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Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/19/2020 7:33 AM

Several years ago,I theorized a charging system in highways that would charge a vehicle while in motion using a series of embedded coils.

The vehicle would be topped off as it passed over the coils,no need for a full charge.The rapid surge of power could be captured by a super capacitor and fed to the battery at a rate acceptable by the battery.

Imagine never having to stop and recharge your electric vehicle or your drone.

The technology did not exist at that time,but progress has been made recently that will make this possible.

It also could make it possible eventually to deliver power to homes,with each home having a different frequency:A receiver module on the homeowner's property.

Imagine power to EVERYONE,even to the most remote locations. Small Localized wind and solar grids for a community,no poles or underground wiring.No storm interruptions of power.

Billing could be done wirelessly also by upgrading the smart meters that already exist.That should satisfy the utilities' profit concerns.

Finally,Tesla's dream of wireless power to the world may be achieved.

Check out this link:

https://techxplore.com/news/2020-05-wirelessly-electric-cars.html

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#1

Re: Charging at a distance while in motion

05/19/2020 8:00 AM

...them, of course, there is also the "Scalextric" solution:

...which does this for road transport:

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#2

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/19/2020 4:46 PM

If the coils were only on downhill slopes, it might help. Otherwise, conservation of energy says that moving the car over the coils would require power, thus canceling any gain. No perpetual motion machine. But it's easier to just put regeneration type motors in the car, thus when it decelerates, power is transferred from the wheels to the battery. Besides, the government (thus the people, since the gov't only has the people's tax money) should not be expected to pay for such an installation in the pavement.

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#10
In reply to #2

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/19/2020 11:44 PM

Would such a system be made to function if the coils were installed on light standards.

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#21
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/20/2020 8:05 AM

your statement is flawed. if the energy was to somehow only come from the energy created by the vehicle then you are correct. but the energy is added from an external source, in this case the power grid (or other) embedded in the ground and when the vehicle passed over with it, with its own coil, the energy is transferred, or created.

i don't know the validity of the IP but at face value, from what i read, the energy is external, captured by a super cap, and as a cap slowly discharges to the batteries, the energy is stored.

so from the way i read it, no "conservation of energy law' was broken.

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#3

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/19/2020 5:38 PM

I dunno, it doesn't seem like there would be enough time in the 100 ms or less that the car is in range of the 4 ft transmitter to transmit much energy (60 mph = 88 ft/sec). The average electric car requires about 30 kwH per 100 miles or about 1080 kJ per mile. If you have 10 transmitters per mile, each would have to transmit about 1 MW of power to the car for the 100 ms the car was within range to replace the 1 MJ required to power the car.

I would advise those folks using pacemakers to take a different route!

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#23
In reply to #3

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/20/2020 8:46 AM

From what I can determine from the link,the output is tuned to a specific distance range.Outside of that range the power drops quickly.

A massive surge could theoretically be absorbed by a capacitor(s) of sufficient value,and discharged into the vehicle battery or power system at a usable rate.

Secondly,why limit it to 10 coils per mile?Why not 100?

Expensive?Yes.But so is tunnel boring,but look at the long term payback.

A Faraday shield for occupants would suffice to protect occupants.

Of course this could not be achieved overnight,with massive changes in infrastructure and power distribution.

But like when you are tasked with eating an elephant,you do it one bite at a time.

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#4

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/19/2020 7:46 PM

This is what you call DOA...a liberal pipe dream of absurd proportions....

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#16
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/20/2020 7:31 AM

Not sure HiTekRedNek counts as a liberal but maybe on your scale he does!!

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#27
In reply to #16

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/20/2020 10:40 AM

I don't think SE's remark was directed at me ,but rather to the researchers that the link points to.

I have never know SE to launch a ad hominem attack on an individual.

He is too inteilligent,refined and dignified to do that.

I am not quick to dismiss new technology, for many times I have had to drop back 10 and punt.

It may in fact be just a pipe dream,but I will reserve my opinion on that until I smoke it over with a fresh bowl of Apple pipe tobacco(with maybe a pinch of AG) in my Sherlock Holmes Meerschaum, Carved Calabash Gourd Pipe.

( I didn't inhale")

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#22
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/20/2020 8:31 AM

The pipe dream depends on what you are smoking in your pipe.

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#5

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/19/2020 10:06 PM

Minds me of a system I've seen in Asia. Lots of small windmills along the highway that get spun by the suction as the crowded vehicles pass. Bit like putting a wind generator on front of the car. I'm deliberately missing your point - every change in energy state results in a loss.

". Small Localized wind and solar grids .....No storm interruptions of power". huh ?

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#18
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/20/2020 7:38 AM

I think you've missed the point of roadside windmills - they have nothing in common with the mystic windmill on the front of the car.

Passing cars generate wind currents. Currently this energy is lost. The roadside windmills harvest this lost power (plus any natural wind) improving efficiency (of the car engine) slightly in an overall society way. Yes there are large losses in transformation and I am not convinced its a good use of resources but in remote areas if it generates enough power to drive street lighting and road signage then its a good idea as it saves hundreds of miles of cabling. Its like the idea of piezo crystals in the tarmac. They wont generate huge power but enough to light street lights. Mostly the energy they use is harvesting wasted energy that cars and trucks already transmit to the roadway.

The windmill on a car to regenerate power is an idiotic trope that no one actually suggested

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#6

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/19/2020 10:28 PM

I believe Nikola Tesla had the idea of wireless power but the huge power mobs killed it. When the money was pulled from Wardenclyffe the "backers" buried the idea.

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#7
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/19/2020 10:39 PM

The concept died of natural causes.

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/19/2020 11:12 PM

The backer got tired of paying with no results achieved. I believe when Tesla's plans caused the power plant in Colorado Springs to burn down it was the last straw.

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#11
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/20/2020 12:05 AM

El Paso

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#9
In reply to #6

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/19/2020 11:43 PM

Back in the 70s there were experiments using microwave energy to power a small hovering craft flying over a microwave dish but the energy loss was so great as to make it unviable.

Up the power and it would work but the bird life would definitely suffer. Still set it up near a chicken farm and get KFC to sponsor and you get ready cooked chickens if you don't mind the taste of burnt feathers. Sort of cooking ones own goose.

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#12
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/20/2020 12:43 AM

For that to work you would have to create a huge electrical field like standing in the field of a Tesla coil, everybody's hair would be standing on end all the time....

Everybody would have to have short hair cuts....and everything would be clingy....

Not cool..

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#51
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/25/2020 9:45 AM

Wardenclyffe lives on in small rural backyards ...

...and curious pimply faced teens...

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#13

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Hybrid Flywheel-Electric Practical Version

05/20/2020 1:37 AM

Hybrid Flywheel-Electric Urban Commuter Cars

Imagine an urban setting with roads that traditionally cause cars to start and stop a lot. Imagine cars with motor/generator/flywheels which can slurp electric power from contacts embedded in the road when the car is stopped exactly over the contacts. Imagine that the car can extend mating contacts down to connect to on-demand-only power contacts embedded in the road. Imagine that you accelerate the car's flywheel with roadbed grid power while stopped at a light. Imagine that the contacts retract and the flywheel drives a generator to power wheel hub electric motors to accelerate the car once the light turns green. Imagine that the car now must stop at the next traffic light. Imagine that this car can dynamically brake, dumping spare energy into its flywheel. Imagine that the car can sell spare braking energy to the grid from its flywheel once it stops. Imagine that the grid can sell that energy along with some grid energy to another car currently stopped at the light to(just in time) store enough energy in its flywheel so that it can easily accelerate away from the light(flywheel buffered, cross-car dynamic braking) and power it to its next traffic light. Imagine that it would work with all off-the-shelf technologies except for the non-moving car electrical contact hardware(easier than Russian moving electric trolley pantographs) and the command and control software.

Imagine that we could do all this today. Oh yeah, we could ! And without some fantasy "safely charge kwh scale energy at a significant distance while moving" magic coils that I read about half a century ago in Mechanics Illustrated and still never see.

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#14
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Hybrid Flywheel-Electric Practical Version

05/20/2020 5:05 AM

Let me ask what happens to the flywheel in a vehicle crash? All of a sudden you have a lot of kinetic energy with nowhere to go.

Several things could happen, the car could keep going until the energy is dissipated. The flywheel could keep going exiting the car with much car- nage until the energy is dissipated.

The whole lot could just turn into a giant mincer. Imagine two flywheels vying for destruction. What could have Wylie Coyote with one of those.

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#17
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Hybrid Flywheel-Electric Practical Version

05/20/2020 7:32 AM

Co-Transporting Stored Energy is ALWAYS an Issue

The same thing happens in a crash that happens with any vehicle carrying around its own energy. A gas tank, for example, can rupture and start aN hOrrible conflagration as the brits used to say about horseless carriages. That is one reason that it is preferable to be carrying the minimum amount of energy to reliably get you to the next slurp. Rather than "with nowhere to go", with a flywheel, generally, you know precisely where the energy is headed, straight out in a thin disk from the spin path. You can line that thin target area(btw flywheel housing placed low in the vehicle for lower cg) with fibers(perhaps yellow kevlar but more cheaply pink glass) attached to locally available structural mass(flywheel housing) and expend a great deal of the kinetic energy into chaotic micro deformation of those fibers. With liquid fuels, the splatter gets pinto-ed from your gas tank under the trunk to all around your passenger compartment until you learn how to redesign things to reduce those chances. Even with the redesign you are still faced with maximum trip energy storage magnitude with practical liquid fuel management. Roadway spurts of liquid fuel into vehicles could be designed but that spurting sounds like too much like the design of a city-scale hacker-terrorist ready-made air-fuel bomb to me(pronounced with shock wave staccato emphasis.)

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#20
In reply to #14

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Hybrid Flywheel-Electric Practical Version

05/20/2020 7:50 AM

what could happen to 15gals of a flammable liquid in a vehicle crash?

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#26
In reply to #14

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Hybrid Flywheel-Electric Practical Version

05/20/2020 10:20 AM

In the research of flywheel motors in vehicles,there are 2 flywheels rotating in opposite directions,enclosed in a very robust carbon fiber composite enclosure.It would be very hard to steer the car with only one spinning flywheel.

With two,they cancel each other.

Unless the enclosure was totally destroyed,and the flywheels separated and loosed,there would be no "car-nage".

The flywheels were constructed with many different materials,with the weaker,cheaper materials near the center and the stronger more expensive ones near the outer surface.The rotor was a wound rotor with Kevlar on the outer edges.

It has been several years since I first read about these flywheel energy storage devices,and I am sure by now with the advances in graphene and carbon nanofibers the speed can be increased and eventually the price brought down.

One of the problems they encountered in a vehicle was the control of power to the magnetic bearings due to the road vibrations.

There are very close tolerances between the rotor and stator,and these rotors turn in excess of 100,000 rpm.They weigh only about 10 pounds each.

For home or industrial use,they could be buried vertically in a concrete encasement,similar to a water well,supported by magnetic bearings,which could be permanent magnets in this stationary position,no external power required.

The weight and diameter could be increased,and the velocity reduced.

Energy of a flywheel battery is up to 90% efficient.No decrease in performance regardless of the number of cycles.

Some delivery vehicles in Europe use flywheel batteries,with regenerative braking with good results.

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#36
In reply to #26

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Hybrid Flywheel-Electric Practical Version

05/21/2020 12:21 AM

Hooray for Flywheels for Short to Intermediate Lifetime High Energy Storage

HTRN, I am happy to see that you appreciate a lot of the advantages of flywheels.

If you mount your car flywheel axis vertically then there is no issue with steering. If you use the counter rotation approach to flywheel steering opposition you will pay for it in enclosure strength requirements and in massive bearing forces leading to stored power sapping friction. The forces cancel but do it through the bearings. Luckily, vertical axis mounting is optimal for other considerations(suspension, cg, door/window interference,...) besides steering.

I saw the SciAm article decades ago regarding laminar flywheels and flywheels with stretchable material toward the center and expensive, high tensile strength materials near the rim. While reading the articles I realized that there are two major reasons to even have the materials near the center. You need to couple the energy in and out of the device and you need bearings or some means to support the forces on the rotor. I came up with ways to couple the energy in and out and also support the rotor without central physical material. Lubricant is also something which negatively affects the performance of flywheels. It would therefore be worthwhile to minimize or eliminate the requirements to lubricate.

Everybody and his second cousins realize that evacuating the flywheel housing leads to a longer energy storage lifetime of flywheels since rotating in a fluid(eg. air) eats power through friction between the fluid and the rim. Pumping down a housing is difficult if petroleum lubricants are used within the housing. The obvious lubricant to use in an evacuated envelope is PTFE but with clever design, lubrication requirements for various rubbing contact phenomena can be minimized or eliminated.

Stationary flywheels will have serious bearing forces if not mounted with the flywheel axis parallel to the axis of Earth's rotation.

While it is true to a first approximation that cycle count does not degrade performance, flywheels do tend to leak energy over time to subtle friction sources often related to mechanisms necessary to get energy in and out. For example, lubricant friction on gears to couple mechanical energy in and out can make many flywheel designs have a very short lifetime for their stored energy. Techniques to eliminate hubs(any rotating materials more central than the rim) can, in some cases, also reduce or eliminate some of these specific frictions.

The helpful gorilla in the room is that energy storage in flywheels is a square function of the speed of the material in the rim. This fact can lead to some very impressive energy storage to mass and energy storage to volume ratios. These ratios are compelling parameters for roadway powered car design energy buffering. Flywheels are also already in use for high short term power, low weight, low volume, dynamic power factor correction and brief UPS applications such as bridging the time between power loss and auxiliary generator startup.

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Hybrid Flywheel-Electric Practical Version

05/21/2020 6:23 AM

The articles I read at the time used no mechanical bearings at all.

The rotor was suspended by electromagnetic forces horizontally and vertically.No lube required.

The internals were in a high vacuum,similar to CRT's and high voltage vacuum tubes back then.At the scale of individual atom removal,around 10-6Torr.(1Torr = approximately 1/760 atmosphere).

The problem when used in a moving vehicle was the random bumps encountered on the highway.Since the clearance tolerances are very tight,it required a lot of power to allow for worst-case scenarios.Adaptive and predictive power application to the magnetic bearings was not practical or effective at the time.

There have been many advances in permanent magnets since then, (40+ years ago), and magnetic bearings could now possibly be powerful enough to support the rotor in any direction.

The reason for the use of different strength materials was the increase in G Force as the diameter increases.Outer diameter required more strength.

At 100k rpm that is a lot of G force.

Since weight is at a premium in a vehicle,the rotor size and weight had to be minimized,thus the light weight,high rpms.

There is always a trade off of some sort in any application.

Any mechanical components external to the generator will cause losses,same as with any other energy storage device,but the flywheel itself,internally,has very little losses.

Mounting a flywheel vertically in a moving vehicle would cause problems with stability when hitting a bump or going over a hill at speed(Think about the movie Bullet).

In a vertical stationary application,many of these problems do not occur,unless in a earthquake prone area.

With them buried, the danger of external damage during an explosion is minimized.

Flywheels have been used for many years on industrial machines,including steam engines.The old John Deere,nicknamed the"Poppin Johnny" tractors had a massive flywheel that gave them immense torque from relatively weak horizontal 2 cylinder engine.

Many industries were powered by steam driven line shafts that ran for many hundreds of feet and flat belts dropped down from pulleys to each machine.

The flywheels on these monsters was over 20 feet diameter in some models.

Some places even used steam shovels or steam train engines as back up power supplies!

We have come along way,and we have far to go,but we will get there eventually,if we do not blow ourselves to bits,or succumb to the real top predators of this planet,the viruses.

No one can predict accurately the next 100 years,except maybe the sci fi writers.

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#40
In reply to #37

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Two Hybrid Flywheel-Electric Lemonade Versions

05/21/2020 5:34 PM

When Life Gives You Lemons, Make Lemonade

"Mounting a flywheel vertically in a moving vehicle would cause problems with stability when hitting a bump or going over a hill at speed(Think about the movie Bullet)."

The "problems with stability" about which you complain must actually be "excessive" tilt stability. A flywheel remains approximately upright naturally when standing on its axis. One could plausibly design a unicycle car using a vertically oriented axis of rotation power storage flywheel. The rubber on the top of each of four treaded wheels moving through the air with a 100% duty cycle at twice the speed of the car is a significant component of the friction which must be overcome to propel a traditional car down normal roads. Cross-country-freeway vertical-axis-flywheel unicycle cars could experience one fourth of this specific friction.

If one likes road slumming or offroading with the traditional four turning wheels, active suspension of a car with a powerful vertical axis flywheel could briefly retract, say, two of them to hop a small rise in the road without violently impacting the tilt of the car. Say a 4" high concrete road fragment thrust upward from the road surface due to excessive solar heating, a common problem plaguing Louisiana and other southern state departments of transportation who do not perfectly design or adequately maintain some of their rural concrete road surfaces. Your Bullet example showed huge rapid variations in end-on road slopes resulting in the driver view often switching between staring into the nearby approaching road surface with staring into the open sky. Fortunately, much smaller than car sized bumps are far more common than exaggerated end-on slope variability roads(full car-scale-plus San Francisco bumps.) Most roads with excessive end-on slope issues use speed control, excavation, grading, switchbacks and other techniques to minimize the crazy effects(flying, bottoming, sparking, etc.) The action you saw in that movie demonstrated crazy effects with traditional passive suspensions which were most likely beefed up to prevent catastrophic failure(eg. axle fracture) so that they could complete filming.

Flywheel right angle reaction to forces acting to shift the axis are well understood and can be predicted and accommodated. The fact remains that generally tilt perturbing forces have less effect on a gyroscopically stabilized craft than they have on an unstabilized craft. It is "rocket science," but our suspension engineers can rise to the challenge(and make lemonade from the lemons vertical axis flywheel life gave them.)

Put the lime in the coconut and drink them both together. Learn to power with your car flywheel and then you'll cruise better.

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#41
In reply to #40

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Two Hybrid Flywheel-Electric Lemonade Versions

05/22/2020 10:16 AM

I have never considered our technology equal to personal transport needs. Maybe in time, but not yet. We did have a bus with a flywheel for dead starts but the flywheel proved to be a maintenance problem. Rough roads. So it was discontinued less than a year in. I still think large trucks of the delivery type and busses in cities would benefit from this tech the most as those dead starts are when the diesel engine belches out the most pollution. We currently have E assist busses that use electric motors for the dead start and three full EVs.

I think a combo of reliable flywheel and electric would be the ideal in large inner city vehicles. The flywheel could power the dead start and save the battery for when it is most efficient, steady state running. The flywheel would be "recharged" during braking. Bearings are still the sticking point though.

https://cdpcorp.com/vycon/

these guys are doing stationary power and we had them in just before CoVid hit to give us a quote on our data center back up. Cool switchgear.

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#45
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Two Hybrid Flywheel-Electric Lemonade Versions

05/23/2020 8:36 PM

I remember reading an article article about storing energy hydraulically way back in around 1980 or thereabouts.

It used a standard full size Ford LTD,removed the transmission and replaced it with a hydraulic pump/motor and spherical reservoir and hydraulic motor.

The ICE motor was cycled as needed to maintain pressure, and used the hydraulic pressure to restart when needed ,and was connected to the pump via an electric clutch.

When moving,the pump became a motor,when coasting it became a pump again,putting pressure back into the reservoir.

Seems like they tried a hydraulic motor at one or both of the rear wheels,but I am not sure about that.

The total weight was less than the standard vehicle,and got almost twice the urban stop-and-go mileage.

Highway mileage was about the same.

All parts were available off the shelf at the time.

Could hydraulics be a efficient method of storing energy today?

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#46
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Two Hybrid Flywheel-Electric Lemonade Versions

05/24/2020 11:08 PM

No. For one thing, "hydraulic" is a misnomer here. Instead, the energy is stored pneumatically in the form of compressed gas above the oil in the accumulator. The high pressure would require a heavy vessel, so your weight claim is questionable.

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#47
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Balloons and Light Bulbs

05/25/2020 12:51 AM

Balloons and Light Bulbs

Toy balloon cars are an example of pressure powered cars with a weight advantage due to the strategy. Tornado, "[t]he high pressure would require a heavy vessel..." is less the case if one uses a spherical pressure vessel as HTRN described. A more apt criticism is that a pressure vessel is a bomb or a rocket in an accident. An energy storage pressure vessel, if ruptured, is a very serious hazard since it can release all the stored energy very rapidly. Even traditional cylindrical pressure vessels such as scuba tanks are big hazards which are well known for becoming rockets capable of punching through masonry walls.

Amazingly, some counter-intuitive materials have stunning advantages as spherical pressure vessels. Consider, for example, the classical, approximately spherical, glass, incandescent light bulb envelope. Light bulbs are, true to their name, not just a source of light but are also very light weight for the atmospheric pressures they resist. They can be dropped from significant heights and, more frequently than not, merely bounce. Unfortunately, a tiny sharp point under small forces can rupture the envelope and result in catastrophic failure because the forces per unit area from a sharp, hard point are enormous. Car accidents, sadly, often result in hard, sharp, points penetrating areas which would, otherwise, remain undisturbed and the possible explosion of a large volume spherical pressure vessel(glass or otherwise) is not something a prudent designer can glibly ignore. This returns us to my earlier observation that carrying trip magnitude energy around in a car is a profound safety risk imprudent to ignore. The obvious solution is to slurp small gulps of energy from the roadway. Small pressure vessels could be employed for this transfer but are much harder to implement than electrical energy slurps largely because of the volumes involved with pressure vessels and because of logistics issues with accessing the stored pressures. Flywheels have higher energy density per volume than pressure vessels but direct contact electrical energy transfer into a permanently installed car-resident flywheel-motor-generator is still dramatically more convenient than frequent physical transfer of small flywheels from the roadway into the car.

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#48
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Balloons and Light Bulbs

05/25/2020 1:53 AM

That might have been interesting had you told me something I didn't already know.

Yes, a spherical pressure vessel can be ~ 1/2 the thickness of a cylindrical vessel of the same diameter, but it will still be quite heavy for the pressures involved here.

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#49
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Balloons and Light Bulbs

05/25/2020 7:12 AM

Fiberglass/carbon spheres are much lighter than steel,and are stronger.

Many scuba cylinders are carbon/fiberglass composite.

Cylinders may be more practical for vehicles due to the shape.

Tata makes compressed air powered vehicles,and perhaps air is the way to go instead of hydraulics.Less chance of pollution if it leaks.

Impact sensors could release the air in a controlled direction if involved in an accident;(I am thinking through a muffler to reduce noise.)

Every means of energy storage or generation has associated hazards;gasoline,batteries,flywheel,but we should focus on improving efficiency rather than potential hazards.

I do not mean ignore hazards,but address them is a creative way to minimize the hazard.

Sometimes the most ridiculous suggestions that emerge from a brain storming session lead to insights that are surprisingly beneficial.

Sometimes the answers are right before our eyes,but are too obvious for most to see.

Why does damp sand support weight,but dry sand will not?

Einstein found the simple answer:The surface tension between wet sand particles binds them together.

The answer had always been there,but it took a different perspective to see it.

At the present times many technologies are at the feeding trough, including chemical storage of hydrogen,instead of tanks,and only the strong(lucrative and efficient) will survive.

We may be surprised at the solution(s).

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#54
In reply to #49

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Balloons and Light Bulbs

05/26/2020 10:04 AM

If one can believe Elon Musk, his plan is to put these in the Roadster. Crazy man!

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#50
In reply to #48

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Balloons and Light Bulbs

05/25/2020 9:17 AM

Light Bulbs did not Illuminate, so Let's Try Soap Bubbles and Stanley Steamers

The more important point was not that a sphere beats a cylinder even though that is quite true. Your insistence that "...it will still be quite heavy..." demonstrates that the salient point was not digested. Since light bulbs did not work, let's try soap bubbles. For soap bubbles, the density of the entire assembly including the preponderance of material by volume(which is air) is nevertheless quite close to the density of the air alone. The weight of the structural material(the high density soap film) is therefore not dominating the aggregate density of the assembly. So, the conclusion I hope you can reach is that the structural material(the soap film) as a percentage of the assembly is not "quite heavy" as you seem adamant to assert. Now make no mistake. I am not asserting that soapy water is low density relative to air. I am simply noting that the envelope(the soap film) does not adversely impact the overall density of the whole bubble to the extent that the bubble promptly falls to the ground after being released into the air. The point here is that a pressure vessel can be a frugal structure in terms of total weight.

Just to head off another likely red herring, I am aware that molar weight of water being 18 is less than the molar weight of nitrogen 28. It is true that evaporating water in a soap bubble increases the volume of the bubble and lowers the overall density of the bubble assembly. It is still a frugal structure by mass even if released into a moisture saturated atmosphere.

I also am not discounting your "for the pressures involved.." clause. Tensile strength of materials can easily be quite high. In the case of soap bubbles, tensile strength of the surface tension of the envelope is quite small but still enough to provide amazing structural integrity to the bubble. For insight into the structural advantages of focusing on tension in structures see Buckminster Fuller's work on tensegrity.

I am not concerned with telling you things you do not know so much as encouraging you to fully assimilate the things you do know. Specifically, ignore your emotional first hand experiences with cast iron ship boiler behemoths or similar and reflect on natural phenomena with more elegant optimizations like the beautiful and density-frugal soap bubble. Both have their principals, but you can choose the focus and characteristics to attempt to optimize for any specific application. Another potentially informative example is the boiler the Stanley brothers optimized for their Stanley Steamer automobile. They used high tensile strength piano wire to produce a small scale boiler capable of resisting 600 lb./sq.in. which was still lightweight enough for a practical personal automobile popular until instant start ICE's and cheap gasoline displaced steam.

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#52
In reply to #47

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Balloons and Light Bulbs

05/26/2020 8:34 AM

maybe an answer to your large pressure or vacuum vessel could be to make many smaller vessels instead of one large. yes more weight, possibly more space, but overall safety could be increased due to the sharp edge puncture scenario.

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#53
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Two Hybrid Flywheel-Electric Lemonade Versions

05/26/2020 10:03 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krauss-Maffei_ML_4000

Europeans have been using this drive train for a while where electric wasn't feasible.

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#55
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Green MegaGauge Railroads

05/26/2020 11:36 AM

MegaGauge RailRoads for Robust Domestic Infrastructure

These diesel-hydraulics may be an example of pressure vessel energy storage since hydraulics often have accumulators. It is a maintenance nightmare to pipe high pressure hydraulics across a whole train but cross locomotive dynamic braking might be possible with hydraulic power transmission. Interesting but probably not viable.

This brings up a hot-button of mine. I think national huge gauge railroads could be a great asset because they could terrestrially transport large freight like windmill blades, large boats, prefab houses, tunnel segments, steel slabs, other megascale materials, and other stuff which today is forced to ships or to piecing and reassembly. The panama canal would have less of a monopoly and would not be as much of an Achilles' Heel for the US in times of global conflict. For example, China if driven to economic desperation might try buying or threatening Panama to cause us logistics issues. If we could divert a lot of traffic to a megagauge domestic railroad, then the threat is whimpified. The strategy is double purposed since a cheap large unit freight service could boost the economy better than merely handing money to consumers for post Covid recovery. The entire path of the megagauge RR would become an industrial development zone. Put it on the cheapest real estate east/west path across the central US servicing large items on the fly-over path between NY and CA. Chop a gentle grade requirement path through our mountain ranges. Reclaim some open pit mining damaged land in PA. Initially, jog southward through TX to include Houston ports on the path. Plan a pay as you go "diamond loop" northern path to tie the megaports of the whole country together. Make all tracks dedicated one way and provide at least one roadway in each direction over the whole loop. Scale up containerized cargo containers customized for the new megagauge RR.

The cost per ton-mile on railroads has always been very green. Scaling up the gauge will only improve that advantage especially for large volume items. We seem to be ignoring that elephant in the room ever since creating the Interstate Highway System. Sorry truckers, roads just cannot carry some freight and will never do it with a small carbon footprint as long as tires are rubber. I am tired of waiting to get to GoodWill because a windmill blade just cannot quite negotiate the gap under IH35 over TX183. Including wind lucrative sites on the loop route is very smart. Buffer the land adjacent to the megagauge RR loop with a wind power/industrial zone area which has its bands of housing for employees at the outer edges. Those who benefit live with the side effects of high industrialization and wind generation. Contest reward creative ideas for accommodation/protection for migrating birds. Put the highest, largest windmills in the country along the RR and suppress them elsewhere.

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#56
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Green MegaGauge Railroads

05/26/2020 12:20 PM

You and me both Otter. Yet another casualty of Oil companies. There are just a few countries that would really benefit from a robust national rail infrastructure. America is one. The idea for the interstate was sold as a defensive strategy a but who actually benefited from it? How many times have we been bombed? Did they attack the railroads? During WW1 railroads were federalized as their importance was unquestioned. Some how we managed to convince America that diesel powered trucks were more efficient than freight trains at getting goods across the nation. Then we were also sold the same BS on cars as well. Somehow a smelly, leaky, noisy, had to have your own garage and place to keep parts, fuel, and oils (no service stations) was more convenient than just plugging it in or taking it to the appliance repair store for service.

"A good salesman does not have to be an honest one."

my grandfather,

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#44
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Two Hybrid Flywheel-Electric Lemonade Versions

05/23/2020 7:56 PM
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#19
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion... Hybrid Flywheel-Electric Practical Version

05/20/2020 7:45 AM

I also proposed the idea of charging at intersections when stopped at lights.Cars and especially buses,could top off at every stop,as needed,albeit wirelessly.

I believe that Tesla was planning to use the ionosphere as a conductor to carry power around the world,and possibly use the ionosphere as a power source.

I also believe he was trying to use the Earth's magnetic field as a carrier.

We may never know his true intentions due to corporate greed and influence.

Atlanta,and many other cities were beginning to use electric street cars for public transportation,but the "powers that be" at the time saw that as a threat to the infant oil industry,in which they were heavily vested.

They were eventually removed in favor of petrol vehicles.

Imagine the progress if the electric transportation industry had been allowed to develop and advance over 100+ years instead of just relatively recently.

The lead/acid battery technology is over 100 years old,and is still being used all over the world.

The R+D on batteries and capacitors lay dormant for over a century.

The world is still living with the consequences.

To paraphrase Shakespeare:

"The evil that men do lives after them,but the good is oft interred with the bones.

So let it be with Tesla,Westinghouse,Edison, JP Morgan,and Vanderbilt", just to name a few.

There is much evil left in the world from contributors that have passed on,and much good as well.

History may not portray the villains as such,because the winners write the history.

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#15

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/20/2020 5:11 AM

Of course the vehicle could employ pantagraphs to connect to overhead wires to charge on the run. Safer than inductive coupling and could be available on the straight runs to recharge. I doubt it would be of any use in country areas but maybe urban.

In certain mining applications the diesel electric trucks drive from the face to the ramp and then connect to the overhead wires and drive up the ramp. The diesel electric gives them the flexibility to drive to the various faces for loading while the connection to overhead wires reduces the fuel requirements.

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#33
In reply to #15

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion. Underfoot Rails

05/20/2020 5:42 PM

Unsightly and Unnecessary Overhead Wires

Continuously powered overhead wires are from a time when we did not have good power switching technology. Early, continuously powered rails in the road were dangerous to pedestrians and car crash victims. Modern technology could power just a road rail segment that is currently beneath a car which has requested the energy transfer. At all other times the road rail segment could be inactive and grounded. I could ramble on about contactors(relays with electronic arc suppression, zero crossing capability, ...), IGBT switches, Solid State Switches, etc. but there are many new, powerful, and cheap alternatives to leaving miles of unsightly overhead wire continuously powered up to zap kite fliers and desecrate your view of the sky. The arguments being made for overhead wires mostly hold for intelligent, short, powered on demand, rail segments. Slurp negotiations could be automated and achieved wirelessly(via wifi or whatever) locally and just-in-time for a rail segment a car is approaching. Cars might both buy and sell slurps and some standards creation would be appropriate for the protocols and devilish details. Undercar pantographs might actually zoom backwards briefly during operation to reduce or eliminate sliding contact performance anomalies and wear. With maturity of such techniques, huge power handling ratings are possible during the short period that the car is above an individual rail segment.

It is important to realize that urban stoplight stationary slurps for cross-car dynamic braking is a cherry begging to be picked. We could implement that capability with batteries or the flywheel short period power storage to reap great benefit without huge commitment, installation investments, or development costs. Once that technology matures and becomes ubiquitous we could graduate to contact power transfer while moving using the switched rail segments and the backward zooming undercar pantographs discussed above. It's a pay-as-you go phased plan.

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#24

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/20/2020 9:56 AM

Good Morning HTRN,

You are on the right track. Don't let the oil addicted throw you off. Enter this string into Bing or Google and enjoy.

South korea Electric busses wireless charging

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#25

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/20/2020 10:10 AM

Now, the opinion piece. AS an owner of an electric car such topics are of interest to me. Until you own one you have no idea how different the experience is. Just this morning the wild rabbit in my yard didn't even flinch when the car rolled out of the garage less that two feet away, but hauled it big time when the wife and I opened the front door 10 feet away to go get in it. In Yellowstone we had Buffalo come over and sniff the car. Walked over to the car, approach slowly, sniffed the side mirror look in the window. Kimberly has a great picture of him and she was able to reach out the window and pet the big fellow. They were curious about it.

I put that anecdote in to illustrate how different it really is in unexpected ways and how thinking changes around them.

Anyway, What I am saying is you are on the right track. The idea of centralized power is not going to work because the cost of transmission and storage. Grids need to localize and we definitely need to stop wasting the energy we create just because we are not smart enough yet to capture and use it.

Opinion. Its not that Tesla's theory was wrong, one, he was too far ahead for the technology available. Two, he was going to give it away. We all know how that effected Edison and still effects the rich of today.

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#28
In reply to #25

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/20/2020 1:57 PM

So if i am interpreting this correctly, you are saying is that electric vehicles will cause wildlife carnage to the brink of extinction due to the loss of fear and subsequently life under the guise of "saving the enviroment".

i do have a question tho': won't there be an increase of CO2 due to the decomposition of the dead animals that will litter the roadways?

isn't there something similar that happens with those giant windmills?

go green!

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#29
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/20/2020 2:28 PM

ROFL, Good one.

Love that sense of humor.

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#38
In reply to #29

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/21/2020 8:01 AM

Thank you for having a sense of humor. Too many here do not get dry humor, by no means all, seems like those from the far west states, must be the lack of water on the brain. sitting below an Erie lake, we have so much of it, our heads swell.

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#39
In reply to #38

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/21/2020 11:23 AM

Staying Hydrated is good advice says a fellow Great Lakes Compact signatory.

When you have water on the brain you hear the sea all the time. Its quite calming.

I love these damn lakes!

I was going to bite the bullet this year and try to surf on Michigan but.... CoVid. Having lived in Florida I have never needed a dry suit to surf before so that would be weird, but I was looking forward to feeling a board underfoot again.

Stay Safe and stay humorous, it helps in times like these. I find myself wishing for George Carlin to rise from the grave.

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#31
In reply to #28

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/20/2020 4:22 PM

I can see road kill increasing dramatically because of the silence of the electric vehicles.

I will have to open another branch of the Road Kill Cafe.

I will have trouble finding another as good as Chef "Wheels Pier".

He is very creative with his menu:

Moose Mousse

A smear of deer

Gin and bear it

Slow cooked-slow road runner

Grilled cow birds,with grill marks

Possum pie

Shepard pie

Fice and rice

Fice Pilaf

Baked chicken..if the chicken didn't make it,we bake it.

Shitzu stew(very good if you suffer from interstate bowel compaction)

Poodles and noodles

Interstate pizza,scraped daily

(The pizza is best around the 4th of July when the crust is extra crispy)

OUR MOTTO:

"You know it's good..it's fresh from the hood."

Lighten up folks,were are all in this together.

Anyone care to contribute suggestions for more menu items?

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#30
In reply to #25

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/20/2020 3:57 PM

Just wait till Porky Pig finds out how easy it is to 'neak up on a wabbit with a ewectwik kar.

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#32
In reply to #30

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/20/2020 4:41 PM

I thought it was Elmer Fudd?

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#35
In reply to #32

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/20/2020 6:00 PM

You are wite..I get em mixed up sometimes.

Thanks for the cartoon.

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#34
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion. Locallized Power Transfers

05/20/2020 5:58 PM

Historical Localized Power Transfers

Cross car dynamic braking is a transfer dramatically localized in both geography and time. Its ancestry includes the main reason diesel electric locomotives displaced steam engines when I was very young. A long steam coal train passing over high mountains could sprinkle steam engines liberally between coal car segments to make it over a high peak but a diesel electric coal train could pass power from locomotives going downhill and using dynamic braking to the locomotives going uphill and use far less fuel to get over the mountain.

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#42

Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/22/2020 3:30 PM

Since electric cars have regenerative braking, you could have a service that would meet up with you on the highway and just pull you along for a fee while you charged your batteries regeneratively, without having to stop....a tow charger...Might need a special setting on the car to just apply a certain amount of drag...Let's try it...

..."the Model 3 recovered a little more than 1 kW after 1 km of towing."...

https://insideevs.com/news/382196/raptor-charge-model-3-towing/

...Of course to make this practical you would need a nuclear powered reactor in a big truck pulling several vehicles at a time, like a train....automatic hooking mechanism...charge by phone

OK maybe just a hydrogen powered fuel cell powered truck....

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#43
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Re: Charging at a Distance While in Motion

05/22/2020 5:42 PM

Slot car!

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