California Wild Fires

You beat me, I was gunna say that.
I come from up north, in cattle country, too harsh for the touchy feely tree-huggers to invade, but my Dad got skin cancer and was advised to go down south to a cooler less sunny climate. Victoria won, because my sister had married a touchy feely tree-hugger she met down there.
Went back on leave to see the new place and was amazed at the number of dickheads that had trees right up to there veranda's - in gum forests no less. This after their Black (insert day of week) fires that wiped out hundreds of thousands of hectares, thousands of houses and killed dozens of hoomans - plus bucket loads of all their beloved protected species.

Whilst there we went into the Kangaroo Flat pub for a beer with an old friend and his dad. I commented on the dickheads and Pete's father said "...but Mick, you're an engineer, why don't they fire proof the buildings?", as I started to reply "The regs are there for the buildings but not the surrounds..." my dad cut in and said "...because they're dickheads..." - end of discussion on subject.
Long story cut short, about a year later a fire got them and, shock horror, after much ho-humming the politicians did bugger all. No money, no studies (?), not enough feed back,.....according to them.
Keep in mind that Oz is about the same size as the US of A, but we manage to have the problem in every single state and territory, every year.
You are never going to eliminate bush fires - they're a natural occurrence, but man is making them worse. One thing that springs to mind is that when a naturally occurring fire happens man tries to extinguish it. Saving people or lumber or some rare 12 legged dingo - wallaby hybrid that some tree-hugger wants to save.
(Pete's late dad lived in Wallaby Avenue, Kangaroo Flat)
Late edit: There are some clear area regulations now but they seem a tiny amount of the amount really needed in a full blown fire - tree-hugger hand in politics again

Strange way to go about it - preventing frequent smaller fires from clearing the lower tier allows the lower tier to build to the point where it kills far more animals, insects etc as well as people.

It is also a budget saving measure as the wages of the people cutting the undergrowth is a very large sum. That is why they have cut power to try to save the company.

NO! My answer is that goats are not the answer!

Do not presume to speak for me.

As to logging. Have you EVER seen how a forest is logged? I have. The prime timber is harvested, leaving the undergrowth and non-desirable trees in place. Perfect for wildfire fuel.

Historically, (before the white man came) forests managed themselves. Animals were prolific and foraged on the undergrowth and lower branches of trees. The wildfires of the time didn't have the fuel to burn to the tops of older trees which were scarred, but survived.

We could always bury the HV lines and then overhead wires wouldn't be needed. No wires to break during high winds, which will only get worse with global warming.

Or, perhaps clear a 100 yard swath wherever these lines cross.

G'day high-tek, if you "ever" get the answer, please let Australia into the secret. We have idiots in power that ban horses and horsemen in our high country. This area is the equal to California as fires go. We are now entering our fire danger season and the south and eastern states are tinderboxes. I am a volunteer fire fighter and spend many hours each summer riding on the back of our big-red (Fire trucks). I don't know the answer, sorry, but the feral horses used to keep the high country well under control.

For my input, I would strap every politician to the bull-bar of a fire truck and allow them to see first hand the heat and destruction.

I agree.They are certainly not an endangered species.

These is no One-Size-Fits-All solution to wildfire,but applying common sense is a good start.

When politicians put on a necktie,it decreases blood flow to the brain,causing dementia,which is evident in their approved policies.

When politicians put on a necktie, it decreases blood flow to the brain, causing dementia, which is evident in their approved policies.

I like this!

First,

I agree, bury the lines.

Argument the cost is too much.

SO, only bury the ones in the woods, I do not think a city/highway crossover will burn the state down

I wouldn't want to try this on a windy day....

Many power lines are in the hills/mountains. There's no way to cut a clean swath up there and even if it was cut, the wind would carry the embers across to the other side.

Here in CA, we have a much different problem. Once a fire starts, normal methods of stopping it don't work. Prevention is key, but when a sick minded loser decides to start a fire, there's no way to stop him. There's just too much open land and it's too accessible.

Virtual Fencing Checkerboard and DoggieDrone Commodity

Put flasher/shocker collars on goats. The collars keep the goats on latitude/longitude periodic number "clear stripes" using GPS technology. Timber harvesters can harvest anywhere the GPS goats can go. Hunters can follow the cleared stripes but can only shoot goats in the "forbidden squares" between the stripes. Overpopulating goats will venture into the squares when they get desperate enough and hunters will shoot them. The collars warn the goats not to enter the squares but if the goat population exceeds certain thresholds the warning(flash) and shock(punish) zones can widen so that more goats get hunter harvested. Goats without collars who wander away from goats with collars are available for harvesting so not every goat need be collared. Hunters can buy GPS devices which indicate what direction from any specific location they are allowed to point their guns to shoot a goat. Elk and other previously indigenous species which are forest dwelling can have reverse goat warning collars and be introduced into the forested squares. Signals from these collars might indicate to the wearer when it is safe to cross the cleared stripes. Hunting these "wild" animals can be modulated by the safe periods to tune their populations since they will approach at those times the perimeter of their safe square and be visible to hunters on the clear stripes. Hunters should never shoot into clear stripes but may harvest square game as it becomes visible from the perimeter of its square during periods not tagged as "safe."

This scheme allows controlled access to only a percentage of the total area to lumberjacks, creates inherently maintained fire break stripes, re-establishes habitat for indigenous wildlife, provides cabrito to us who like it, greatly increases the inherent quantity of "edge" biome territory, will look interesting in satellite images, and can be implemented as slowly or as quickly as people choose in any particular area once forest management, lumberjacks, and hunters are on board. Individual land owners may choose to participate or not but if they do not they will be on their own as far as dealing with any goats which have leaked into their property. If they choose not to act, the goats will establish cleared stripes in their property as well.

All operational collar returns get a small (used cost recovery) reward and is on a "no questions asked" basis. Shooting directly into a clear stripe is forbidden for both management and safety reasons and carries a heavy fine and potential jail time. Some goats may be fitted with cameras for law enforcement purposes but all video must be publicly available live. No copyrights or privacy issues apply(and no government exemptions) since it is video taken from a public vantage point. Anyone can capture and sell it if they want. Video transmission must be disabled if goats venture off of public property. All goat video must be GPS tagged and live video feeds must retain public property GPS maps so that when a goat wanders onto private property, the video feed is blocked. If a provider fails to block the feed(and discontinue any recording), any laws against drone video of private property will apply despite the fact that the "drone" is an animal rather than a machine. The goatcams must all be available commercially to the public and they are allowed to outfit their own biodrones whether they are goatdrones or doggiedrones. They do not have to be bundled with virtual fence mechanisms but all must honor the same public GPS maps and provide live publicly available feeds. Government is responsible for creating and maintaining exactly one public venue GPS map database and all video taken from these locations with human eye equivalent photography is deemed fit for public free live access and capture with no legal afterthoughts.

__________

thewildotter

Your comments about management are true for every type of forest. Our boreal forest has a fire cycle as well, which naturally creates edges, and cutting is another way to do that. In the past 50 years our effort and ability to put out any fires that start has greatly increased. Our local area has seen very few fires and they have been contained in the early stages, so that now almost all of our edge and open habitat has disappeared. Moose are in our gardens looking for deciduous trees and shrubs because our gardens are now the only bit of edge, as more area continues to be cleared for housing.

I have heard conservationists talk about a complete "hands off" and "humans excluded" approach to forest management. This seems nonsensical to me in the context of an environment already impacted out of balance by our own actions. Wolves are extinct here; moose are introduced. The moose push the forest towards a lower diversity condition by heavily browsing deciduous trees and shrubs. They wander onto our highways looking for "edge" habitat and browse, and causing accidents. This can't come as a surprise when it's the best looking prime edge habitat around from a moose pov.

It seems pretty clear to me that there's no such thing as "hands off", and we shouldn't delude ourselves that we can eliminate one natural process and then expect the system to be intact without it. If not fire then cutting is necessary to keep up your edge - somewhere between 'clear cutting' and 'hands off' there's a middle ground where the forest product (in most forests, I would expect) is valuable enough to pay for the cost of harvesting and managing the land, and (one or more) ways of doing it without compromising natural beauty or habitat value whatsoever.

Goats can become an invasive species... to a certain extent.

one thing to think about goats, goats will literally keep eating, that they’ll eat themselves to death.

but more then likely what will happen, is the wolf and cougar populations will explode.

but like yours, that’s just my opinion... unlike you,.,, you’re welcome to have your opinion that’s different than mine.

Goats an invasive species?Tell me where.Feral hogs,yes.Goats?I never heard of it.

There are places that pay goat farmers to clear land for them,in places where machinery cannot go,and would cause damage to the natural environment.

Goats will not clear 3 million acres,but they could make a dent in the most critical areas,creating fire breaks that could slow the advance of wild fires.

Goats are credited for recently saving the Ronald Reagan library.

Goats do not have a strong odor unless too many are concentrated in one area,and it is the billy goats that have the strong odor.

They prefer low hanging brush and will move constantly, pruning as they go,nature's natural forest manager.;just like deer used to do hundreds of years ago.

I have seen areas cleared by goats,and the forest floor is cleared up to about 7 feet.

If given enough territory,they will not damage new growth.

There are plenty of goat farmers that would let their goats browse for free,turning scrub into marketable meat.

Depending on the density of the scrub and time of year and climate,one goat can manage up to 2 acres.(1 acre=approx 43000 square feet;210X210 ft).

I know goldfish will eat themselves to death,but I never heard of a goat doing that.

I have raised goats,have you?

How much experience do you have with goats?

Goats have very little body fat, and are a high nutrition food source.

I prefer venison (preferably elk,) or goat to beef or pork any day.

Not much experience to be called a goat farmer or herder, but Yes, We had Pygmy goats... as pets and they adapt and eat anything and everything... hence my comment of invasive... but the population would be cut from predators.

Our Pygmy goats we let them run as free range???,.. until we lost one,... our vet said we should control their eating. It wasn’t really from over eating, but more then likely from something that ate that wasn’t good for them. So then we put them in a corral, or put them on a line to control their intake and what/where they ate.

but each stomach that resembled a barrel....

Goats will not eat everything; Poke Salad,Locoweed,just to name a few. Free ranging goats will learn by experience what not to eat,and pass it on to their offspring.

Pets goats do not have the instinct to avoid bad food.The pygmy goats have been inbred to develop their characteristics,and like domesticated turkeys that will stand out in the rain and look up and drown, they have no instinct for survival.

Whatever the goats eat will grow back even better having been fertilized by the goat droppings.The key is to rotate the goats to new turf to control the undergrowth and prevent overgrazing.

Cattle farmers rotate their cattle to fresh pasture,and allow the previous ones to restore themselves.

Properly managed,they are self sustaining and profitable,and do more good than harm to the environment.

Ask people who have experience with goats clearing scrub and woodlands.

Thanks for the info,..but to my original post you responding to, where more then likely it would bring in predators.

Any large accumulation of livestock will attract predators.

Put a donkey or mule or a Llama with the herd for protection.They will accept the herd as their own and defend it.

There will be some losses of course but wild predators are generally afraid of humans unless they have been fed or people have left uncovered trash containers outside.

There is an instance on line where a mule kills a mountain lion.

Nothing is 100% foolproof or perfect,but if you wait for the perfect solution,you will never find it.It is a matter of priorities.

Where do you place human lives in your list of priorities?

I never said there’s nothing bad about it. Just saying.

I am sorry I thought the goats under discussion were politicians who wolf down any money put in front of them not ruminants.

ReReading the my post, it does sound interchangeable.,

So your answer is:There is no answer.Let 'em burn?

Eventually the problem will take care of itself when all of the charred land produces fresh new growth.That is until it turns into kindling and burns up again.

I am sure even the private land owners don't mind having their land and homes burned;They have insurance,right?

Cheer up,, maybe you could get a job as a goat herder....

How much damage to desirable plant life does a fire cause?Less than goats?

Goats don't kill wildlife like lizards,mice,voles,birds, insects;they simply love to eat.

Fire eats everything.

I don't anticipate clearing every acre,just the ones close to houses and business.

I also had goats,and they left behind organic fertilizer that spurred new growth later.

Many seed passed through undigested,encased in an all natural fertilizer packet.

Overall,the land was better for the goats having been there.

The cannot eat any higher than they can reach,which is around 6-7 feet feet;if there is a low hanging limb,I have seen them stand straight up and pull the limb down with their cloven hoof to browse on the leaves. When they released the limb,they had a nice natural pruning,same as a deer or elk would do.

If they used sheep,then Yews could help prevent forest fires:(And a hats off to Baxter Black for that one.)

Don’t be so hard on yourself...

Thanks Lyn. I just got back home from being evecuated from Sebastopol. I can tell you that goats won't be used in the area where both the Kinkade fire broke out nor the 2017 Fire that made it into Coffee Park. Those areas contain mansions for the super rich east-coast bankers and they do not keep goats or anything. They don't care because they only live there 6mo out of the year.

Second, some of these areas already have feral populations of pigs and such, but no wolves or mountain lions and are a problem.

Third, like Lyn pointed out, the surrounding lands are not owned or managed by local agencies. Most of the lands are managed by the Federal Government.

We have vineyards and they act as fire breaks. But that is only on the privately held properties closer the the valley floors. The mountains (Mayacamas) here are steep and rugged and covered mostly in chaparral which Nature designed to burn regularly. The area of Mark West Springs is known to the natives as fire alley as fires roar down that valley often and regularly.

You sound like the typical Californian, nothing will work, so no point trying....just watch everything go downhill...better to concentrate on what green themed PC act you will be performing for Coachella this year....

It's always somebody else's fault...what funding does it take to light a match? That's a pathetic excuse...

Wow... you don't get the difference between "light a match" and "controlled burn" ???

..."Tan oak groves have long been tended by indigenous people who still live along the banks of the forested Klamath and Salmon Rivers near the California-Oregon border. Preston, a cultural resource technician for the Karuk tribe, grew up watching her grandfather tend just such a grove—by burning it. Fire helped cleared away small pines, alders, and willows. It killed pests like weevils that ruin acorns, and allowed for new, straight shoots of hazel to grow that can be used for basket-weaving. It left a forest sentineled with sugar pine and oaks, scattered with meadows full of wildflowers and ferns.

Such scenery is rare in the western US today, a result of 1911 federal legislation that made it illegal to ignite fires on public forest lands. That legislation curtailed centuries of forest management by the native Karuk, Yurok, and Hupa people, who had long lived in villages dotted throughout these forests; a 1918 US Forest Service ranger’s memo declared that “renegade Indian” fires were rooted in “pure cussedness.”

A hundred years later, though, western science and policy-makers are rethinking the subject. Federal forests are now choked with dead leaves, brush, and dense fir trees, a tinderbox for wildfires whirling out of control. Between 1975 and 1985, wildfires burned just over 2,000 acres a year in the Klamath area. In the decade from 2005 to 2015, that number averaged more than 350,000 acres a year. So in a new policy, the Forest Service on July 27 signed an implementation plan for managing public forest lands—an agreement in which both fire and the Karuk play a vital role.

The first project will burn 5,570 acres near Somes Bar, California,"...

It's not rocket science....

https://www.wired.com/story/wildfires-native-tribes-controlled-burns/

My Grandparents used to live in Sebastopol. I have relatives that live in Geyserville and Healdsberg.

If you want to do something good for California and Mississippi,that will raise both of the states' average IQ level,you could just move to Mississippi.(That's a joke,son, a joke!-- Foghorn Leghorn.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVAdt5bH2tE

While watching the news It was shown that there were goats in some places that were employed eating the scrub grass.

IMHO No one can correct over half a century of improper land and wildfire management in just a few years. That's an inexact, quick comment on this complex problem.

They didn't realize that earlier plans to quickly stop every small wildfire would just make so much fuel in the terrain that explosive wildfires were inevitable. In many spaces I wouldn't be surprised to find that goat and other brush clearing herbivores could help. Asphalt based roofing and vinyl sidings work well for building materials in less wildfire prone areas like Long Island but maybe these materials should be banned west of the Rockies. No one approach will work everywhere.

We can spend millions cleaning up our California forests, or billions fighting the fires and their aftermath.

Democrats in Sacramento would rather do the latter.
/For shame.

All the corporate politicians, Dem and Republican want to do what thier corporate donors want. Screw the right thing, do the donor thing. You know what I mean?

This is the same every where in the world including OZ.

Actually, one doesn’t need to spend to cleaning up California forests. They just something like a lottery or permits to harvest it, that’s put contingencies that the private sector needs to follow that’s not ridiculous to follow.

How could this be managed? It can't, without more laws, and we know some here think that anything that protects nature against man, with laws, are needless. Not singling you out specifically. It's more for the anarchists among us. (Are you one?)

As I stated before,

"Of the approximately 33 million acres of forest in California, federal agencies (including the USDA Forest Service and USDI Bureau of Land Management and National Park Service) own and manage 19 million acres (57%). State and local agencies including CalFire, local open space, park and water districts and land trusts own another 3%. 40% of California's forestland is owned by families, Native American tribes, or companies. Industrial timber companies own 5 million acres (14%). 9 million acres are owned by individuals with nearly 90% of these owners having less than 50 acres of forest land."

I'd say that 90% of land owners would not want goats on their property. It takes a special fence to hold goats, and many think of them as a stinky, smelly animal.

that’s should be put up to discussions on how.... for forest as an example, sections put out on a lottery or bids, to be clear cut and replaced with new seedlings by the winning bid.

they are stinky, it’s their musk glands... how does one control that... permits for hunting... not that there’d be a rush for fresh mutton., I hate it... but there are a lot of people who do like it.

Clear cutting is as bad as a wildfire, or worse. Loggers leave lots behind, including rutted roads that are prone to erosion. Sure, you can stipulate that they clean the underbrush, but, that eats into their profit.

30 years ago, Weyerhaeuser forest products clear cut thousands of acres in Arkansas, and replanted pine trees. The land was overgrown with faster growing trees that competed with the pine seedlings, and won. They had not taken the humid environment and rain into consideration.

It might work in California, I don't know.

That’s a learning curve with the varieties.

on our woodland, we have high and low ground, with the low ground being more swampier.

we had scrub growth,.., so we (my grandfather) )cleared it off almost completely...

it was interesting of the growth, first came poplar, (a fast growing weed like tree) but we cut lumber out of it, then came the soft maple, a very good stand and yellow birch. For the yellow birch a lot of number 2’s and number 3’s grade wise, some select #1’s, we sawed the low quality on our mill,... (only because dad had cheap labor working for him)

But the we did remove soft maple at a profit and sold it to the larger mills. It’s all in management. Especially when you have skin in the game.

it was interesting the growth...

as far as management, it depends on the soil type and conditions,.,, some of the foresters, start out right out of the class room with no skin in the game... not good.

its a learning curve.

More likely they need less laws: laws prohibiting goats.

modernfarmer.com/2013/09/dear-modern-farmer-legally-raise-goats-city/

Yes goats are smelly, but not as smelly as a house with smoke damage or a burnt out house.

Farmers down south performed control burns on their woodlands every spring to prevent the undergrowth from becoming kindling for larger fires.

As quoted from you just above, part of the answer is in your question. Probably not every year, but prescribed controlled burns to get rid of underbrush. These control measures have been mentioned in previous comments. But the "antis" (and past habit) have prevented this.

We burn the underbrush every year here...

https://www.nps.gov/ever/learn/management/prescribedfire.htm

We use goats as well...

https://www.beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_cleaning_goats

We use goats in downtown Sebastopol for controlling blackberries (Himalayan non-native species). I am not against their use in this, it is just not the whole answer.

Goats are actually pretty cool critters, fun to hang out with, and can eat ANYTHING and it won't sour their milk. Sonoma County is a major AG county with lots of sheep and goats and dairy in addition to beer (Pliny the Elder, Lagunitas) and Wine.

Sebastopol is where Luther Burbank developed most of the commercial varieties of peas, beans, potatoes, tomatoes, etc, etc, that are grown as industrial commercial crops all over the world. Idaho potatoes were bred here! Red Delicious Apples. the list is literally hundreds of cultivars long. This area is VERY commercial, but also very sensitive to environmental changes. We are dependent on the health and well being of the ecosystem here.

Bodega Bay is a fishing town and depends upon salmon, who depend upon clear rivers (Russian, and Eel to the north). Regular fires do not destroy the hill sides and silt up the river system and kill the next (2) years salmon harvest. Wildfires impact the salmon for years.

The natives (Miwok, Wintou, Pomo) used to do controlled burns here. The Laguna De Santa Rosa sustained 10,000 natives in this area and so keeping the undergrowth controlled was necessary and had been for centuries.

Was this the inspiration for the post?

Easy Fire : Goats help save Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in...

See, it works...

Not for a liberal...

Thanks for the link.

At least some are applying common sense to the problem.I had not seen this before,but what inspired my posting was the repetitive nature of the fires,with no preventative measures taken to prevent recurrence.

Enough is enough.

My personal experience with goats is that they are good scrub clearing machines that will eat just about anything green,and even a few dead twigs and leaves,and are very low maintenance.Provide them water and a sheltering area and they will stay where you put them.They will not over browse an area unless too many goats are present and there is stiff competition for food.Getting the right amount of goats per parcel is important,and moving them when required.

There are probably plenty of goat farmers that would love to let their goats browse the areas free of charge.

Undefined: <...they...>.

It's probably related to sun cycles. So we shouldn't try to do anything about it.

If you know you have to eat an elephant,you do it one bite at the time.

I know there are no quick-fix solutions to the wild fire problems in California,but a little action is better than no action.

There is no one-size-fits-all solution to any problem.The plan must be adaptable to the immediate situation,as in Florida,the regulations are constantly changing according to the needs.

I live over 100 miles from the coast,but I put Dade County rated shatter resistant liners and shutters on my windows and solarium.No guarantees,but every little bit helps.

You hit a nail buddy! In the area where the 2017 fires happened, most of the structures that survived were stucco with tile roofs. That fire moved really fast because the wind was blowing embers ahead of the fire. (50+ MPH. You can't drive the road it followed that fast!)

If a house got an ember and it was a asphalt roof......POOF! it went up.

Now, the new construction is of fire resistant roofing and some places use stucco fencing as well.

Good points. GA from me.

Without the brush fires, the resident (Demo-Socialists ?) would have fewer reasons to raise taxes each year. So, no coherent programs emerge to manage the undergrowth, the sagebrush, etc. Hence, the nick-name of ''Taxifornia'' ...

Heaven forbid new construction be required to be, at least, a little more fire-resistant...

Save the bugs... Save the weeds... Tax the humans even more... That is the operating creed of (Flake-ifornia ?) politician-activists ...

Keep up the (good ?) work, Sacra-demento... The rest of the the country needs new reasons to laugh...

This has been going on for a long time and the Californians obviously approve, they keep electing the same democrats.

OR

Is this a case of "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds"?

I wonder if this is more of a NIMBY effect, drawback. If your backyard was not burned this season you're convinced you did everything right regardless of what, if anything you did to protect yourself. More than likely most who were not burned were just being lucky. If your backyard was burned then you blame others for not doing enough.

Redfred: Besides NIMBY, how about the "herd effect" which I have heard more often used in medical circles regarding the protective effect to the un-vaccinated among many who are vaccinated. Thus, if your neighbors take many anti-wildfire actions, then you gain some protection.

History teaches it's both: A hobgoblin of small Democrat minds, in Sacramento.

/And so it goes...

As an example of California priorities and mission statement,,,

The Sandalwood fire was started by a trash truck whose load caught on fire and the trash truck subsequently dumped the load onto a brush covered drainage ditch. The fire roared up a hill, then proceed to devour mobile homes in a mobile home park, one after another. A total of 76 homes were destroyed and several people died.

While watching the live news broadcast, I noticed that very little resources ( water / retardant ) were being used to stop the fires march through the community, whereas the bulk of the resources were being used to protect the homes of woodsy owl, yogi bear and bambi.

I called Cal-Fire and asked them why didn't they do water drops on homes in the park in an effort to stop the fires progression. Cal Fire said that if a home was ablaze, a water drop would make the structures roof collapse and although it could extinguish the fire, it was better to allow the structure to burn rather than having the roof collapse.

So, by following this " Policy " almost the entire park was wiped out.

Another interesting side note is that a developer was interested in developing land surrounding this park and now that the park has been eliminated, it will be easier for the developer to acquire that swath of land too.

Barren land covered with tumbleweeds, scrub brush and chaparral ( that yields zero tax base ) is more important than property tax producing properties.

You can't drop tons of water on the roof of anything and not expect it to collapse...maybe with enough altitude it would work, but then accuracy comes into play....

These probably won't answer your questions, but show much about the fires.

theguardian.com/us-news/live/2019/oct/30/california-wildfires-new-blaze-erupts-as-strong-winds-spread-live-news

nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Southern-California-Wildfires-205975171.html

latimes.com/california/story/2019-09-10/fires-california-wildfire-season-now

This is a complex problem abetted by extremely high wage, pension and benefit costs where each employee has an all-in cost of $60 per hour and often higher with double paid overtime. At to this the earth friend wackos in California that tolerate the build up of the lower tier of growth in the forest and you end up with canyons filled with dry tinder from the ground to 40 feet high. A fire starts and it makes a convective draw which distills volatiles from the needls and leaves which is flash combustible and can advance 100 feet in 2-3 seconds.

Why did they not trim the power groth every two weeks? Not at $50 per hour. What you have is a problem that California does not have enough money to sole - even if you 100% tax the people, they could not have enough to pay the workers to do the proper job on an ongoing basis. Politicians are the problem - paying too much money to the workers on 3-4 year contracts with automatic cost of living as well as full medical, dental, legal, pensions at 55-60 and any other coverage you can think of.

Many pensions are underfunded so extra taxes evey year to pay then for zero work - they are retired after all, why work? Yet most of them have another jobs.

Very broken

You make a good point. There is a solution, but the bleeding hearts don't believe in using prisoners as a labor force.

Put prisoners to work cutting back brush from May to November. They can live in tents and be on a "chain gang" like they did in the past. They'll enjoy the outdoors and the feeling of doing a good days work.

Other benefits:

1. Healthier inmates - lower medical costs.

2. Inmates learn a trade.

3. Inmates learn how to work.

4. Reduce prison population and costs.

5. Inmates feel good about something

I'm all for it, but the left says no.

A couple things to consider.

1. The Santa Ana winds are not always hot. The recent ones were not.

2. The winds dry out the air - that's a big problem 4% humidity dries out things really fast.

3. There's too much open space. How do you clear that much land - every year!

4. They don't know where the fire will start. Why? I think most are done by a sick in the head arsonist.

5. Many of the fires are not in forest land. Here in southern CA, most of the fires are in scrub - grasses, bushes and trees. Great fuel for burning!

6. We get almost no rain from May to December. There's no way to "water" the hills, so everything turns brown and dries up, except for the trees, which are not densely populated like in much of the US.

7. The winds can carry embers for over a mile.

8. Most people living in the hills do a poor job clearing brush on their hillside and around their home.

A strategy the firefighters use:

1. Protect people first. Then homes next. It's amazing how good a job they do protecting people and homes.

2. Allow the fires to burn themselves out in the hills. In addition start back fires to burn toward the fire.

3. At all cost, keep the fire from jumping a freeway - very bad!

4. Protect "special" buildings like the Reagan Library, Getty Museum, etc.

5. Evacuate people when the risk gets too high. Keeps the roads clear for firefighters to use.

One final observation.

Fires cost California in numerous ways.

1. Loss of productivity - people out of work due to illness or can't get to work.

2. Medical costs

3. Cost to rebuild

4. Tourism drops

5. Commerce drops - local businesses are dead. Restaurants are dead.

6. Equipment cost + maintenance and supplies.

7. Our precious water is wasted.

8. Roads are damaged/destroyed

9. Labor costs - police, firefighters and construction workers.

When fire season hits, there's a lot of overtime for firefighters. I know some that make over $300K per year!

How does the state pay for this? Of course, they tax the middle class. I just got my property tax bill for four properties - up 33% from last year. The base property tax didn't go up that much, it was all the "other" things - LA County sanitation dist ($487.88 per home on the tax bill + monthly charges), Light Maintenance Dist (at $104.52 per home), LA County Fire Dept (at $70.10 per home), Trauma/Emergency Service (at $72.08 per home), etc. One of my home I pay a 193% of the actual property tax for the "other" items. There should be law that limits the "other" items to 50% of the actual property tax.

In 1978, the voters approved Proposition 13, which capped the actual property tax at 1% of the assessed value with increases of 2% per year max. One of the main purpose was to protect people on fixed income from being priced out of their home from property tax hikes. The politicians found a loophole by putting "other" items on the property tax bill. There's no limit to how high the "other" items can be or how fast they increase.

I'm a huge advocate of going by the "spirit of the law" vs "letter of the law". If one of the main concepts of Prop 13 was to keep property taxes affordable, then the entire property tax bill should be under Prop 13, not just the 1% part - actual property tax.

Okay, I know I can't do anything about it, but I had to put my 2 cents in. Stepping off the soapbox.

I wonder how many new jobs would be created if California Cities and Counties allowed seasonal maintenence crews to mitigate underbrush-type fire hazards within buffer zones around populated areas?...

A lot of cities do have "maintenance crews". The problem is that those cities have very little wildfires.

Wildfires in mountain areas are very difficult to fight. Sometimes it's nearly impossible to get to the area. Take the area above Pasadena. The San Gabriels rise very quickly - I can take a trail to Mt Wilson that's only 7 miles in length and 5900 ft elevation gain. Rugged mountains that are too hard to maintain.

The two most desirable areas to live in So Cal is the beach and mountains. The beach had the cool summers and kick back lifestyle. Living the the mountains, we have beautiful views and we're closer to nature. People living in the mountains don't want a 300 yard swath of "cleared" land above their homes.

Finally, the scrub has a purpose. When rains come, the roots hold the hill from coming down. Cut back the scrub and the roots will no longer keep the dirt from sliding.

It's a tough one. When you live in the are and walk the mountains, you see how difficult it is to not only fight the fires, but also to do protective maintenance.

First, in any case, thanks for sharing the illustrative pics in Post 74.

Second, how do you define ''a lot'' of Cities ? ...

...and then, explain what difference it makes how many total ''crews'' are ''available'' if they are not also working in the most endangered locations...

In this area I know the cities of Pasadena, South Pasadena, Glendale, Burbank, Sierra Madre, Monrovia and Arcadia all have a maintenance crew. South Pasadena is now using goats to clear brush. Goats clearing brush in South Pas

The last area I lived in had very little (Santa Clarita/Castaic/Stevenson Ranch), though the county fire dept would come by and cite you if your home didn't have a defensible zone and your hillside wasn't trimmed.

When I lived in Ventura County, I know they have a brush clearance program, but there's so much open space, it's very hard to maintain.

Years ago, when I lived in Orange County, Laguna Beach, Corona Del Mar and Newport Beach all had a hillside maintenance program.

Knock on wood, but since I've lived here (2017), there have been no wildfires in the hills above me. In contrast, I lived in the Santa Clarita area from 2011 to 2017 and there were so many wildfires, including two big ones this year - the worst being the Tick Fire. And before Santa Clarita, I was in Simi Valley from 2001 to 2011 and there were some pretty bad wildfires. Just recently there was a fire behind the Reagan Library, just across the street from where I lived. I still remember the first fire, where helicopters dropped huge buckets into the water trap at the golf course and dropped the water on the fire - to save the Reagan Library.

Why don't the cities do a better job of protecting the homes from fires? In Ventura County, the cities as well as the county, do the best they can, but Ventura County has a slow growth initiative and there's a lot of open space. They can clear brush in an area, but a fire can pop up in another area. There isn't enough money and manpower to clear all the areas near homes. I think the same goes for Santa Clarita, but it's a growing city and even though there have been numerous wildfires in the area, the city council puts more emphasis on growth and controlling it. Many residents of Santa Clarita have chosen the area for it's cookie cutter, clean cut tract home, big box store look and feel. Some would call it sterile, as many master planned communities are. I tend to agree, but living in the canyon was far from living in a tract home environment - that's why we chose to live there.

What about the most endangered areas? Because of the huge amount of open space in So Cal, a plan can be made to clear brush in the highest risk areas, which many cities do. I have a theory in these wildfires. I believe the majority are set by some sick, demented, low life, scumbag - I'm being PG13 today. There's no way to "fight" an arsonist in So Cal. There's just too much land to protect. The best planning in the world can't prevent these wildfires. Reduce damage to homes? Yes, better planning and brush clearance will help, but when a hot ember can blow over a mile, how can this be planned and defended?

From the outside, it seems like there's a solution. When you live here and see how much open space there is, you understand how hard it is to find a workable solution.

This just in...

Trump tweet....

..."The Governor of California, @GavinNewsom, has done a terrible job of forest management. I told him from the first day we met that he must “clean” his forest floors regardless of what his bosses, the environmentalists, DEMAND of him. Must also do burns and cut fire stoppers....."....

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Newsom fires back...

..."You don’t believe in climate change. You are excused from this conversation."...

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What's climate change have to do with forest management? ...So Gavin is blaming these fires on climate change....?? ...and you wonder why everybody is tired of this crap...If the left didn't have Trump and climate change to blame for everything, they would be lost...

https://qz.com/1741199/trump-is-threatening-to-pull-federal-aid-for-the-california-wildfires/

Climate change and forest management? Hmmmm.

Ummm ...

Uhhhh ...

I'm thinking ...

Ummmm...

I got it! When you use machinery to manage the forest floor, it will burn fossil fuels and cause global warming. Or, the state could simply buy heavy machinery that runs off electricity! Like a Tesla grader!!! More taxed, so we can buy new machines!

Wonder if Trump really did say that, or one of the/his forest pixies?

Cleaning the forest floor is a no-brainer - near "civilisation", elsewhere let nature sort itself out - it has been pretty good at it before humans tried to micro manage it, in the last fly speck of history.

As for "tree plantations", forests earmarked for $$$$/lumber, make the company with the concession do it, the cleaning exercise, as a mandatory requirement BEFORE they start dropping trees and leaving debris on the deck. O.H. & S (Occupational Health and Safety - here) make you do it on construction sites, factories, warehouses, stores, etc., so why is a forest deck any different?

Here are some pictures of the scrub. You see how there's some height to the bushes/trees, but it's by no means a forest. These are photos in the San Gabriel's above Pasadena.

Looks like prime goat land....

https://herdsforhire.com.au/what-goats-eat/