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Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 7:19 AM

Hypothetical question:

What would happen to the world economy if All debt was forgiven?

Across all sectors, all countries,even to the lowest amount of corporate and personal debt.

Start with a clean slate.

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#1

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 7:25 AM

Then corporate would thrive that has a well staffed accounting and legal departments. As well as career politicians who would have an insiders edge edge (as usual) in investing.

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#2

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 8:10 AM

I know Andy Capp would drink to that.

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#3

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 8:12 AM

Not sure, but let's give it a go.

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#4

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 8:33 AM

All I know about economy is what Mark Twain said:

"The quickest way to double your money is to fold it in half and put it in your wallet"

It seems to me that debt self propagating is a net zero entity.

You owe someone,they owe someone else,who owes someone else,etc etc,and it forms a circle.

Put everyone in an imaginary circle,and start with any amount,that is available from the first person in that circle,who owes that exact amount to the person to his right.

He pays the person to his right.Now his debt is zero.

Continue this around the circle 'til you reach the beginning,at which time the first person puts the money back in his pocket,and the circle is debt free.

The money has circulated,but eventually it is a net zero sum.

Why not just form a circle.Very complicated with over 8 billion people and trillions of entities in the circle.

If all debt was forgiven,all would be zero balance.

I know economics is much more complicated,but does it really have to be?

Crazy?Sure I'm crazy,but I have a lot of fun in my mind.

This song explains it all:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykvIA8UUpv0

I may change my handle to HiRedNek?

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#5

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 9:40 AM

What would happen to the world economy if All debt was forgiven?

Well, if you wanted to buy a car, house, etc., you would have to save up your money to pay cash because the people (banks) that still have any money to loan would be loath to do so without a very high interest rate.

Any savings you have in the bank isn't just stored in a vault, it's loaned out to other people. There would be a run on the banks and if you're not first in line, you would be out of luck.

The economic disruption would make coronageddon look like a minor bump in the road, IMHO. Think 1929.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 10:02 AM

good answer,...

I like to add, the financial institutions are not that sound, the viability and stability in the financial institutions are not really base on money but in confidence. As an example, you mentioned 1929. After the stock market crash, there was a run on banks. After that, to reestablished the confidence, the government set up an insurance for the financial institutes to be federally insured as in FDIC to instill confidence.

also, by cancelling all debt,... that would include the debt thats owed to the people like ones selves.

now that takes a turn... and in my opinion, by canceling debt, would not be in the view of a capitalist economy, but an opportunity to change the fundamentals to a more socialist type control.

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 10:32 AM

They also established the TVA that put people to work.

The hoover dam was built in this period,ahead of schedule and under budget.

If given a choice between starving or working,most will choose to work.

Countries are no exception.

Sorta like the butterfly effect.

Putting even a small amount of people to work has a domino effect because no one is an island,even if you live on one.

We have plenty of infrastructure the needs repair and upgrading.

No need for any able bodied,able minded person who is willing to work to be unemployed.The key part here is"willing to work".

And you are right,money has no intrinsic value,it is a perceived value only.

The same with gold or any precious metal or mineral.The shiny things hypnotize.

A man with millions crossing the desert that has not had water in two days will give all has has for a drink of water.

In that case,the perceived value of the water is greater than the money.

I am fortunate to live in a village where everyone looks out for everyone else.

A culture of kinship and brotherhood has evolved over the years.

The egotistical and selfish ones moved away,seeking the shiny things,but some came back with a different attitude and stayed.

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 10:47 AM

I believe that CCC describes better that people would rather work.

going off topic, remember, TVA is supported by taxes from people being employed.

As far as infrastructure work that needs to be done. I would give some thought in a prison trustee type program. With a big stick

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#19
In reply to #10

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 5:06 PM

Everyone is spending someone else's money in one way or another.

You may work and earn it,but you are paid with money from someone else,and likewise,they are.

Even those that get money without earning it are getting money from someone else.

Even those that produce nothing,like services,are still making money.

Can inflation be controlled by the number of services created?

What kind of an economy will we have when everything is automated?

We will have to tax the machines that make the products so that we can buy the products made by another machine.

What keeps things moving is the difference in the perceived value of the different products.

The $10 tax on 10 widgets may buy 20 whatchmacallits from another machine.

Someone else may want a widget bad enough to pay more than $10 dollars for it,so tax from the whatchmaycallit comes into play.

In essence,economy is like picking yourself up by your own bootstraps.

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 5:17 PM

The point I’m getting across, that money doesn’t really physically exist... digitally yes. It never really did.

Sure it says so when you ‘log on’ to your bank account on the web.

Everyone’s money only exists in confidence that it’s there.

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#25
In reply to #20

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/10/2020 7:32 AM

As I stated "money" has no intrinsic value,it has only a perceived value which varies.

If the streets were paved with diamonds they would have no value.

There are probably enough to do this,but De Beers controls most of the diamonds in the world and releases a controlled amount to the market.This is good business and can control the market price of diamonds.

This is ok for such luxury items,but price gouging by drug companies is unconscionable.

I am sure they can justify their prices to their board of directors,which have a vested interest in the outcome,but there is no moral justification for raising the price of some drugs by 5000% overnight.

I am sure that the once common drug used to treat malaria and leg cramps (chloroquine) was turned into a prescription-only drug to enhance profits,not to benefit the people.

EpiPen and Phenergan suppositories are just a few examples of corporate greed.

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/10/2020 7:46 AM

$40 pretty cheap as drugs go....

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#15
In reply to #8

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 12:40 PM

Yes, back then, people had enough pride that accepting a check without working for it would be an insult.

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 12:48 PM

It goes deeper than that, to be classified 4F after December 7, 1941, some couldn’t live with that.

a different generation.

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#9
In reply to #5

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 10:43 AM

I agree that you have a good answer here. A blanket forgiving of debt everywhere will lead to an economic collapse. However, there is a reason why the Dickensian era debtor's prisons have mostly gone away. Sometimes it is better for all parties to just accept the fact that financially a bad investment was made.

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 10:52 AM

Corporate bankruptcy may be frowned upon (usually by armchair economist) in this country, but it gives builders and innovators another chance, but in places like Italy. Where it’s individuals that are held liable and not corporations, that does stunt risk which also impedes growth.

Even though some CEO’s in this country are held accountable for misdeeds.

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#13
In reply to #11

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 11:26 AM

Why did you have to slight Italy. They've had more than their fair share of problems lately.

It looks like you still grasped my point. That Italian farmer that just bought a vineyard on a volcanic slope once made the finest wine in all of Italy. (The ground is so fertile there and already terraced.) Then the presumed dormant volcano erupted and the vineyard turned into ash. Nobody including the farmer (debtor), banker (lender) or bank depositors (silent investors) could predict this seemingly good loan would turn bad. Insurance probably won't recover everybody's losses. The remainder should probably just be waved as gone.

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 11:46 AM

Why the over sensitivity? Truth too cold for you?

I had to do some repair work for an Italian made paper making machine. Where I needed a cast component... I did some research on it to get a replacement part or some some information on part for make or buy and found out the company had gone bankrupt.

and that’s how I found out about Italy’s bankruptcy laws.

the rest of your post is fluff, that’s not worth grasping.

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#18
In reply to #11

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 4:47 PM

Sorry about the digression...

it was pointed out to me that I need to add details to the bankruptcy where there are quite a few people who don’t understand it and think it’s cold hearted.

The ways the laws are set up this country, a corporation whether a ‘C’, ‘S’ -type corporation, or even a L.L.C. the government views not as a person, but as a separate entity. As along as the owner(‘s) or investor(‘s) is kept at arms length, they will not be held fiscally liable for debt incurred if the company declares bankruptcy.

And the reason for that, starting and running a business is extremely high risk, and the government does not what to impede that, because th US is based on a capitalistic economy. The government is protecting future tax revenue. And and to lower that risk, since the corporation is viewed as a separated entity, it is also viewed as the the sole liability of debt.

and the reason for this, is that the risk taker, can begin over, without being burden for the rest of their lives with the bankruptcy or failed business venture. And a lot of people don’t realize that. THAT is empathy and compassion for the person that takes the risks and gets another chance of being productive in life compared to an armchair quarterback saying you shouldn't have done that.

unfortunately, those same people that plea compassion for say that poor grape farmer that fell on bad luck in Italy. That is the Norm for businesses in Italy where that farmer is doomed to a life of debt.

as far as a comparison between the vineyard grower in Italy, would be the family farm in the United States. And any farm now, whether it’s small family farm, their farm is set up as a separate entity, with its own checking account. For the very same reasons to avoid a terrible life, if the farm fails, It’s the farm that fails and not the owner.

The Biggest thing I see is, normally the same person which complains about a business owner that had 4-5 business bankruptcies in his career, they hold it against the owner, even though that very same business owner can have 70-80 business being successful employing 1,000’s of people and having a multi-billion dollar revenue generating empire. and be an asset to the community.

so the bottom line is,... I’m not coldhearted to the person in this country because his business failed. And the reason for that is because it was the business that failed, not the person.

now, as for as that poor vineyard grower in Italy who, planted his vineyard around an active volcano, and his life’s work was wiped out, sure, you have to realize, the farmer already knew land around a volcano is highly productive. He also k ew the risk and he took the risk, he won some, and he lost some. And if he can’t start over,... probably because of the bankruptcy laws, and will live a life of debt, maybe,... and that’s a big maybe,... someone else, maybe, will pick up.

Where in this country,... if something similar happened, if the farmer (businessman) that has the fortitude, he can start over. Because it’s been done... not so much with a volcano, but where a tornado wipes out a farm (business)

now, I feel bad that people are put into this situation,... but I don’t waste time and energy feeling bad for a business.

And if you have a problem, stop giving riddles and start a whole new thread on what you really want to talk about or start or join support group for yourself.

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#23
In reply to #18

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/10/2020 6:15 AM

posted in error

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#24
In reply to #18

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/10/2020 6:18 AM

IMHO:

There will always be those that misuse the rules to their advantage.

For instance,a company that is deliberately polluting the ground water and rivers for miles around will eventually declare bankruptcy and the taxpayer will have to pay for the cleanup.

The company doing the polluting knows from the start what they are doing,so they spin off as a separate corporation from a larger company before the state(s) crack down and make them start cleaning up their act.

The spin off corporation was designed to fail and take the fall.

Sure,they will make a big public showing of what they are doing to clean up their act,but eventually they will fail,stating that they did all they could,and now are broke and must file for bankruptcy.

An example is a case from North Carolina where a big corporation is in the middle of this debacle.They will eventually follow the scenario I have outlined.

This type of premeditated corporate misdeeds should fall back on the board of directors,and should affect their pocketbook,the only thing that matters to them.

("I just want to get my life back!" BP executive after the Deepwater Horizon disaster and the loss of 11 lives.)

Another problem is the matter of judges with an infirm sense of fairness or justice or impartiality.

Consider Monsanto:If pollen from their genetically modified corn blows over into your field of corn and your corn has traces of theirs,the corn does not belong to you,it belongs to Monsanto.

Monsanto modified corn has been found as far away as Mexico,because corn is mostly wind pollinated.

Likewise with their genetically modified trees.And the list goes on and on.

This was determined as fair and just by an unknown judge.

Most judges are honorable people of high morals and ethics but one bad speck of greed,like pollen,can spoil many bushels of corn or acres of forest,and pollute many waters.

I am not pointing fingers, and this is only my opinion,but I once overheard a lawyer say that "A good judge is one that stays bought." Sadly, I would have to agree.

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#27
In reply to #24

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/10/2020 8:03 AM

Well having a corporation to keep ones at arms length only goes so far. When one attempts to intentionally use it as a shield while doing dubious things, are paying a price... sometimes.

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#31
In reply to #24

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/22/2020 11:22 AM

For instance,a company that is deliberately polluting the ground water and rivers for miles around will eventually declare bankruptcy and the taxpayer will have to pay for the cleanup.

It doesn’t have to be a company... here is a case where the company was following it requirements and its the career politicians returning favors by putting incompetent donors to their campaign in high responsible positions.

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#29
In reply to #18

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/19/2020 6:54 AM

And if you have a problem, stop giving riddles and start a whole new thread on what you really want to talk about or start or join support group for yourself.

It probably fortunate that the Admins had to ‘softened’ my point to the member it was directed to. Even though the original was duly deserve from the vile PM I received that member, all because I couldn’t read his mind on what he really wanted to say, that was totally off topic.

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#22
In reply to #9

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 10:04 PM

Agreed, debtors' prison is a bad thing. Personal bankruptcy won't break the system. There has to be an escape hatch where someone can quit the game, but everyone else can still play.

Money is a funny thing. If you have a chicken and need a bushel of wheat, without money you would have to find someone with a bushel of wheat that needs a chicken, a very inefficient process.

Money is only a bookkeeping device so that we can easily swap goods and services, and as long as everyone believes in it, like the rule of law, it works. Once this belief is lost, the spell is broken and a wad of Benjamins becomes just a bundle of paper.

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#7

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 10:24 AM

Simple: people would lose interest in it!

All money in one's hand is represented by a debt to the issuer of that money. So it would become worthless because it is of no value to anyone.

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#12

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 10:54 AM

Being a engineering forum, I thought this may belong in the break room,... but thinking about it could also be in the general discussions with out too much of a stretch.

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#17

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 2:49 PM

One man's dept is another man's fortune...

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#21

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/09/2020 8:11 PM

You no pay, we breaka' you leg...

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#28

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/11/2020 12:33 AM

A similar notion was proposed by libertarian Murray Rothbard around 1990 [?]. His idea was simply to repudiate the national debt and let the chips fall where they may. That might make for an interesting master's thesis or doctoral dissertation. Just who does hold all that debt, and would be screwed if it were welshed on?

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#30

Re: Debt Forgiveness

04/21/2020 5:10 AM

All debt is forgiven?

Before you go and destroy something that is working, best at least some have some alternative ready to propose in its stead.

What exactly do you propose to work in the place of money (and property rights for that matter)?

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