (neutral) circuit is incomplete, and the capacitive coupling is enough to turn on a LED lamp (good detail you added). I think if you put incandescent lamps there you would not get enough current to turn on the lamps, especially when you remove one of the 'ground' connections.

The return circuit from the lamps (neutral) should not be grounded twice; your wire between the neutral point of the lamps and the neutral point of the PTs must be insulated and point to point (4 wires to the lamps). Ground only in one place (as is standard for all power systems, even instrument circuits, that are intentionally grounded).

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#11

Re: Phase Indication Lamp Flickering in HT Panel

06/11/2017 12:54 AM

Part of the problem falls to the choice of using LEDs vs. Incandescent bulbs. LEDs are by their very nature on-off devices that inherently lack any electrical/thermal inertia. The design of the electronics in the base of the LED determines its response to the AC waveform; i.e., the larger the capacitor (if any) the longer the LED stays lit as the AC voltage falls below its extinguishing voltage.

Incandescent bulbs operating at 50/60Hz have enough thermal inertia which, when coupled with the persistence of the human eye, create the "picture" of a constantly lit bulb, plus they provide a constant path for draining off any phantom/capacitive voltage that in reality doesn't provide enough current to heat the filament.

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