Technological Progress

I have one word for you, Luddite.

You cannot stop progress, but don't worry there will always be uses for human labour. Look at how automated and complex modern manufacturing is, from canning through to motherboard manufacture, and look at how many people are STILL employed as you mention.

Robotics will never fully replace human labour in our lifetimes (mainly due to cost and limited skillset adaptability).

The greed of industry should not replace humans.

Yea, good luck with that. Does third world child labour count?

It is the working class that made this country what it is

Sadly....was. Due to numerous reasons other countries have pulled ahead, and once the skills and passed-down experience and specialty tooling have been lost it is a hard road to rebuild what once was, and even harder to be competitive on the world market with those that are and only continue to get better.

If anything robotics may be a way to help save the working class as it evens out the playing field and offers a chance to be more cost competitive. Will there be less people employed, yes, but some are better than none.

I've watched a number of episodes of "How It's Made".

"The operator puts the piece on machine A which drills, shapes, grinds, etc. The operator then removes the burrs and puts the piece on machine B ..., and so on "

My first thought was that the human just gets to do the grunt jobs that require no skill, that, at one time, were done by an apprentice to learn the trade. Perhaps another way to look at it is that the human is the boss of the skillful machines (or robots).

My first thought was that the human just gets to do the grunt jobs that require no skill, that, at one time, were done by an apprentice to learn the trade. Perhaps another way to look at it is that the human is the boss of the skillful machines (or robots).

It trans-placed the Skilled laborer (Machinist) from the actually machine operated, to the maintenance mechanic.

And drops the Skilled laborer (machinist) requirement, to a semi-skilled laborer (Machine Operator) which not only runs the machine, but may do the set-up on different production runs.

Where skilled labor is still required is the small production runs, where its a low run or one of a kind part. Possible on a CNC as well as manual run machines

"You cannot stop progress..."

True, but isn't it helpful to have at least a few along the sidelines asking "Should we do it?" rather than "Can we do it?" like everyone else? For years Facebook's motto was "Move fast and break stuff." Do you really want technologists with such mottos guiding that progress?

As Marshall McLuhan said: "There is absolutely no inevitability as long as we there is a willingness to contemplate what is happening."

Well let's not rule out the possibility that workers themselves will own the robots....You do your job until you get enough money to buy your replacement, and it then works for you....Your responsibility is to just keep it well maintained and up-to-date....since the robot requires only the basics, the majority share of his pay goes to you the owner operator....Everybody would become sub-contractors....Your smartphone would be in constant contact with your bot, monitoring it's performance...

Sooooooo, that's like saying the employee will purchase and own their own lathe or drill press. I would think the Unions would have something to say about the cheap-skate employers expecting the employees to buy their own (lets be honest - not inexpensive at all) tools.

Sub-contractors don't have unions, and don't need them...Remember if someone or in this case, something, is doing your job, you can go and do something else...can your lathe do that? Does it earn a separate paycheck? Sub-contractors work under a negotiated contract with the employer...You both have to adhere to the contract, so you write your own ticket...

So your thinking of contractors? That's starting to sound like some sort of decentralised manufacturing concept where workers bring there own tools to work to make a product. Quite the paradigm shift for anything more than very simple small scale manufacturing don't you think?

No, subcontractors....The owner just owns the machine and is in charge of and held responsible for it's performance....You as a subcontractor can sub your tasks out to others....For instance you are setting up a production line, you hire movers to move your robot, you hire programmers to program the task....You never actually are on site, except maybe for a visual inspection...You have electricians wire it up, and an IT guy to set up communication links....or perhaps you take a more hands on approach and do it all yourself to maximize profits....

Now the company merely lists the requirements of robots it needs, and if your machine meets spec then you can bid on the job....or you can have an agent handle all that....

Sort of like long haul truck drivers, there are owner/operators and there are those that lease the truck, and then there are those that drive somebody else's truck by the hour....

Until that robot becomes sentient, joins a union, and goes out at night drinking lube oil, and smoking varnish.

Unfortunately, big business thrives off of productivity gains and decreased expenses. Wall St dictates profitability requirements. The C-Suite dictates the big picture on how the cuts will be administered and when. Middle management decides who stays and who goes.

When robots are able to take over your job, you had better have a plan, because the C-Suite guys have determined the optimal time to make you and your job extinct. They won't let you bring in your own robot, which will do your work in place of you. Why pay you, when they can bring in their own robot and then cut you and your pay off completely.

I work in industrial robotics. Sorry that some of my designs will replace a human but that is the way it is. The ARPI (Autonomous Robotic Pipe Inspection) will make 8K measurements in 2.5 minutes. That is impossible for a human.

The only way that America can compete with cheap foreign labor is to automate. There is a huge manufacturing complex that produces electronics in China that is automating as much as possible so they will not have to pay an employee 5$/day.

Its the future and there is no way of going back.

I agree, so rather than lamenting about the situation, or denying it's going to happen, we should be exploring ways to make it work for us...We're like the ferry boat owner who is being replaced by the bridge, we have an opportunity to set up a toll booth at both ends of that bridge....we should do it...

We have this belief that we have to compete with China. I don't think we do, nor should we focus on them. Instead, I think we should penalize companies for taking our jobs overseas. I also believe that our government should put a tariff on imported goods. Make the playing field even and put the interest of our great county as the top priority.

Years ago, I had the same belief. Level the playing field and if the others don't like the game, then they can just leave. Protect our jobs and bring as many as we can back to our shores.

You do not think we should compete with China? I was laid off in the steel industry after 10 years due to China flooding the world market with cheap steel.

When you walk into Wal Mart to buy a t shirt what is your first consideration?

Its not where it was made but what is the price.

America can not compete with cheap foreign labor unless we automate or pay a premium for goods.

What do you think would've happened if our government had the guts to stand up to China and the big corporations and put a heavy tariff on the imported steel.

Here's a simple concept. Add up the jobs lost from dumping cheap steel. Add up the cost to keep these people at the same standard of living they're accustomed to. Add this amount as an import tax (tariff) to imported steel. The people who lost their jobs can be retrained - paid by the tariff. They also will get a large living allowance, while they receive training and do apprentice work - again paid by the tariff.

The incentive to dump cheap steel goes away very quickly when they have to pay for the damage they cause.

Do the same for cheap clothing, electronics, household items, etc.

Where do you think our country would be if we would've done a better job protecting our jobs 10-20 years ago?

I agree with you about the average consumer buying a cheap t-shirt at Wal Mart. If people we're so set on buying so much stuff and instead focused on buying things they need, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in. They could be picky about the things they bought and they could pay more for non-China goods.

It's a revolving door. Advertisers say that I'm not a worthwhile person if I don't buy more stuff, but I can't afford it, so I have to buy cheaper, lower quality China goods. Lower sales of quality US made goods = layoffs. Manufacturers go overseas to lower the cost to manufacture the items. More jobs are lost. Average wages fall = less free cash = more need for cheap goods. More production goes overseas = more jobs lost. Rinse and repeat!

I do think we could've stopped it if we would've been strong, but we didn't and now we're paying the price. The next generation will pay an even higher price.

Yes i agree.

I am a minimalist. I live in a 35' RV and it is totally adequate for my lifestyle. I buy quality in anything as poor quality does not last or perform.

I do not have the room to fill up my living space with things i do not need.

I believe people keep buying things because advertising says to do so. Keep spending so the money flows thru the economy and keeps the government happy.Also i think that so many people are unhappy with their state in life that they think things they own will make a difference.

You have to ask, when do things that you own, own you.

You nailed it! People are unhappy, so they buy things that they think will make them happy. Then they do everything they can to protect their possessions, even though the only reason they care about the item is because they believe it makes them look better to the outside world.

They can keep their crazy thinking!

yes,... my weakness is tools... DeWalt, Milwaukee, Ingersoll Rand, Craftsmen, Bosch, etc... I use tools to build my façade. Only I built it not to impress the neighbors... its to keep people out. especially girl scouts selling cookie... those little bastards, Last spring, they still show up... And I didn't even eat the last ones from the year before and had to throw those out to make room for a fresh batch.

I bought a Miniature Pincher to protect the place from these little devils selling their wares,... but when I answer the door bell and open the door, he scouted through and ran away, like someone left the gate open..

Tools, cars and watches.

You mention Ingersoll Rand. I haven't had an IR tool in years. Back then they were pretty good. I hear their quality is still tops.

I love Milwaukee tools. Engineered well and top quality. Very durable and long lasting tools!

I've owned a few Bosch tools and they're excellent too. I've owned a Bosch cordless drill/driver that's from the mid 90's. Still works well after all these years. Bosch laser tools are great too. They have a nice feel when holding them and they are compact in size. I love Bosch drill bits, blades, etc. I think they're better than the other brands.

I'm torn about DeWalt. I've had a couple issues with my DeWalt cordless drill/driver. The bits aren't as good quality as Bosch or Milwaukee, though price is about the same. I'll choose DeWalt over Craftsman, Black and Decker, Stanley, Hitachi, Skil, Rigid and Ryobi.

Makita ... I've owned older Makita and I thought they were okay. The newer Makita has a nice look and feel, but I haven't bought a Makita since the mid 90's

HF - I've owned them and the only power tool that's decent is their DA polisher/buffer. It's okay - a little noisy, but it works well.

Cars - Yes!!!

Watches - The intricate mechanical movements are amazing. And the tick tick sound!

Milwaukee I love their large 7" grinders, the 4-1/2" its DeWalt, Cordless Drills is DeWalt, Close quarter drill Milwaukee... Bosch Distance laser ranger.

Stanley and Dewalt as well as some others I believe are now owned my the same parent company.

You can tell when you have a quality tool in your hand, you can feel the difference. And tools Its Craftsman and Snap-on,... I'm no longer a professional tool user, so now its mostly Craftsman unless I com across something good at a Garage Sale. Which I do.

I do have a Harbor Freight Impact Drill, only because I use it once every 2-3 years and a Harbor Freight Porta-Band that I use even less. You can tell the quality difference. But they are at a fraction of the price.

Next time you're in a big box store, take a look at the Bosch and Milwaukee cordless drill.

Here's what I like about these, over the DeWalt.

1. The Bosch has a indirect charger. The brushless motor is not only strong, but it's compact in size and very smooth. Here's the one I just got. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bosch-18-Volt-Lithium-Ion-Cordless-1-2-in-Variable-Speed-Brushless-Compact-Tough-Drill-Driver-Kit-DDS182WC-102/205951645

2. The Milwaukee has a regular charger (must remove the battery). The thing I really like about the Milwaukee is the chuck. It's keyless, of course. When the bit is tight, the chuck makes a ratcheting noise, letting you know that it doesn't need any more tightening. It's actually a really nice feature. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bosch-18-Volt-Lithium-Ion-Cordless-1-2-in-Variable-Speed-Brushless-Compact-Tough-Drill-Driver-Kit-DDS182WC-102/205951645

I've dropped my DeWalt cordless drills and now the cases are a bit loose. The Bosch and Milwaukee are still rock solid.

Oh, but I have,... I have a cordless, Milwaukee Cordless Right Angle Drill Driver.

Always had a corded, the trigger broke off 15+ years ago, and I finally replaced it. I love it.

I dropped my Dewalt 18V cordless drill last week from 10 feet up twice, working on a garden shed. it landed solid on the cement floor,... no cracks... but that could be luck.

I also have a very old cordless Makita that I never use 7&9V. I doubt if that could take the punishment.

I have some Bosch tool also,... but there laser distance finders... very handy.

Its something else the battery technology that's there right now... was thinking about the Dewalt 20V tools, but I all 18V.

But the DeWalt FlexVolt 20V, 60V and 120V cordless is pretty interesting. Doesn't matter where I stop Lowes, Home Depot,.. etc..., I always go to the tool department.,

And the when it comes to 7/9" in Grinders. I don't think no one has a better durable grinder than Milwaukee. OK, I didn't try out Makita's or Bosch....

Because I had mine for over 15 years.

The Milwaukee rt angle cordless drill is a nice one. 18V or 12V?

This is the Dewalt cordless drill I have. http://www.homedepot.com/p/DEWALT-18-Volt-NiCd-Cordless-1-2-in-Compact-Drill-Driver-Kit-with-2-Batteries-1-2Ah-Charger-and-Contractor-Bag-DC970K-2-4/202019943 I actually have two of them (the first one died when I was working at a rental house, so I got another one to finish the job). When I got home, I tore the bad one apart. The wire at the switch broke off - five minutes and some solder and it was working again! The cases on both are not cracked, but they are a little "loose". Also, the chucks wobble a little.

This is my old Milwaukee hammer drill. The most bulletproof cordless drill I've owned, though its heavy! https://www.rsci.com/v18-in-hammer-drill-kit-0824-24

I don't have a good grinder - something I don't use very often, so I have a junky HF that does the job, but it's super noisy.

Sawzall = Milwaukee! I bought a Dewalt and it stopped working the first day I had it, so back it went. To save money, I got a Porter Cable. It seems to be okay, but it's not a Milwaukee.

Though I do have a Hackzall 12V by Milwaukee - small job - mini sawzall. It's actually pretty nice, but it lacks power when cutting thicker wood. Though it does fit in small spaces.

12V ...., I've been using it quite a bit, Plus the reverse is right below the finger trigger. so its also one handed like the DeWalt. Only with the Milwaukee you use your finger instead of your thumb and pointing finger to change directions.

That's a a beauty!

I have a few Milwaukee 12V tools and they're great The small battery holds quite a bit of charge and they tools have a nice feel to them. The 12V is also a lot lighter than the 18V battery. They're great for day to day use or for tasks that don't need a heavy duty tool.

So if by, "...so I have a junky HF that does the job...", you mean Harbor Freight, I have 5 of those so I don't have to change wheels all the time (I have a cut-off wheel, grind wheel, wire brush, wood-shaper, flap disc on its own grinder). I found out that they don't put much grease in the gearbox. So, brand new, I open it up and put grease in it. Quiets it down a lot. So far, I had only one crap out on me.

No, I have HF tools also. Impact hammer drill and portable bandsaw. Its fits, because I only us it occasionally. But the quality gap is still there, but it is closing.

I bought the higher end HF flex ratchet and compared to my craftsman, I like the HF for its economics... if it just that it's lasting power and durability has to be proved out.

Did you get the hammer drill with the SDS chuck? I saw them in their ad and the tools actually looked pretty good. https://www.harborfreight.com/125-Amp-SDS-Max-Type-Pro-Demolition-Hammer-Kit-63440.html

I had just bought a Bosch http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bosch-7-5-Amp-Corded-1-in-SDS-Plus-Bulldog-Xtreme-Variable-Speed-Rotary-Hammer-with-Auxiliary-Handle-and-Carrying-Case-11255VSR/202080348 to do some stucco removal (actually to change windows at our house). I didn't think about going to HF - again, I remember the old orange HF power tools and the problems I had.

The Bosch tool works great. Smooth, relatively quiet, low vibration, etc. I bought the Bosch SDS chisel (Made in Italy) and it worked great and still looks like it's in good condition.

Like you said, there's a definite difference in quality. HF has improved over the years, but there's still a very noticeable difference in quality.

yep, about 13-14 years ago,... just used it last month. HF send extra brushes too.

And with the price,... I think at the time I paid $39.00 for it, I treated them like a disposable tool or consumable. but its still working for me.

And it was an ugly orange,... then its red...(probably copying Milwaukee colors) now they changing the name.... I think my was Chicago Pneumatic... now it may be Bauer or something.

I had forgotten about the 1/2" corded hammer drill I bought. It worked well as a hammer drill - a little noisy, but it did what it was suppose to do.

Then I tried to use it to mix thinset with my paddle mixer. I used it for less than a minute and I noticed that the motor started to slow, so I backed off. Well, I must've done some damage, because it doesn't run as smoothly.

Then I tried to use it to mix thinset with my paddle mixer.

Did you try wearing it as a hat...?

That's a pretty good idea. One tool for each type of wheel/disc.

I didn't think about putting grease in the tool. I think it's a great idea and it should quiet it down a bit.

I've had a few HF tools that didn't do well. The orange color circular saw died the first day I had it. Ditto for their orange Jigsaw - that one lasted about a week. And the blue cordless drill/flashlight set in the blow molded carrying case. I went through two of those in a few months, then I gave up on their power tools. Except for the DA orbital polisher. So far, it's done a good job.

Why are some drills so touch and go with the trigger. They seem to go full speed on the first squeeze. Other drills (Black and Decker for instance), seem to have a lot better control of rotation speed in the trigger. OR are we talkin' apples and oranges on classes of tools here?

My watch is a cheap gift from one of those survivalist clubs, or from wounded warrior, or something like that. It keeps me from going to pocket for cell phone when I want to know what time it is.

My Bosch has excellent trigger control. My DeWalt's don't have as good control. Milwaukee is okay too.

The Black and Decker does have really good trigger control. Though the B&D doesn't feel as solid or well made. Also the torque isn't as good and neither is the balance. Finally, the battery life on the Bosch and Milwaukee are phenomenal. The DeWalt is pretty good.

What I like about the DeWalt cordless is that reverse is easily accessible with your drill hand without removing it from your work.. A one handed drill. My not sound like a big deal. But it does to me.

That is a good feature. Ultimately, it is all about control in the hands of the user, in the tasks that fall under his care and control.

The reverse switch on the Dewalt is very easy to use.

Though the Bosch and Milwaukee also have an easy to use reverse switch, which is very similar to the Dewalt.

America can not compete with cheap foreign labor unless we automate or pay a premium for goods.

But they can compete and win with quality. But as the politicians for the last few years would sit on their hands and kowtow and/or apologize to our competitors, we will lose that also.

China is not the problem so much, as lack of American education jobs being left unfilled, and poor personal buying choices by many Americans.

If the American product is clearly superior (such as tool steel items, high speed steel items, etc.) then clearly buy American first.

If the clothing item is better quality from an American MFR, then buy that. Plain and simple. Quality goods are always less expensive than cheap goods. Trust me on that.

Somewhere in my generation, people believed that they needed to be consumers and being able to buy things = success and a high quality of life.

I don't agree with it myself, but I don't consider myself an "average" person. I do believe that the "average" person was duped into being a consumer and the worst part is that they were taught that they needed it now! Charge it, so you can have it now!

I remember Wal Mart stores when Sam was alive. I remember seeing so many "Made in the USA" signs all over the store. Sam Walton did push American made goods. Here's an excerpt from Wiki "The first true Wal-Mart opened on July 2, 1962, in Rogers, Arkansas.^[18] Called the Wal-Mart Discount City store, it was located at 719 West Walnut Street. He launched a determined effort to market American-made products. Included in the effort was a willingness to find American manufacturers who could supply merchandise for the entire Wal-Mart chain at a price low enough to meet the foreign competition."

Walmart use the advertise that all its products are made in the USA, until it was discovered the clothe was made in Pakistan

Nah, we will just need more and more robots, and people will have to put them together, and maintain them (for a period of time). I and you both will be long gone when humans are no longer required.

...unless of course, gulp, we're assimilated....

If anything, robotics is helping to bring jobs back from China and 3rd world countries.

This reduces child labour and exploitation of workers, it pushes people to get an education, so they can perform the higher skill jobs required in automated facilities, it reduces pollution, as we don't have to burn oil to ship products from China.

And so on.

It's like hitting half a dozen birds with one stone.

...or hitting half a dozen humans with one robot....

ADMIN: Deleted Post

Politics: This post was deleted because it was overly religious or political. While each user is entitled to his or her own opinion on these topics, this forum is not the place for discussion about them. Please review Section 14 of the Site FAQ and the Rules of Conduct.

You got it so wrong! "The purpose of using robots is to increase profits for companies and investors at the expense of human workers." is totally wrong! The real reason for robots is to abolish "slavery by another name" so that humans can live the lives they were meant to live. And if you say that humans weren't "meant" to to be free, then you need to attend some Planned Parenthood meetings. Children were not meant to be slaves (your children or other's children). And I am so glad that I have no children, because I knew this very early in my life. I won't have to answer to "future generations" for my insistence that they participate in this nonsense.

What precisely, are you calling nonsense? You lost me at hello.

The whole purpose of work is to have a better life. Having a better life depends on your values (personal or collective). If my work will not produce a better life for ME, Then I can get nothing without working. This human was displaced before robots even entered the picture. I want to create a good robot so that nobody would want to enslave ME when you have a perfectly good robot to use.

I agree with "Sometimes life is not all about you. It is about contributing something that benefits the entire society, not just you.". However, the benefits to society and one's self do not have to mutually exclusive. Both parties can benefit together. It takes a mutual recognition of a goal to stay in harmony. And it's that harmony that makes life better. It can't be one-sided. And that takes being actually social and not just "laying down the law".

Thanks for the lecture. I guess I was laying down the bricks pretty fast and heavy.

Harmony is hard to come by, so if you find it don't lose it.

GA

Hmmm. I'm not sure if I agree. If your work doesn't help you live a better life, should you continue working?

1. No. You can stop working and receive money and food from the government. Hey, you can even get a smart phone! And nearly free utilities.

2. Yes. Even though you may be just as well off as if you were unemployed, you are not a burden to society and your work produces some sort of value to mankind.

3. If you're ambitious, then you should continue working and at the same time, work on sharpening your skills, so you can compete for higher paying jobs.

Please don't take this wrong. Unfortunately, huge corporations control so much of this world. When they can improve efficiency by replacing workers with robots, you need to be aware that they will. Why? Shareholders want the best return on their money. The Board of Directors are there to "protect" the interest of the shareholders and to increase the price of the stock. The board keeps the C-Suite people around, because they're doing a good job keeping the stock price up. The C-Suite must keep efficiencies high and expenses low, so when a robot becomes more cost effective, then the human(s) will be replaced.

In a perfect world, robots would be created for us, so we can spend more time on things that are good for our soul - art, music, playing, fun, etc. This is not even close to a perfect world and robots will keep taking jobs from us vs helping us have more free time - that is unless you become unemployed for a long period of time - then you will have a lot of free time on your hand.

I don't want to shatter your world, but big corporations do control things.

Ask yourself why Mark Fields was just fired ... I'm sorry ... why he quit as CEO of Ford?

While the S&P has been hitting new records, F has dropped almost 33% in the last three years.

I heard that the Chairman of the Board met with Fields shortly before Fields resigned. Of course it has nothing to do with the stock prices going down, right?

I think we can learn something from the social groups that shun many forms of modern society while thoughtfully embracing and actively using others. Their rationale is roughly based on the questions: Is this good for the group? Or, does this help ensure the health and stability of the group? Granted, the ones I am thinking about now also are in religiously oriented communities, but they are generally quite heaalthy and successful. So, for us, the question might be: Does the use of a robot in this instance promote the health/safety/potential of the person whose work it starts to do (or does in part)? --JMM

I have found no unambiguous way to provide an affirmative answer to that question, therefore I defer to a Higher Authority.

Something more basic is missing here. Remember the law of Physics that says Matter/Energy is neither created nor destroyed, but only changes form? Well, if the world we live in is finite, and sunlight is supplied at a finite rate, then there comes a point when those finite resources will no longer support a larger growth-rate/population no matter what Man says about it. We'll just have to accept the fact that population management/control has to enter the formula/recipe somehow. Not everything is about "contributing", sometimes not contributing to the real problem is better. What about "first do no harm."? Either we learn to share, or we ensure that there is no one else to share with.

Relax. Mankind can only so far reside 99% on land, and land is less than 33% of Earth surface. Right now mankind only occupies a small fraction of the actual land area.

If we subtended all the light incident for power, by that time we would also have the capability to expand off surface to build rings around Earth, and coalesce those rings into a hard shell of larger and larger, and larger diameter to accommodate whatever takes place above or below it.

What you say might be true, but that is not necessarily scale-able. Try scaling it down to a small village and you have to contend with their specific resources. Try scaling it up to the whole universe, and you'll realize that no matter how many resources there are theoretically, our access to those resources is more limiting. In other words, regardless of what society in general has access to, if MY access is not adequate, then I need to make MY decisions based on MY "world" alone. And if MY life is not adequate for ME, then I can't afford to include someone else as a dependent/debtor, even if that debt comes in the form of inherited debt which I did not create. If I owe society anything, then I need an itemized bill that can have a record of payment with a receipt. And that means that "society" needs to have a "collective will" for which the entity can answer for in-the-specific and not just in-the-abstract.

I think you should have your head examined by a professional to ensure nothing is leaking out of your cranium, we want to prevent contamination.

In other words. NO. When you start an argument supposedly based on logic, next time please do attempt not to base it on a false premise, and then change the false premise to an even more ridiculous one later.

Can you please be more specific on what that false premise is, and which other one I switched to? I fail to recognize what you refer to. And please also tell me what's so ridiculous about it/them. I would appreciate the opportunity to improve my life. Thank you.

False premises:

1. "Well, if the world we live in is finite, and sunlight is supplied at a finite rate, then there comes a point when those finite resources will no longer support a larger growth-rate/population no matter what Man says about it".
2. "And if MY life is not adequate for ME, then I can't afford to include someone else as a dependent/debtor, even if that debt comes in the form of inherited debt which I did not create. If I owe society anything, then I need an itemized bill that can have a record of payment with a receipt. And that means that "society" needs to have a "collective will" for which the entity can answer for in-the-specific and not just in-the-abstract."

If you limit yourself to n-1 dimensions, in an n dimensional world, I suspect you will run into finite limits much faster. You need to provide some basis for assumptions made about the "world", especially when at present only minute amounts of the true resources are utilized, and half of that is wasted.

You seem to be generalizations based upon your personal circumstances, thus these are by default not adequate to describe the "world" experience.

Broaden your horizon, realize the bounty and generosity of Earth, and then go live long and prosper.

"Broaden your horizon, realize the bounty and generosity of Earth"?

That's exactly my problem. That's how the Native Indians lived, and look what happened to them.

I agree. Never took economics, but in my thinking the "economy" has only two basic inputs--time and energy. Unfortunately there are many other factors that can enter, such as our being such a small component of this amazingly beautiful and large earth in the much larger universe, with things in motion that we don't see. We just lie to ourselves that we are all-capable, etc. Pogo's observation from about 40+ years ago is so apt: "We have met the enemy and it is us."

On a more practical side of things, two simple changes in law could have some significant impacts: 1) place an import duty on all products equal to the manufacturer's or importer's reduced costs for the products made elsewhere when they avoid health, environmental, working condition and safety rules placed on those who manufacture in this country, but also allow this to be bi-directional for items manufactured here and sold elsewhere; and 2) have some form of tax on the environmental costs from our excessive use of fuels, etc.

--JMM

Boo hiss on #2, or rather #1 on #2, or even #2 on #2. I would go all the way to #3, but not sure what that is.

We already have enough taxes. What part of Liberty and Freedom are you opposed to?

The second suggestion was fairly poor, but I believe the first is valid. I suggest a different #2 suggestion: Have tax law treat as corporate taxable income all compensation (wages, stock options, and all others) paid to any employee or officer for the portion of compensation that is in excess of 50 times the compensation received by the lowest paid worker.

Presently the ratio between highest and lowest in the USA exceeds 1000 for many corporations, while in Europe it is MUCH lower. I am sure that corporations would almost immediately find some way to do an end run around such a law or rule, so the wording would have to be fairly open--witness what happened when 32 hours per week was the cutoff for having to provide health care and so many low-wage workers had their work week cut to 32 hours!

Regarding liberty and freedom, I see many limits to them, imposed voluntarily on those who truly try to follow the teachings in the Bible. At the present time, any claims that the USA is a Christian nation are false--we worship power, money, and self, while we only give occasional lip service to the other.

JMM

Yes, kinda hard to have a Christian Nation where the natives want to BBQ the Christians.

For the last 1-2 years I have been witnessing major change in the supply chain industry - digitization. While for other industries, voice control is something new that is about to be launched in the next few years, for the logistics branche it is something completely normal and usual. Up to 80% of the packaging and loading are performed by robots. As pointed out in the following case study https://www.epg.com/pt/newsroom/detail/galliker-quality-and-infrastructure-contribute-to-europe-wide-logistics/ robots can do also the labeling of articles with desired imprint. Therefore in my opinion it depends fully on the industry whether or not robots should be used for certain activities.

Do the robots have issues understanding different accents, and what is the spoken language? Spanish? Italian? English? German? Please explain, I sense a Tower of Babel issue developing.