The Negative Stigma of Seriously Discussing UFOs

If you haven't seen a UFO? You must not be gazing towards the heavens nearly often enough.

For a "superior being," I'd expect perception of time to move at a different rate or be entirely flexible over a much longer period of life.

A bird flies overhead and darts through a tree without a wing touching a branch while a worm travels underfoot just a couple of yards a year.

There is no reason to believe life is not existing at the interstellar level.

There is no reason to believe we are not akin to the worm: unaware and thoughtful, occasionally plucked from our habitat by a UFO.

OK, that's quite enough philosophing for one morning.

"... worm travels underfoot just a couple of yards a year...."

Worms can move through earth under their own power at speeds of 10s of yards per hour.

"... the worm: unaware and thoughtful, ...".

How do you know worms are unaware and thoughtful?

.

".... superior being," I'd expect perception of time to move at a different rate or be entirely flexible over a much longer period of life

A bird flies overhead and darts through a tree without a wing touching a branch while a worm travels underfoot just a couple of yards a year....."

.

In your analogy, is the bird superior ....because it flies faster? ...because if there were a confrontation, it typically eats the worm? ...because it you know it to perceive time differently (more favorably) than the earthworm? ...because the bird flies above while the worm resides below?

I took the comment as an observation of biodiversity already known to exist together in our now-here.

I, too, admit to seeing something remarkable but unidentifiable in the night sky. I, too, have spoken of it to very, very few people.

The buzz phrase on X-Files was - ‘I want to believe’. Didn’t say I DO believe.

I got my information from a book I've been reading for a few weeks.

The Earth Moved - By Amy Stuart / on the remarkable achievements of earthworms.

While worms can travel faster, they have little need to go far if their needs are being met.

A single yard of travel (over the course of a year)in various directions is not uncommon for a worm.

"Worms can move through earth under their own power at speeds of 10s of yards per hour." interesting? What worm? there are many types.

To clarify... I was referring to the birds in my yard... and my happy, deaf, blind, and aware worms.

What worms? Earthworms (of various kinds). Inchworms I believe would typicallly be a.qmlfaster.

When I get in my vehicle to travel, even though usually don't drive for a full hour yet I still maintain speed based on miles per hour. Even though I return to the same place and often stay within a certain range, those wouldn't be useful in attempting to get out of a speeding ticket.

Even if a bird stays within a circle with a square mile area, all month, it wouldn't feel right to classify its flight as having a speed around a mile per month.

My worm info is from personal observation and not rigorously scientific.

Perhaps the development of awareness in your worms has led to them taking life at a more leasurely pace....or perhaps being aware burns a lot of calories and speed reduction is a necessary tradeoff.

I like your analogy. I myself am agnostic with regards to UFOs. Or to put it another way, unless UFOs affect my life directly in a way that forces me to take action, I'm not gonna pay much attention. Only because I know I could waste way too much time thinking about the subject.

I'm just trying to keep a low information-action ratio.

Cool story! Yeah, I think you make a good point. It's tough to discuss the subject critically. I think the author makes a good point that the small amount of information available makes it tough to do any sort of scientific analysis.

However, I do think it's too bad that there is such a stigma associated with it that it can't be discussed openly in an academic setting. It would be nice to have more than the two choices of not discussing it or going to a conference where there's little critical thought.

"I think the author makes a good point that the small amount of information available makes it tough to do any sort of scientific analysis."

If you watch the videos I posted it becomes clear why the subject has been stigmatized. We are reverse-engineering the ET tech, and that is kept very very secret, and has been since the 40's. There are two major reasons for the secrecy, #1 Defense Tech, #2 Energy Tech. These things don't fill-up at Chevron or run on batteries, and probably are not nuclear either, or if they are, it's very advanced, much safer, much smaller, and more powerful and controllable than what we have.

All of this tech is disruptive to the current petro-dollar and the current state of our military hardware and deployments. In this light it is a no-brainer that the powers-that-be have squashed any serious discussion of these topics for decades. No academic can get funding if they pursue these topics. No military person or any corporate person will keep their job or advance in their position if they talk about these subjects. Period.

I'm glad it's getting easier. I'm thankful to these retirees that are speaking out and breaking the silence and spitting in the face of stigma.

Harmful to career? Trying being a military pilot and report seeing a UFO and see what happens to your career future.

For the record, I would like to be able to say that I had seen a UFO, but all I can honestly say is that we saw some kind of power surge along an above-ground (telephone?) line while we were car-pooling into work one day, x-dozen years ago, as evidenced by a very bright, silver-gray, glow above the roadway ahead...

Does that ''count''?

The bottom line is that, if only one sighting actually was a UFO, then it does not matter how many other sightings were not, so, I have to logically allow for the possibility that at least one of the many sightings could have been an actual UFO...

When you say UFO do you mean alien in origin? I think many are unidentified flying objects to the person who sees them. Some are unidentifiable to the majority and perhaps someone knows what it is. Some are unidentifiable to everyone but could have natural explanations if the information was available. Some are probably extraterrestrial natural phenomena like shooting stars and related.

As to if any are of alien species in origin (can I call this ASO), I tend to doubt but as you said it only takes one.

Two Ice Ages ago, (when I was verrrry young, haha...), it is at least theoretically possible that there was some sort of pre-neanderthal hominid which evolved substantially during the good-weather gap between those two Ice Ages, and then took refuge (under?) the returning Ice Cap, and continued to evolve, and to scientifically develop, to the point of becoming extremely scientifically advanced, in comparison to the later appearing species of homo sapiens (i.e.: us...).

But, they are currently undecided as to what to do (to/with/about) us...

In short, they could be semi-alien earthers...

Sounds to me like that WAS an Unidentified Frying Overload....!

Good discussion topic - 5 stars.

Are the varied Ancient Astronaut theories similarly jaundiced?

Carl Sagan has discussed the possibility of paleocontact with extraterrestrial visitors.

I've dislike the extraterrestrial explanation of UFOs for years. I think it was Arthur C. Clarke but it might have been another Sci Fi author that summed my objection up best. Any extraterrestrial civilization so advanced to shatter the spacetime limitation of the speed of light to visit other solar systems will have no more curiosity of us as we have towards the ants living in the Grand Canyon. They certainly would not go to such extremes to remain hidden from us, too.

Some people devote substantial attention to ants...I'm not sure the ants are any the wiser.

I think that we, humans, are being very presumptuous about our level of sophistication, in the scientific and astrophysical sense, that we posses the intellect to identify aliens from other worlds. We tend to classify them in human terms with which we are familiar when their form, intellect and method of travel, if they even choose to venture about the stars, may well be beyond our meager comprehension.

We, as a civilization, may well be just a seedling that has yet to even sprout a root system that may someday grow into a "thing" well enough equipped to realize what form other life forms may take, how they might travel if they even choose to, communicate among themselves and with others and even if they would realize that we existed.

The term, "UFO" is far too broad a term and can mean an infinite number of things to those who bandy it about.

In the end, I do not believe that we will ever discover "them" unless they want us to.

Is there a stigma? I would say yes.

First, there are people that are so "open-minded" they believe anything and are sure there's a coverup. Second, there are pranksters that want to fool as many of the first category as possible. (I recall a UFO photograph that I recognized as the reflection of a ceiling light fixture reflected in a window.)

So, anybody who wants to investigate UFOs objectively risks being grouped with one of the above.

Nope. No stigma here.

IMHO, we'll only know if "they" want us to.

Is it the correct question, or should it be, what are UFO? I also do not think they are from another world, but I do think that there a probability that they are some natural phenomenon. History tells us that humans have played around with different explanations, for what they saw, in nature. So what is an UFO?

<...So what is an UFO?...> The question is abstruse, and here is the reason. It is <...an UFO...> because whatever it is, it is <...U...>. Once the object is identified, which is the answer to the question, it ceases to be <...an UFO...>.

You got there first. I was going to say the same thing .....but also U could be unknown, or unwanted, or unheard, or unseen, and so on.

And why limited to flying? Why not swimming or buried, or whatever......

Lights! Always with the lights. Bright lights, dim lights, multicolored lights, lights, all in a row, but always with the lights.Any civilization advanced enough to make interstellar journeys probably doesn't need lights to see,or be seen.

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I live under the eastern approach to Sky Harbor Int. Airport, and seeing lights lined up in a row is an almost nightly occurrence as planes line up on their approach to Sky Harbor. These "landing" lights help the tower locate and even help identify approaching aircraft by type. Different configurations of lights are characteristic of aircraft types.

“...characteristic of aircraft types.”

As demonstrated on the documentary film ‘Close Encounters of the Third Kind’.

Well just imagine what you could do with a bunch of drones now....I think you could probably duplicate every ufo sighting to date...

Intel's 500 Drone Light Show | Intel - YouTube

This is cool!

There are some great videos of LEDs attached to sheep, being herded at night, by sheepdogs, in the British Isles.

Makes for some great viewing.

Maybe only non academic types should investigate ufo's, thus releiving academic types from the physical and psychological stressors associated with stigmatation.

"... stigmatation.."

...iz...

There's the problem. Non-academic types see aircraft lights and assume they belong to a UFO.

They do play a valuable role in the grand scheme of things but they also have a fear of the unknown that can cloud their judgment.

Real space travelers will be seen only if they choose to be seem.

Groom Lake may contribute to some UFO sightings and others may never be explained.

I agree that we have some secret tech that can confuse the average observer, but I do not think that all that is seen is ours. I am a trained observer and I have seen many things that I know are not ours or at least not what is not publicly ours. There be stuff flyin that ain't normal. Even Ezekiel had a story about weird sh!t flyin around! It's been happening for years.

My curiosity has overtaken my restraint.

You said, "I am a trained observer."

Care to tell the forum how, and by whom, were you trained?

Sure. I was trained first by police as a police explorer scout, then by air force personnel as a CAP cadet (I was the Deputy Cadet Commander of my squadron), and then later by retired FBI and Secret Service agents working in private investigations.

Here is a good one: The Japan Airlines Incident

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iPygrgSddQ

This is "good" in what respect?

A single person saying words that have no real meaning.

Reminds me of the 9/11 "truthers," crazies who manufactured words to fit their conspiracy theories.

Or, these mysterious sightings:

2:01 Woman Sees Virgin Mary in Tortilla FOX San Antonio YouTube - Apr 9, 2013 0:26 Man sees Jesus' face in tortilla LOCAL 12 YouTube - Dec 22, 2014 1:44 Caller.com Entertainment: Jesus Appears on Tortilla Caller-Times | Caller.com YouTube - May 19, 2011

You must not have watched it. He was the division chief of the FAA Investigation Division. Not some crazy.

I watched parts of it.

Maybe it's all true. Does it have any more credibility than other first person accounts of unprovable events??

First person accounts of unprovable events are admissible as evidence in any court of law. So, what is wrong with first person accounts and eye witness testimony? What about Pilots?, Air Traffic Controllers? Nuke Base Commanders/Guards? If their judgment and eye witness accounts are questionable, then we have much bigger problems on our hands.

Malmstrom Minuteman Base Incidence:

We are not in a court.

Much "evidence" is entered into many lawsuits in court. Evidence does not constitute a fact. In court, facts are determined by the presiding judge, not the witnesses.

Why Science Tells Us Not to Rely on Eyewitness Accounts - Scientific ...

We have diverse opinions here. That is a good thing. Let's not confuse opinion with fact.

Facts are elusive. Watching Fox News and MSNBC report on the same event demonstrates this every day.

This comment, and SolarEagle #3, are excellent observations and comments regarding the title of Bayes’ thread. I’m throwing both a GA.

Well this FAA dude had 30 min of radar data from an air force base and the tower at Anchorage that the CIA took away, and he was the 4th ranking official of the United States FAA. So what constitutes evidence in your mind when the the witness is this credible?

I have seen two ET craft within a 1/4 mile of me, one at night at 200' above ground and following north bound 101, and another very different craft at about the same altitude in the day time in Bodega Bay. I know that these were not ours. We can't build or fly anything like them. I wasn't out looking for them wearing a f-ing tin-foil hat either, they just showed up. I don't have radar traces or fuzzy camera footage, but I do have a very good understanding of what Earthlings fly, and what we don't. What a I saw, we don't fly.

Oh this is evidence but it is not conclusive evidence that proves this is anything but an unknown, baffling incident.

A common complication of many baffling incidents is the collection of all unexplained yet roughly coincident data and assuming this will all be expressing the same phenomena. This technique will often allow people to remove the bafflement of an incident thus making it a trusted process. Then the related, coincident data of the incident can now be identified and separated from the other random but coincident data that is not of the incident. However, when an incident is never explained all of the coincident data remains lumped as part of the unexplained data.

In short, unexplained and unidentified means we don't know. I doesn't mean it has to be aliens.

^”Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagan_standard

That’s why.

Beam me up Scotty. Too hostile on this planet.

Proof? I have to imagine any being capable of routinely traveling space and time would have no problem hiding their existence from us. The universe is old and quite large and full of things we don't yet understand or even conceive of. That other life forms have developed and advanced beyond our capabilities in that time. From what I have seen, and that is all we humans really know, the universe is constantly experimenting, improving, changing everything it is. To me a safe bet they are out there. Have I seen a UFO?

I lived in Florida, I have seen lots of things I could not identify, flying or otherwise. Everyone comes to Florida for vacation.

Now there's a promising premise for a humorous movie...

(i.e.: space-travelling aliens decide to vacation in Florida to see for themselves why (Earth) is ''off-limits'' to all non-earth space traffic... Sort of a slightly more sophisticated ''Spaced Invaders''...)

Loved Spaced Invaders!

"I'll go get the bucket!"

I checked in my copy of The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy and it tells me that Earth is ‘Mostly Harmless’.

So far...

Retired Roswell military officers dont argue about the existence of alien beings.

They might argue over whether there are 47 documented species of aliens or whether it was 53 but one thing they agree on is that more than 70% of them are malicious or predatorial.

When you think that humans harvest cattle and sheep for their flesh and harvest minerals from the earth can we really point a finger at aliens if they are doing similar things with animals dumber than themselves ? ( that being us humans )

And you know this, how?

I realize that speculation is flying, but you seem to be speaking in absolute terms.

I don't know where you are getting the hostile stuff either. Every report I've read or heard was just the opposite. The dangerous ones are US! If they were truly hostile then it would be like making popcorn to them to just wipe us out. So far that is not the case.

"I don't know where you are getting the hostile stuff either."

I simply asked for clarification!

<unsubscribe>

I didn't mean you Lyn!

It’s pointless dumping criticism on anything UFO related Lyn , despite being a font of wisdom on many things in engineering at your age they are not going to offer you a job at Area 51 or Groom Lake so why bother ?

you don’t look at the videos posted here so I guess it’s a personal thing.

if you search back on CR4 there has been other informative threads on UFO’s but someone comes along with multiple ID,s and tags all the supportive posts with “off topic” to hide them. LOL

Yep, if our elimination was the goal of a species that has mastered time and interstellar space travel I seriously doubt we would know anything about it.
of course there is the theory that our "reality" is simply a simulation running on an advanced species computer so who knows. Gives new meaning to the "blue screen of death".LoL

Was Jimmy Carter a "credible witness"?

In 1973 Carter said (Sheaffer 1998:20–21)

"There were about twenty of us standing outside of a little restaurant, I believe, a high school lunch room, and a kind of green light appeared in the western sky. This was right after sundown. It got brighter and brighter. And then it eventually disappeared. It didn't have any solid substance to it, it was just a very peculiar-looking light. None of us could understand what it was."

Speaking in a 2005 interview, Carter states:

All of a sudden, one of the men looked up and said, 'Look, over in the west!' And there was a bright light in the sky. We all saw it. And then the light, it got closer and closer to us. And then it stopped, I don’t know how far away, but it stopped beyond the pine trees. And all of a sudden it changed color to blue, and then it changed to red, then back to white. And we were trying to figure out what in the world it could be, and then it receded into the distance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Carter_UFO_incident

It didn't seem to harm his career.

There is an argument that any US President could be considered a more reliable witness.

Of course Carter also reported being assaulted while on a solo fishing trip by a giant swamp rabbit that was hissing and gnashing its teeth. The quality of the photo evidence sharea similarities with UFO pics....

.

In all fairness concerning Carter' ufo sighting and any career effects; he expressly claimed he did not think extraterrestrials had visited.

The phenomena matches description and location/time of high altitude barrium cloud release experiments from Eglin AFB at the time. No known military exeriments offer similar explanations for the vicious swamp rabbit.

Don´t you have the feeling there are sort of "epidemics" of UFO sightings? Why does that happen? Do UFO´s only show-up when no Malaysian MH 370 disapears ... or when Mr Kim Song decides not to nuke the US for a while, and engages in "talks"... During the soccer world championship no UFO´s have been seen either...

Although there must be intelligent life forms out there ... it is remarkable that they only visit us when mankind is bored because of the lack of news on TV

I think it has much more to do with our nukes and our move into space...

Dr. Robert Jacobs

Gordon Cooper

Edgar Mitchell

If these witnesses aren't credible then who is?

One more.

Brigadier General Stephen Lovekin

<Sigh>

You don't get it. I see that you did not read Lyn's link. You possibly dismissed it because that report was about eye witness criminal suspect identification and not an unknown phenomena. Allow me to expound...

The memories of every human mind are flawed by bias, fatigue and many additional factors.The memories of the human mind are not flawless recordings of an observation, like what a camera performs. They are on the spot analyses of an observation. The intellect and training of the mind analyzing the observation is what makes the difference between a trained and an untrained observer. Once the memory of an observation ceases to make sense then the mind will naturally leap for alternate plausible explanations.

Planned sensory deception is the bread and butter of magicians illusionists. Unplanned sensory deceptions are just unknowns.

I think I know what I just thought and heard. I never did anything like this before so I'm not sure.

I have read it, many times in fact, and long before Lyn posted it. Of course the mind plays tricks on even the most trained observers, but what dosn't happen is radar being fooled in exactly the same way.

Watch the videos I posted. This is not dismissable as human failure of Penn and Teller fools blind magic tricks. It is serious defence and air traffic business and it is happening and has been happening for decades.

What pisses me off most is people who fail to look at the "strange" evidence because THEY are biased against anything outside their idea of normal, and then tell me I'm a nutjob for opening my eyes wide enough to see some truth and something truly out of the ordinary.

Don't talk about the subject, discredit the witness. Nothing to see here, move along.....

Okay, you’re a believer. You have seen irrefutable evidence, heard testimony from unimpeachable witnesses.

Okay, but please understand you hold a faith based belief.

When believers (e.g., religions or ET visitors or conspiracies) put forward as fact pieces of their belief and expect me to swallow their ‘fact’, I generally will resist. Like when in #61 you said “We are reverse engineering the ET tech...” I would ask something like “Who, exactly, is ‘We’?”

So, as long as we are here, just who is this ‘We’ that was mentioned?

I'm not a believer. I know. It ain't faith either, except in the my own ability to observe and question what I saw.

I'm not the only one. There are many many hundreds of cases of these craft all over the world going back decades. Presidents, Generals, Pilots, Air Traffic controllers, Astronauts. Good company if we are all "Faith Based Believers".

Someone is being fooled. It ain't me.

You’re starting to sound a little ‘Holier Than Thou’ in your proclamations.

The sun and our moon, are they the same size? Of course they are, this is easily proven: Every solar eclipse (viewed in the path of totality), the moon perfectly covers the sun. I have seen this with my own eyes, it is an indisputable fact.

Pigeons. I have seen thousands and thousands of them. Baby pigeons, never have seen one. However, I believe baby pigeons exist - As I consider further, I know they exist, it is an indisputable fact.

You said, "THEY are biased against anything outside their idea of normal."

Well, who's biased here?

You idea of, "normal" is different from their idea of, "normal," but your idea of "normal" is more "normal" than their idea of "normal?"

To whom?

I can't buy your being "pissed off" that have different ideas, views, beliefs, visual acuity, perception of what they believe is the truth.

We could apply this same argument to politics. Religion. Morality. The list goes on and on.

Ok I'll give you that. I am passionate about it though and I don't mean to be uncivil.

The “Tether incident” is one of my favourites and still on YouTube.

Another if still viewable on YouTube is the HD video from the pilot of an Israeli jet fighter being outfoxed and outflown by a bright silver sphere that blitzed his top speed .

HD video of two British fighter jets “escorting” an alien craft at high speed .

still photos of a dying alien where you can see the fear and pain in his eyes , you can’t fake that with a mannequin.

there are so many but some people have a fear to acknowledge its real even if an alien landed in their driveway and slapped them in the face with one of its 3 dix

"... still photos of a dying alien where you can see the fear and pain in his eyes , you can’t fake that with a mannequin...."

That is not an argument that helps the case...at least not the case that what was pictured was an extraterrestrial.

First, of course you can make mannequins that portray any of the full range of complex emotions. If you recognize it and can describe it, someone can make time it. The fact thet it is a still photo only means that it onky had to look like that emotion from that particular perspective with that particular lighting.

Second, and more critically, claiming that facial clues of the subject photographed provide a signal you believe unambiguously indicates a certain combination of emotion, if far more suggestive any signal (planned or involuntary) originated in something raised far closer to home.

That signals transmitted by facial contortions would somehow be the same form and meaning for life forms coming from places separated by huge expanses of space/time is highly highly unlikely.

Consider how Americans use facial contortions to show their teeth to signal happiness. Consider how different that signal is generally for a dog, a species whose existence is predicated on its proximity to us. The meaning is very far off.

Bearing teeth isn't even a commonly used signal for many humans as a way to express happiness and good good cheer. Many places, bearing teeth is a signal of extreme anxiety and fear.

Facial clues aren't consistent even across our one species. Similarity in facial signals would suggest not an increased likelihood that this was a genuine extraterrestrial, but instead the anthropomorphic misgivings of the hoaxter artist.

I just watched "the tether incident." My response ranges from "so what" to "you've got to be kidding me".

This is an anomaly in search of a conspiracy theory.

STS-75 - Wikipedia

Just because radar gets fooled by a phenomena we don't understand and people witness that phenomena and don't they understand what they saw, it doesn't mean that phenomena has to be an alien visitation. It means we don't know what caused that phenomena.

I'm not saying those shell game balls did not exist. I'm saying I cannot with my skills explain how that was done but Penn and Teller could. P&T verified how it was done using code I did not recognize and were not fooled by this illusionist this time but they were fooled the other two times this man presented other tricks.

There is no alien invasion happening. There is however a very real ET presence in our skies and on the moon and mars. This is VERY disturbing to the military and very important to the defense contractors and the oil industry. It has been very important to "dumb down" the population about it because it poses both a military threat and a serious economic threat to the oil industry. It has been actively suppressed and maligned for decades for this reason.

Project Bluebook was created for this purpose. It was his job to get the public, you, to believe in hoaxes and swamp gas and weather balloons. They succeeded for sure.

Watch the video of Gen Lovekin who worked in that project.

As I said earlier, anyone intelligent enough, and advanced enough, to travel thousands of light years through space, is certainly intelligent enough to hide their presence unless and until they want us to know they are among us.

I don't understand the connection to the military or oil industry.

If you have not already, watch The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951) - IMDb and remember that the "space ship" was a period depiction for effect.

Sorry Bayes for pirating the thread, but I think the subject needs exposure.

Here is Col. Corso who was present at Roswell:

Here is another government guy, the former Defense Minister of Canada, the Honorable Paul Hellyer:

And this: Bases on the Moon

For those of you so inclined, there are images that you can download yourself and study available at USGS Map-a-planet. This data is from several NASA missions, and for me, the most striking is the Clementine missions' UVVIS camera data. You have to manipulate the web page to get higher resolution images and you are limited to a couple meters/pixle, but that is more than enough to see structures that are kilometers across or larger. You can also see clearly UV light sources, the brightest objects in the images, and you can see these almost everywhere you look. I have used some contrast and brightness tweaks in the images I have downloaded to enhance some of the features but any good eyeball with an open mind can spot things that are clearly not geologic formations.

Here is the page for the best base I have found so far in the Clementine UVVIS data:

https://www.mapaplanet.org/explorer-bin/explorer.cgi?map=Moon&layers=moon_clementine_multi&west=53.13&south=-32.42&east=54.05&north=-32.00&center_lat=0&center=53.59&defaultcenter=on&grid=none&stretch=auto&projection=SIMP&r=5&g=3&b=1&advoption=NO&info=NO&resolution=538.095238095236&scale=0.02817&imageTopX=-6973.6997690052&imageTopY=-973373.5166471452

You can zoom in and out of this with the controls. Here is the starting point and where to zoom if you want to find it again yourself.

I see your source of choice is Sirius Disclosure. I did a little checking on the site and the principal, one Dr. Steven Greer M.D.

It seems he has a credibility issue with some of his peers. Dr. Greer claims to have held an alien baby in his arms, and claims to have developed (from alien technology) a zero-point energy device (which he claims works).

http://www.theangryufologist.us/dr-steven-greer-fraud-heres-proof/

So now, I just don’t know what to believe.

You do realize there are literally thousands and thousands of people that devote their spare time to producing UFO hoaxes....and bigfoot hoaxes.....and other types of, too numerous to mention, hoaxes....There's even apps for creating hoaxes...Your problem is that until you get a peek behind the magician's curtain, you believe the magic is real ....

W.C. Fields said it best, "everybody's got to believe some thing. I believe I'll have another drink."

Deef, I believe that you believe that there are really visitors from outer space. And that's fine. But you have been here long enough to know that skepticism is the rule here.

kastrupsky, joe.fordham and many other true believers have found the same reception that you have.

I do not believe that you have produced, "a preponderance of evidence' to support your case and that there is still not credible evidence to prove, "beyond a reasonable doubt" that aliens exist.

This comes back to the title of the thread.

I feel like I should lay a few cards out on the table here.

Do I have a hope, maybe even a desire, that Deefburger is correct, that Extraterrestrial Intelligent beings (ETI) are here on earth? You bet! Absolutely positively thumbs up affirmative.

Do I believe this is so? Not so much.

While many UFO reports can (righteously) be eventually explained as an anthelion reflecting off of a weather balloon that is filled with swamp gas, many remain ‘unidentified’. What the heck are they?

For me it is a big leap to go from ‘I don’t know’ to ‘It is an Interstellar Vehicle, and if you can’t make the connection you are drinking the blue Kool-Ade way too often.’

I am quite open to discussions, evidences, concepts, ideas, observations... Purported facts that really aren’t facts at all will, when you talk with me, be challenged.

So for me, the negative stigma of discussing the likelyhood of a UFO being an extraterrestrial vessel is that I have a reputation (in Fargo ND, in particular) of being a contrary, stick in the mud non-believer jackass smartass that won’t drink the red Kool-Ade being served up by the other half of the discussion.

So, I got that going for me.

In the grand scheme of things, it just doesn't matter.

We all fear the unknown.

Columbus and the night of the bloody moon | Science | The Guardian

Yeah, I’m already aware that our buddy Chris Columbus took full advantage of the ignorance of the local indigenous peoples.

Does this make him a huckster? Sort of does, would you agree?

Huckster? Sure.

As we see even today, modern con man, er men, are still taking full advantage of the ignorance of people.

Fair enough.

The stigma is a serious problem to get the truth. I have a sister who saw one in 1954, and a wife who saw one about 1980 in another state. There are reports every day at the National UFO Reporting Center. Sure some are hoaxes and some are planets or stars or airplanes, but do you think people who don't know each other in 6 states would get together to make a hoax about a UFO? Just read some of the reports, then decide.

For those interested, a broadcast interview about the paper with the author, Dr Adam Dodd:

http://thespaceshow.com/show/03-apr-2018/broadcast-3094-dr.-adam-dodd

and the original paper (link works as at 9 July 2018):

http://www.academia.edu/36232407/Strategic_Ignorance_and_the_Search_for_Extraterrestrial_Intelligence_Critiquing_the_Discursive_Segregation_of_UFOs_from_Scientific_Inquiry

Enjoy.

Art Bell is on the other side.

I could care less what someone thinks re UFO and other forms of life. The study of the Sumerian texts and the Annunaki stone carvings still have to be explained. I remember well in high school the teacher announced we would be studying Sumeria and Babylon since that is the source of our civilization as we know it. I asked a question ( how did they advance so fast at a time when knowledge only doubled every 2500 years) I was told to be quiet and prepare for the next lesson. As of those days we still have a lacking of ancient technology and the source. My mind is like a parachute it must be open to be of value.

Yeah me too. According to the Sumerian texts we are the product of genetic engineering, a hybrid of the Anunaki and the native hominids. They knew we had 9 planets and the asteroid belt, and they knew how the moon was formed in the same collision that created the asteroid belt. Hard to explain away their stories when our Old Testament was based on them. The first man was called the Adamu....

Well, if it's in the Old Testament, it must be true?

Then, following that logic, the Earth must be only six thousand years old?

No, not 6000yrs old, but that man has only been here 12000yrs or so. They knew the Earth was much older than that because their stories talk about much older Anunaki presence and the Anunaki told them the story of the Earth, Moon, and Planets.

I'm not saying the Old Testament is an accurate depiction of the Earths history, but that the Sumerian stories are very old and still exist today in some way in the stories of the Old Testament. In other words, we have stories of ETs going back thousands of years and they are the basis of the one book all three major religions have in common. That is not an accident and has to be seriously considered when we talk about the possibility of ETs and how or when they may have been here, as well as what they may have looked like flying about to the ancients. Ezekiel looks a bit different when the Sumerian stories are taken into account. It is hard to read that story in modern times and not imagine a spaceship or something in his description of wheels and fire. He may have actually seen the Anunaki ships, and not just had some religious hallucination.

I could not agree more, there is much more to the history of earth than the controllers of history will allow.