Do Corporations Deserve our Tax Money?

Could you show some independent proof of that claim?Is this by percent of profit or percent of total federal/state taxes paid?

...."taxpayers with incomes of $200,000 or more paid well over half (58.8%) of federal income taxes, though they accounted for only 4.5% of all returns filed...

.... As recently as 2001, the effective corporate tax rate was 27.6%.....

https://www.thebalancesmb.com/all-the-taxes-your-business-must-pay-399045

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/10/06/a-closer-look-at-who-does-and-doesnt-pay-u-s-income-tax/

Ok, thanks for that info;But that is individual income tax,what about the corporations themselves which are the ones seeking support?

Corporations paid over 91 Billion dollars less in 2018 (from 35% to 21%).

And now they want a bail out?

If they want to find sympathy,they can look in the dictionary between Sh*t and Syphilis.

Meanwhile,some large corporations actually got rebates totaling $billions.

What is wrong with this picture?

Laws are passed to "assist" big corporations in lowering their tax burden. How is it that Chevron paid $0 income tax? Nvidia paid $0 too. Or Starbucks paid $0 also.

As long as politicians have their hands in the wallets of the corporations, we won't get tax reform or fairness.

The worst part is that those same corporations cry about needing money when they wind up in financial trouble.

I don't see anything wrong with letting them fall. The entire C suite should go, as well as the board. Black list them for bringing down a once viable company.

..."All businesses must pay tax on their income; that is, the business must pay tax on the profit of the company (the income of the business less deductible expenses). How that tax is paid depends on the form of the business.

Small businesses (sole proprietors and single-member LLCs), partners in partnerships, and S-corporation owners pay taxes through their personal income tax returns. The concept - called pass-through tax - is the same for all of these business types.

Sole proprietors and single-member LLC members pay taxes by filing a Schedule C included with their personal return

Partners in partnerships and multiple-member LLC owners file a partnership business tax return for information purposes only. The individual partners or LLC members pay income taxes their share of the income of the business, by including this income in their personal returns.

...if your business operates in a state that has state income tax, you must set up a system to collect, report, and pay state sales tax. ...

....If your business owns real property (real estate), like a building, your business must pay property tax to the local taxing authority, which is usually the city or county where the property is located....

....Excise taxes are paid by a business for certain types of use or consumption, like fuels, and other activities like transportation and communication.

Excise taxes are paid to the IRS, either quarterly or annually, depending upon usage, using Form 720. ...

....Like sales taxes, some employment taxes are collected, reported, and paid. In this case, the taxes are paid to the IRS and the Social Security Administration.

Employment taxes are those paid by the owner of a business for several types of taxes based on the gross pay of employees. These include FICA taxes (for Social Security and Medicare), federal and state unemployment, and federal and state workers compensation taxes.

Some of these taxes (unemployment tax, for example) aren't collected from employees, and they must be paid completely by the employer. "....

Not to mention the cost of compliance for all the state and federal government regulations that exist...essentially a tax on doing business...

You seem to want to believe that companies in the US aren't paying their taxes...if that's true you are entitled to a 10% finders fee...but sadly it's just not true...

...."First, a quick look at Amazon's financial statements shows it does pay taxes. In 2017, Amazon paid close to $1 billion in income tax. In 2018, the amount jumped to $1.18 billion, accounting for local, state, and international taxes."...Feb 22, 2019

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stephaniedenning/2019/02/22/why-amazon-pays-no-corporate-taxes/#51da281d54d5

I cannot connect to your link because I will not disable my ad blocker,and I really don't want to know that badly anyway.

Nothing we can do about it either way.

Different sources show different results.

I guess it is all in how you look at it.

It is what it is.

I still order from amazon anyway.

Solar,

The taxes they paid were not income tax to the IRS. They paid payroll tax, which every company with employees needs to pay. It's not an income tax. Yes, they paid state and local tax, but they're taking resources from the state, so they should. They're also taking resources from the country, but they're not paying and that's wrong. Also, using the loophole to compensate employees without paying payroll taxes - it's become abusive and needs to change. Poor business decisions are made, because personal "bonuses" become too important of a consideration in the operation of a business. Here's an excerpt from the link in your post:

"Employee Stock Compensation. A move away from cash compensation to stock-based compensation for employees is the third driver of its tax breaks. Tax deductions increase as the stock increases. While this can certainly create adverse incentives, it is important to assess the benefits it creates relative to the cost. While such a tax policy can introduce misaligned management incentives, it also generates incentives for management to drive the best possible return for investors."

Solar,

Those are the basic rules, but there are lots of loopholes in the tax law. On top of that, there are tons of tax credits which only corporations or the top 0.1% can use. I know about many, but I can't use them. From windmills to capital investments.

Here's something to consider:

"The most consistently profitable companies in the Fortune 500 only pay about half the statutory federal income tax rate—a fourth pay less than 10 percent. Some even get refunds from Uncle Sam—30 companies have enjoyed a negative income tax rate the past three years despite making $160 billion in pre-tax profits." Excerpt from https://www.goodjobsfirst.org/large-profitable-corporations-get-huge-federal-tax-breaks

You seems to be calling deductions, loopholes....? ...and 80% of deductions, or loopholes if you like, go to individuals....

I think you're misunderstanding.

Amazon paid $0 income tax. They used loopholes to do this. In the article you cited, it shows how they did it.

Also, income tax revenue is one issue, but the bigger one is when CEO's manipulate the share price by using cash to buy back shares of stock. Then when they get in trouble and need cash, they run to the government for help. They keep the huge bonuses that they got over all the years from buying back stock. If they and all the others in the company gave back the bonuses, I'd also feel a little different. I wouldn't like it, but it would make things a little more equitable.

How is it manipulation when they are using profits from the company to buy back shares? If they took the money and used it to improve sales would that be manipulation as well...You don't make any sense to me....Improving the profitability of the company is the CEO's job....How he does it is of secondary concern...

These businesses are being challenged by hardship through no fault of their own, your implication here that the CEO's are somehow responsible for the corona virus is preposterous....

Please re read what I wrote. NEVER did I say or imply that CEO's are responsible for the Corona Virus. Only some conspiracy theorist would make that up and I'm not one of them.

If a CEO misuses corporate funds to buy back stocks when he shouldn't, that is a problem. If a company is in great financial shape and has so much cash that they can't put it to good use, then yes, they should buy back stock. But, if they have to borrow money, then they shouldn't buy back stock. This is common sense. But in the corporate world, with GREED being an emotion that's not being controlled, this type of thing happens. When a board approves of the CEO's actions, because it increases share price - that shouldn't happen.

Sit on a board of directors and let me know how ethically the board members vote.

You seem to be saying that CEO's are buying back stocks with bail out money, can you show any examples of this? ...because it's the first I've heard of it....What board do you know of that is making unethical recommendations?...You sound like you're proselytizing for the left here...and using their tactics of broad brushed claims of wrongdoing with no substance or proof....

Here's an article I just pulled up. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-16/u-s-airlines-spent-96-of-free-cash-flow-on-buybacks-chart

CEO's buy back shares of stock during good times - the airline industry used up 96% of their free cash to buy back shares. Money that should've been put aside for a rainy day. Instead, the CEO's were thinking of their bonus money above the financial security of the company.

It's all about greed! Shareholders vote with the board, because the stock prices keep going up. The board approves share buyback, because it help them become more wealthy. Until the unthinkable happens - a recession hits. They they cry to government for help?

As I've said before, make the company sell shares of stock - enough to get the 96% of cash back. Then the company can use the cash for it's operations during the recession. And if the company needs more later, then we'll take a look, but until then, no bailouts.

Loopholes, you need to be more precise,... was it a capital equipment investment deduction? Capital equipment depreciation?

i get the feeling your calling loopholes, a legitimate tax deduction for expansion.

Here's something that you may know. I find it very interesting and upsetting, but it's reality and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it and I understand.

"The giving of stock options to employees, as a part of their compensation, is another avenue that has helped companies reduce their total tax bill. When the options are exercised, the difference between what employees pay for the stock and its market value can be claimed for a tax deduction.

Finally, some industries such as research, oil and gas drilling, ethanol production, alternative energy, video game and film production, are privileged by the federal tax code to receive certain tax breaks."

You have to be pretty big to take advantage of these "tax breaks".

"Over the eight years, more than half of the total tax subsidies, which totaled $286 billion, went to just 25 companies."

I'm saying that it's not illegal for corporations to lobby to have these "tax breaks" added to the tax laws - maybe unethical, but not illegal. Nor is it illegal for corporations to use these to their advantage - the laws are there and they're using them to their advantage. An analogy would be if I went to my tax guy and he said I'll give you two options. Write a check for $42,000, because we don't want to take advantage of certain tax deductions or write a check for $500, because we're going to max out your tax deductions and credits. I'd be a fool to pay $42,000.

I'm saying that our lawmakers shouldn't have written these things into law. The lobbyists are taken care of, because they're tied to the "right" people. I've never tried to lobby for something - I don't think I'm connected enough to do so - most likely not connected at all! However, is it right for a lawmaker to give favors to his/her friends? Or to accept financial gain from it - whether it's direct or indirect?

I hope all of us here can understand that it's morally wrong for our congressmen to repay favors by writing and voting on laws.

Well, for what every reason... for example an owner of a small company (lets say it generates $100 million /year) wants to retire yet he doesn't want to sell to his competitors and wants to keep its legacy, he can let his employees buy it. It's called ESOP

"An employee stock ownership plan (ESOP) is an employee benefit plan that gives workers ownership interest in the company. ESOPs give the sponsoring company, the selling shareholder, and participants receive various tax benefits, making them qualified plans."

You know that has nothing to do with big corporations using their connections to lobby for tax laws.

You're a smart man, so you understand how stock buybacks work.

Why is it okay for a CEO to use stock buybacks to prop up the share price, just so he can increase his bonus?

Why is it okay for that same CEO to cry to his congressman when his company is in financial trouble and the reason for the financial trouble is that he used the free cash to buy shares of stock to get a bigger bonus?

In a world of fairness, the CEO should be required to have his company sell all the shares they bought to generate cash - do this first, before asking the government for help.

I know you can see the lack of ethics in the way the system works. And remember that the piper will have to be paid one day. Maybe it won't be our generation, but we'll leave a horrible mess for the next generation.

I accounting and tax laws are boring to me... I could never see how a loss is a profitable in tax laws.

On a slightly different note... when you make billions in profits and pay no taxes like GE.

Can you believe that GE was once one of the bluest blue chip stocks? Amazing how a company can go down the tubes so fast!

My opinion,... That appears to happen, when stock holders demand quick high returns so they bring in a CEO, who does that by giving its future a death sentence for short term profits. Which he does, he get a huge bonus, and the leaves the company whither on the vine as he is hired elsewhere to do the same.

I'm amazed that AT&T has been able to hold on. They've wasted a ton of money on failed purchases, lawsuits and poor purchases.

1. Failed purchases - Cost them $3B when the gov't told them they couldn't buy T-Mobile https://www.cultofmac.com/136415/only-winner-of-failed-att-merger-is-t-mobile/

2. Paid $85B for Time Warner content. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/06/25/fresh-off-its-time-warner-win-att-is-buying-yet-another-company/

3. Paid $49B for Direct TV. https://www.wsj.com/articles/at-t-explores-parting-ways-with-directv-11568841544

4. Another $1.2B for Leap Wireless https://about.att.com/story/att_completes_acquisition_of_leap_wireless.html

5. And another $1.6B for Appnexus https://www.mediapost.com/publications/article/323645/att-completes-appnexus-acquisition.html

I told my better half to move her 401K money out of AT&T after they announced they were buying Direct TV for $49B.

To me, it looks like AT&T is buying anything and everything that doesn't make sense. And to think that the gov't would allow them to buy T Mobile?

We're out!

The problem with corporate deductions is they are written mostly by lawyers.

Corporate tax lawyers are some of the best around.

And corporations heavily influence our politicians.

Wow, that's amazing. I just looked at the publishing date 1726! That's one profession that's had a huge mistrust tied to it for such a long time.

Thanks for sharing - this really caught me off guard.

What you write is true and they still want bail out money. Bail out money must be paid back should be paid back might be paid back will be a burden we leave for the next generation.

It's the $1200 payout to individuals that don't pay any taxes that are getting a gift, from the top 1% if you like....

Not necessarily. The $1,200 payout is for average people or lower income. The rule is that the person must have less than $75K AGI for 2019 (or 2018 if they haven't filed yet) with it phasing out as income goes over $75K. If someone didn't file a 2018 or 2019 tax return, they don't get it. Many retired or low income people don't file a tax return, because they don't have to. So, they won't be able to get the money.

I don't see a problem with this payout. That's because the government forced people to stay at home. The $1,200 isn't coming from the top 1%. Instead, it's money that the government is borrowing.

People on Social Security will get a check whether they file a return or not....

..."If you're typically not required to file a tax return, you still can receive a payment

Many who normally are not required to file a tax return -- including senior citizens, Social Security and Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) recipients and railroad retirees -- will not need to file a simple tax return to receive the payment, the IRS said.

Others, including those who haven't filed a 2018 or 2019 return because they are under the normal income limits for filing a tax return, can use the Non-Filers tool to get their payment. To get started, go to the IRS' Non-Filers: Enter Payment Info Here site and tap the Non-Filers: Enter Payment Info Here button. As part of the process, you'll enter personal information and, if you want to receive your stimulus check by direct deposit, banking information.

The Social Security Administration said it is working the Treasury Department for payments for Supplemental Security Income (SSI) recipients.

The IRS said SSI recipients and those who receive veterans disability compensation can either use the Non-Filers: Enter Payment Info tool or wait as it continues to review automatic payment options for these groups."...

...."What about Social Security recipients?

The Treasury Department said that Social Security beneficiaries who are not typically required to file tax returns will not need to file an abbreviated tax return to receive a payment. Instead, the IRS will use the information on Form SSA-1099 for Social Security beneficiaries who did not file tax returns in 2018 or 2019

When will the checks will go out?

The first payments will go out April 13, the IRS told CNET. If you've not set up direct deposit with the IRS, it may take longer and the government will mail your check. Here's what we know about tracking your stimulus payment so far."...

https://www.cnet.com/how-to/coronavirus-stimulus-checks-up-to-1200-arrive-soon-are-you-eligible-how-much-will-you-get-and-when/

https://www.aarp.org/politics-society/advocacy/info-2020/coronavirus-stimulus-checks.html

Awesome! Thanks Solar, I'll pass this on to some people I know.

..."Our nation's small businesses are facing an unprecedented economic disruption due to the Coronavirus (COVID-19) outbreak. On Friday, March 27, 2020, the President signed into law the CARES Act, which contains $376 billion in relief for American workers and small businesses."...

Why aren't you squawking about this relief package?

https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/loans/coronavirus-relief-options

I think it's a good program. Small businesses didn't overpay their CEO's by running up stock prices or getting the company into debt. Small businesses didn't waste cash or borrow money to manipulate share prices.

$376B isn't even close to $5T. I can accept $376B - heck, I'm okay with double that amount, but $5T to buy Junk bonds because they've fallen in value - I can't accept that.

Personal income taxes collected 2018 over 5x more than corporate.

Here's the raw data from the IRS:

SOI Tax Stats at a Glance

Summary of Collections Before Refunds

by Type of Return, FY 2017

Type of return Number of returns Gross collections(millions of $)

Individual income tax 150,690,787 1,838,403

Corporation income tax 2,050,182 338,529

Yeah the majority of taxes from individual income tax is from small business owners....most people pay very little, if any, federal income taxes...If you're making over $200k a year, you are probably a small business owner...

It's in our nation's interest to promote businesses that can provide jobs to our people...we are in competition with other countries, if you want a strong economy we need large corporations to operate here in the US, and if they can operate in other countries cheaper, with the same resources available, and proper logistics, then they will....

Why do you think we had companies moving to China....cheaper to operate...We have to compete, we don't have any choice if we want a strong economy and jobs for people...

I think you're right. Small business owners pay a lot of income tax. They're not big enough to get all the special credits, but make enough to hit the high tax brackets.

I think we should promote small businesses. I am definitely for that!

Also, I agree that large corporation are needed too. They help us as a country compete in the world economy. Moving to China to build things cheaper. We've done it many times in the past. Japan after the war, then Mexico, Central America and South America and now China. What I don't like is seeing a Home Depot or Lowes move into town and slowly the True Value and Ace stores close down.

I don't see that happening here...we have True Value and Ace hardware stores right next to Home Depot and Lowes stores...

...."A Washington, D.C.-based private equity firm has agreed to take a majority stake in Chicago-based True Value Co. that would shift the hardware retailer away from its cooperative roots.

The agreement would give Acon Investments a 70 percent stake in a new True Value operating company, with the remaining 30 percent owned by the member retailers who currently own the cooperative. A portion of Acon’s investment would be used to return 70 percent of retailers’ invested capital, along with promissory notes and dividends, totaling about $229 million, to those retailers.

“The concept of a co-op, which I’m very respectful of even though I’ve asked shareholders to move away from that, is that individuals came together as a group to do things they couldn’t do on their own,” said John Hartmann, president and CEO of True Value. “The unfortunate thing is it traps their investment, their equity, in the company.”

Current retailers who will retain a stake in the new True Value can use the returned funds to invest in their business or use as they see fit, something Hartmann thinks can “spawn incredible growth.”

Day-to-day operations for current retailers will not change, and they will continue to have access to the True Value brand and services including merchandising and marketing support, he said."...

This is from 2018...

https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-true-value-private-equity-deal-0316-story.html

A True Value hardware store owner averages an $83k salary...

Where I lived from 2011 to 2017, we had two Home Depot stores, two Lowes stores, 0 Ace Hardware stores and one True Value. The only non-big box store was on the other end of town where there were no big box hardware stores. Population in the area is 250K.

In the area where I have some rentals, we have three Home Depots, three Lowes, one True Value and one Ace. Population 320K.

Where I live now, we have 0 Home Depot, 0 Lowes, one True Value and four Ace. Population 184K.

They are planning to build a Home Depot about a mile from where I live. I can see three Ace stores closing, with the True Value and Ace remaining, because they're just far enough away to survive.

My friend opened a True Value in the suburb where I grew up (outside of Chicago). It was a very nice store, well done and great staff. He believed in top quality customer service and his customers loved coming into the store. Yet every year, he went deeper and deeper into debt. The bank finally pulled the plug and he had to shut down. He later told me that he made a mistake believing that people would choose quality and service over big. When he was there, he was 1 mile from a Home Depot, Lowes and Menards. The customers he had were very loyal, but there weren't enough to keep the business in the black.

Here's a link to his store. It's been gone for 4 years or so. https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x880fc7ebd0e73fad%3A0x2e1ffd6baf12d488!3m1!7e115!4shttps%3A%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipODBP--Wb92Wz0e69b5lq3Z6MHO-Fah35pfXi4j%3Dw285-h160-k-no!5sglenview%20true%20value%20-%20Google%20Search!15sCAQ&imagekey=!1e10!2sAF1QipODBP--Wb92Wz0e69b5lq3Z6MHO-Fah35pfXi4j&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi0qdPu0t_oAhUDUa0KHQkyBwgQoiowC3oECBMQBg

The same thing might have happened with any other competitor....The Ace hardware stores that have survived here have found niche positions that serve the needs of their customers....so I would say the inventory you stock is just as important as your attitude...It seems everybody that fails has an excuse that blames somebody else...

Hi Solar,

You seem to be an ethical person - maybe to a fault, but that's a good thing.

I have a statement that may or may not surprise you, but it's true. Years ago, Price Club (now Costco here in CA) sold misgraded diamonds. There is one diamond grading standard in the world, GIA. Any diamond with a GIA certificate is considered to be accurately graded. AGS is another diamond grading lab with an excellent reputation. Then comes EGL, which has offices in New York, Los Angeles and Israel. You could take a standard mall type 1 ct K I1 diamond and send it to all three labs and get three completely different grades. GIA would grade it K I1. Los Angeles was the closest and would grade it J SI3. New York I SI2. Israel H SI1. In the business, we'd throw away a New York or Israel EGL certificate - worthless to us.

Then there's IGI. We would laugh when someone tried to sell us a diamond with an IGI certificate. What's wrong with IGI. First, they would certify a diamond while it was still in the setting. There's no way to see what's under the prong, so a smart jeweler could put the flaw under a prong to hide it. Second, there's not way to accurately measure the weight. If I sell a pair of earrings that I say is 1ct, it can be 0.951 ct on a scale and I'm okay. But if I sell a pair of 1.00 ct earrings, it has to be 0.9951 ct on a scale and I'm okay. IGI would certify a diamond at 1.00 ct while it was in the setting. There's no way they can guarantee the diamond is at least 0.9951 ct - impossible. Their grading was also way off (error on the side of the seller). The diamond above could be certified by IGI to be a G VS2. So, would a company who strives to be ethical sell diamonds with deceptive grading? If they were going to add a new line, you would think they'd want to do their due diligence.

Back in the mid/late 90's, I had a client tell me about the Price Club jewelry display. The price they told me was below true wholesale cost- wow, could it be that good? So I went there. I saw the IGI certificate. Then I saw the disclosure which said they graded the diamond while in the setting. The clerk let me see the ring, which I then pulled out my loupe and saw how deceptively the diamond was graded. Just to be sure, I looked at every diamond in the store and not one was even close. So, the so called bargain was a rip off - they were selling poorly cut, overgraded, inexact weight diamonds to the retail customer.

Just one minute ago, I went to the Costco website and pulled up this diamond ring - another too good to be true. Again, it is - IGI deception. Over 20 years of this - that's just wrong. https://www.costco.com/emerald-cut-1.0-ct-vs2-clarity%2c-i-color-diamond-platinum-solitaire-ring.product.100334951.html

Oh my! I just did a Google search and I came up with this. Costco is something else!

https://money.cnn.com/2017/08/14/news/tiffany-costco-lawsuit/index.html

Tiffany has to do it or run the risk of the use of the trademark of Tiffany.

Reminds me of the term spam.

some in-laws of my stepdaughter family worked at Hormel, her sister-in-law was part of Hormel's Amy of corporate lawyers. She was talking about the time when the term Spam was being used to describe unwanted electronic/digital solicitation.

the corporate lawyer at the time didn’t react fast enough, (none at all actually) went after the use of word SPAM as unsolitated email. Which is a registered trademark, like Tiffany’s.

The judge at the time, declared Hormel waited to long and that in the electronic industry, the term Spam was too well imbedded to change. You need to act when you first discovered it, not wait 6-12 months to act.

needless to say, the attorney was canned because of that. And any new company that uses the term Spam, Hormel addresses with a vengeance.

so Tiffany has to act, as soon as they found out, to protect its name, otherwise, Tiffany would create a precedence by not reacting or reacting fast enough.

I had no idea they tried to stop "spam" from being used.

Not too long ago, I read that sites like Google, Yahoo, Facebook, etc were not liable when one user libels another. Legally, the site doesn't have the responsibility to police the users. I had read that this was done to expand the usage of the internet.

I also read that since Google gives their products away for free, they only have to provide a minimal amount of "safety". I've heard others tell me that isn't the case and I'm not an attorney, so I don't know if it's true. Just something I read.

Hormel, They tried to stop it... but failed... and the reason it failed is the judge said they waited too long... that the term ‘SPAM’ engrained itself already in the computer industry. Hormel fired the lawyer that was suppose to protect its copyrights, trademarks and especially name brand.

thats why whenever someone tried to use the term ‘Spam’... they are Johnny on the spot, like white on rice,

Remember the old Monty Python skit about Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, bacon and eggs, Spam. Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam and Spam!

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2hwqlw

I should clarify, Hormel guards the term SPAM, from other businesses trying to use it to sell, their business goods. Except when it s in movies and Monty Python skits.

Now I can sleep at night!

I've looked at Cosco jewelry before, it seemed overpriced and misrepresented, but what would you expect from a discount store, no surprise....When you go looking for a bargain you better know quality when you see it or you are the one getting taken....One doesn't look for high quality products in a discount store, you go to a higher end store, just common sense, and you still need to have knowledge of the item so that you recognize quality when you see it, but you are less likely to get taken when shopping at a place who depends on it's reputation of quality products to stay in business...

Solar, you know that the people on this site have above average intelligence. The general public buys on impulse and they get taken far too often.

Back in the mid 90's, Costco sold Rolex watches. A Rolex is much better than most people will ever own. In fact, most people would love to own one! If you talk to someone in the fine jewelry business, they'll tell you that there are many companies who make a finer watch movement. If you haven't seen a Rolex movement, do a Google search. I remember the standard was a cal. 3035 - men's Datejust. It's a bulky, heavy movement. In watchmaking, there are two goals.

1. Thin, but durable and accurate.

2. Highly complicated (tourbillion, repeater, chronograph, moonphase, etc).

The Datejust has only two complications; automatic winding and date. It is not highly complicated. It is also not thin. Look at a Patek Philippe cal. 240! A work of art!

Getting back to my point, Costco sold Rolex watches (Grey Market) without authorization from Rolex, in large quantities and without a warranty. They made a strong profit and the buyer believed he was getting a Rolex from an authorized source.

Yes if this belongs, then at the most stretch belongs the break room,...

And that also includes the upper tax brackets and the false provado (for the most part) of ‘they need to pay their fair share’.

It is,in a sense,social engineering.

Ok... Stretch Armstrong...

Large corporations pay a much smaller amount of taxes than you think, with many paying $0 and some getting tax credit money from the government. Amazon.com paid $0. Starbucks paid $0. And even Chevron paid $0. 100 of the Fortune 500 paid $0. GM, Nvidia, Salesforce.com - goose eggs! Yet Bezos made $1.7M at Amazon. Mr. Johnson = $14.3M Mr. Wirth = $33.1M And all these companies paid our government $0 in taxes!

If you loan money to a poorly run business, there's a good chance the borrower will default. We Work is a great example. Their bonds are rated Junk, so anyone who is looking for investment grade should run for the hills. Yet our government is buying ETF's that may have We Work bonds in them.

Something to consider. Bonds have a market value = what the market will pay for them. A US 10 year treasury has a very, very, very low chance of default, so the risk is low and the return is also low $0.72/yr for every $100 invested. Bank of America probably won't go under, but their bonds are paying $3.27/yr for every $100 invested. Or you could invest in We Work bonds and earn $16.20/yr for every $100 invested. This differs from the bond coupon rate - for the B of A 2028, you get $6.75 for every $100 bond you own. To buy the bond, you have to pay $128, not $100 which is the face value. That's because the market thinks it's a safe play. The We Work 2025 bond pays $7.85 per year for every $100 bond you own. Since it's a very risky play, you only pay $36 for the bond, not the $100 face value. The market prices in risk - it's an efficient method of determining the value of a bond.

When the Fed comes in and sets a higher floor by buying Junk bonds for above street value, then the risk/reward equation is skewed and people can either take advantage of it or if they aren't careful, they can lose a lot. I am not crazy and I don't want to short bonds, but I could let the Feds push up the price of Junk bonds and then short the bonds. There would be a big return as the companies wind up going under. One can only assume that some large hedge funds and bond traders are licking their chops as the Fed blindly enters the corporate Junk bond world and makes some very expensive mistakes.

What's wrong with C-Suite and Board Members taking responsibility for their actions? If they screwed up and have put their company in jeopardy, why should the government bail them out?

Too Big To Fail bailouts have to exist when we as a nation discuss the fallout from an industry going under. Back in 2008, we had to save the banks. I'm not happy about it, but we had to. If we didn't, our monetary system would've collapsed and the backbone of our country would've been broken.

Airlines are not TBTF. And when an airline goes under, it just goes under on paper. They typically re-negotiate with the bond holders. The equity holders go down the toilet or if they're lucky, the bond holders allow them to take 10 cents on the dollar. The airline remains in business with a solid financial plan and a clean set of books. American, United, TWA, Delta, Eastern, Frontier, etc. All went bankrupt and either merged or recovered.

Bottom line. We've already put $5T at risk, with some of it never being paid back. I've heard numbers reaching $10T - that's one heck of a lot of money. That leaves a burden of $76,923 for each of the 130M full time employees in the US. Buying Junk bonds with these funds isn't right. If the average person knew that the government is using federal funds to pay for the mistakes of CEO's, they would be furious.

In reality, most people won't hear about this and even if they did, they wouldn't understand.

A challenge for anyone who believes the government should bail out these corporations. Put your money where your mouth is and also buy these Junk bonds - alongside with the Fed! Tickers are HYG and JNK.

Seriously, please don't buy them. They are junk! And a disclosure, I am not playing in this market. I just think this is terrible and a waste of federal funds.

Junk bonds are not all the same as is your implication here....and I can think a lot more risky places to put your money....the key to investment is always diversification...

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/02/052202.asp

Junk bonds are not investment grade - that's all it is.

Bond rating companies like S&P and Moody's puts a rating on the company debt. As the risk of default increases, their rating decreases. There are many different criteria they use:

1. Too much debt.

2. Declining revenue.

3. Declining profits.

4. Increasing expenses.

5. Declining industry.

6. Missed debt payments.

7. Owe too much in taxes or back taxes.

The rating companies are warning the investor to be careful. They see something that you may not.

Investing in Junk bonds could be lucrative, but if your tolerance for risk is low, keep away. Investments by our Fed should be safe. Buying treasuries is safe. Buying collateralized debt could be safe - the time to buy is when we're coming out of recession and the collateral is valued low, but will increase. So, when the Fed backstopped the mortgage market, they took a good risk. Buying a Junk bond ETF now is risky, because we don't know when this is going to end and we don't know what it's going to look like on the other side. I wouldn't like it if they did it as we were emerging from the recession, but I wouldn't make as much of a stink, because a model could be made and the risk would be quantified. Right now it isn't, so it's gambling.

One could invert the question and ask: Do non-corporate entities deserve corporate tax money?

Please elaborate.

I've been on SS for almost 5 years, owing no income taxes and being owed no refunds. For tax year 2018, I didn't even have to file, and probably not for 2019 either (but I haven't checked if the regulations have changed again).

That means that if my wife and I get $1200 each, it would have to come from other taxpayers, some of them corporate. We could find ways to use such funds, but we don't particularly need them (unless the SS future goes siwash).

It's not anyone's business here; it's your decision to file or not to file to get the $2,400.

Many years ago, I messed up big time an wound up with over $150K in credit card debt. Many of my associates and some friends told me to file for BK and walk away. I made a conscious choice to pay it - at least to pay it as long as I was able to.

As my friends would buy new cars, houses, go on vacations, etc, I didn't. After about four years or so, I paid it all off! When people asked me why, I told them that every single cash advance slip was signed by me. It was my promise to pay it back - there was no provision that said - "if you don't want to honor your signature, then don't" At times I questioned my decision, but to this date, I feel it's something I needed to do and I'm glad I did.

Per the spirit of the law, I honored my signature - honored my name.

Whatever. <yawn>

Has any reader got any Engineering questions instead?

Not including yours,... no

Write formula showing the similarities of money movement to electron or fluid flow.

All must be in motion to be effective,so the analogy should be a genuine engineering question.

Savings would be similar to a capacitor,the fed similar to an inductor,and the balance between the two an ideal economy.

There are more similarities for me to list here but I am certain someone on this site will elaborate and reduce it to a formula.

Comments?Suggestions?

A corporation is a money generator that feeds the entire circuit of people....the CEO, together with the Board of Directors, is the control panel that contains proprietary software that can only be rented because it is constantly upgraded and tweaked for optimum performance...The government fee's paid is the loss of efficiency through resistance in the circuit...

Many of the top engineering school graduates were scooped up by Wall Street. Why? because they could create software to implement trading models - called quants. When a market moves fast, it's most likely the computers doing the trades. They move fast and with huge volume. Some are scalping programs which look for small moves, but they trade a lot of shares and they move so fast - faster than a human. So they're guaranteed a profit. Other programs look for news - they are programmed to look for a word in a POTUS speech - flattening - that could be one of their key words. When it's mentioned, they go long quickly. Maybe they scalp $0.02 per share, but with the volume they're trading and the number of times they do it, the total profits are huge.

How does someone do this? I'm not sure, but if someone had the insight, they could do well.

Generally, Income tax in the UK is the tax where deductions are made at source, which means at the point where income is credited but not transferred to the concerned person and is thus, also known as tax deducted at source.

Site: https://theangeltrust.com/know-about-the-income-tax-in-the-uk/

It's done here too - our paychecks have taxes taken out. Though here, a person has to file an annual tax return, where typically either one gets a refund (overpaid taxes) or is required to pay (underpaid taxes).

A simple consumer tax is the most fair way I can imagine to collect taxes.

This system will never be implemented because too many fingers are in the cookie jar of the people's money.

Consume more;Pay more.This would be similar to a simple series circuit.

However,in reality,there are lots of parallel connections and low resistance circuits that increase and divide the total load unevenly.

The total load should be the sum of all loads in the circuit,but when money is borrowed and injected somewhere in the circuit it will eventually result in financial chaos.

The government cannot give away anything that it did not take away from someone else.

The government produces nothing,it simply redistributes what it gets from the taxpayers.

Voters will always vote for the candidate that promises them the most benefits from the public coffers.

Over 51% pay no taxes,and the ratio is getting more unbalanced every day.

"Bye bye miss American pie" will be the new national anthem.

Tsk! Tsk!

There's been a lot of debate about a tax based on consumption. I think the main detractor is that people will spend less = GDP won't grow = our country will be in trouble since we need growth the pay for our debt = the gov't needs more tax income = either more growth or higher tax rates (or both).

Miss American Pie - take a second and think about how much our country has changed in the 50 years since Don McLean sang that song!

Here's a little secret. This verse was originally written, but not sung. It was the last verse in the song. Change comes from repentance, which was necessary for God to give the world back to us - but a different world, which we have to relearn how to do things. Kinda like the changes we saw in 2020 and so far 2021.

And there I stood alone and afraid
I dropped to my knees and there I prayed
And I promised Him everything I could give

If only He would make the music live
And He promised it would live once more

But this time one would equal four
And in five years four had come to mourn
And the music was reborn

I started this thread in April 2020. Think about how the world had changed since.

Stock market recovers, then goes to new highs. Junk stocks rally and defy gravity. Bitcoin at $51K/coin! The economy is still partially shut down, with HOPE we'll someday get back to "normal". BLM riots across America! Siege at the Capitol. New POTUS - who expected this in April 2020! Defund Police! Another round of stimulus in December and another in the works. Covid deaths keep coming. No Thanksgiving or Christmas gatherings. Happy New Years at home. No Rose Bowl Parade (huge thing for us)!!! Rose Bowl game in Texas??? Zoom video meetings vs live. Teledoc. Over 12,000 small businesses gone and never coming back. Millions unemployed. Real Estate split - commercial down the toilet and residential in rural areas booming. Exodus from CA to TX, NV, AZ, ID, MT and TN! And now, Texas frozen and utilities turned off for over 3M people!

When will we get back to normal? Or better yet, what will the new normal look like when we get there?