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The Buzzz...

11/10/2007 12:52 AM

I have noticed something when I plug in an appliance or stereo equipment that does not have a polarized power plug (one tine wider than the other). If I run the back of my hand against the chassis I can feel a sort of drag on my hand... It's sort of like the metal case is buzzing slightly. If I turn the power plug around, the drag or buzzing goes away.

So what causes this?

Is the case hot? If I put one hand one the case and grabbed a water pipe with the other, would I get the #*&% shocked out of me. Also, I have tried to show this to people, and some cannot feel anything.

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#1

Re: The Buzzz...

11/10/2007 3:02 AM

You are turning the AC waveform upside down .

Because you are spherical and fuzzy this causes forces trying to rotate you by 180 degrees causing drag on the fuzz (You have surely heard the expression 'pulled up by the fuzz')...

WTF are you doing messing about with this when you should be making a battery?

If you don't pull yourself together I'm going to tell your Mom.

Del

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: The Buzzz...

11/10/2007 3:54 AM

Careful with that kind of comment, maguiln may sniff you out and bite off your tail!!!

Battery building starts tomorrow!!!

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#3

Re: The Buzzz...

11/10/2007 12:08 PM

Hi vermin, it sounds like you have an un-earthed appliance. The neutral side of the power is probably close to (if not on) ground. The live side may have some leakage to the chassis, which can (capacitively) charge up to some AC voltage that you can feel. If all is normal, the leakage resistance should be some MΩ, so you probably won't get a nasty shock. I still prefer earthed-chassis appliances.

Jorrie

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#25
In reply to #3

Re: The Buzzz...

11/15/2007 2:07 AM

vermin could get a portable insulation tester. This can drop a couple of thousand volts over his stereo and check it's insulation. It's possible that he may have no stereo left afterwards, so be careful vermin. Don't hold the meter leads when you press 'test' or you may end up like my late lamented bathtub. How can you have a metal chassis with no earthing cable vermin ? Is it a plastic double-insulated case ? All in all, I think it would be safer just to enjoy the sensation that others can't detect. Just be glad of your sensitivity. Do you have especially sweaty palms, or wear lots of Nylon ?

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#4

Re: The Buzzz...

11/10/2007 11:48 PM

<Is the case hot? If I put one hand one the case and grabbed a water pipe with the other, would I get the #*&% shocked out of me.>

You said it all.

< have tried to show this to people, and some cannot feel anything.>

Poor duffers!

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: The Buzzz...

11/11/2007 12:42 AM

So is the case lit by all 110V AC or is it divided to, say, 50V AC?

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#26
In reply to #5

Re: The Buzzz...

11/22/2007 11:19 AM

This is just to add a little detail to what Jorrie wrote. It assumes your equipment is not in any way defective:

If you hang (so-called) double-insulated equipment in mid air, the outside of the case will be at some point intermediate between the live and neutral potentials - but not always in the middle. However, once you connect a partial conductor (yourself) to the case, the case voltage will be quite low - the internal resistance should be so high that you cannot pass more than a few tens of microamps. In answer to the 50V question. as you notice a difference when reversing the plug, it would seem that the case is not midway between the two supplies.

However, with regard to your stereo, I suspect that this has an external ground connection available. If so, it is designed to be used with other equipment, and it is expected that the grounds of these equipments will be interconnected (preferably not via the screen of signal wire, though this is not uncommon). To avoid problems with ground loops, it would be expected that exactly one of the equipments would be earthed to the general household earth.
Some of these equipments can have internal interference filters on the mains inputs; these will often have small capacitors between the inputs and ground. However, if these equipments are in proper working order, reversing the plug polarity should have no effect (at least as far as the current through the filter is concerned, as the filter should be symmetrical).

So why is the back of your hand especially sensitive to this - I've no idea, but I've noticed the same. Your tongue is even more sensitive, but I wouldn't recommend trying this out unless you know exactly what is happening inside the equipments.

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#27
In reply to #26

Re: The Buzzz...

11/22/2007 11:32 AM

So why is the back of your hand especially sensitive to this..

vermin have hairs on the back of their hands. Static etc ? Sweaty palms should produce some sort of enhanced effect, but probably not as much as a tongue.

'Supermarket trolley shock' is one that I've not felt for a while. I wonder if they have changed the wiring on cabinets, or wheels on trolley's. 'tis a mystery.

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: The Buzzz...

11/22/2007 12:03 PM

I speak from practical experience - my sweaty palms don't have the same ultimate sensitivity as the backs of my hands (even when those are dry); but the sensation in the palms soon overtakes that in the backs of the hands as the level increases. I suspect it is something to do with the lack of distracting information - you use the fronts of your hands so much that something is always going on there...

Also, I endorse vermin's comment that lower life forms (vermin and other so-called gurus) appear to be able to sense these electric currents at levels that are way below what higher creatures can. (We had some old "mineral-insulated" lampholders had leakage levels that I could feel, but the available current turned out to be orders of magnitude below the most stringent safety requirements).

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: The Buzzz...

11/22/2007 12:29 PM

"mineral-insulated"

Bakelite electrical fittings, RVI cable. Yes these horrors I have known.

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: The Buzzz...

11/22/2007 12:49 PM

Good stuff, Bakelite, albeit brittle. But the abbreviation RVI is new to me.

The problem with these lamps was that after somewhat over 60 years a small amount of moisture had penetrated the seals (which were probably not really designed for that sort of use) and MgO is hygroscopic. It was nowhere near enough to be dangerous, but enough to be felt. In the end I decided the seals were probably in the initial stages of failure. So I replaced the wiring with modern PVC (removing the insulation was fun, fun fun) and grounded the lamp. I doubt this will last anything like as long, but at least it's safe in the interim.

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: The Buzzz...

11/23/2007 3:19 AM

I may have the acronym wrong (?) - old style stuff insulated by stranded fabric and a rubber type compond. It goes horibly brittle with age. Often found behind equally old 5-amp round-pin socket outlets.

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: The Buzzz...

11/23/2007 4:18 AM

As soon as I knew to what** you were referring, I was able to look it up. VRI, or Vulcanised Rubber Insulated. Definitely of limited life. But not exactly mineral...

**Silted sin tax - speciously four pendants

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#33
In reply to #32

Re: The Buzzz...

11/23/2007 4:47 AM

My bad - Bad Acronym Display. 'The pedants are revolting' ! ( That one's quote abuse )

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#6

Re: The Buzzz...

11/11/2007 12:56 AM

If I put one hand one the case and grabbed a water pipe with the other, would I get the #*&% shocked out of me.

Could it be that some dyslectic part of you is getting things mixed up. Maybe it's the pipe that attracts the back of your hand and you are getting it all the other way around. (No, not like in batteries)

In case I got it all wrong I would suggest you see your local 'sparky' (Australian for electrician, I knew you knew that). See were this one ends up.

Its been fun again mate. Ky.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: The Buzzz...

11/11/2007 1:00 AM

It is definitely a possibility!!! From time-to-time I do hear something flowing through my water pipes... So what the heck can that be!!!

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: The Buzzz...

11/11/2007 2:23 AM

Keep the Batteries coming mate. Don't worry about things that could make us conspirators. Been to Law School? PMSL.

I will post this under "off topic" so that all will read it. I wonder what the stats are of someone not opening an "off topic". How boring. Ky.

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#15
In reply to #7

Re: The Buzzz...

11/12/2007 8:25 AM

water

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#16
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Re: The Buzzz...

11/12/2007 10:24 AM

Your dreams?

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#17
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Re: The Buzzz...

11/12/2007 11:17 AM

Wow... that's surreal...dreams... in pipes...oooh that's freaking me out man....

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#18
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Re: The Buzzz...

11/12/2007 12:06 PM

Could it be undulating alligators??

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#19
In reply to #17

Re: The Buzzz...

11/12/2007 2:38 PM

"Wow... that's surreal...dreams... in pipes...oooh that's freaking me out man...."

Why would that freak you out? I've, ummm . . . heard of lots of people getting dreams from pipes.

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#9

Re: The Buzzz...

11/11/2007 11:39 AM

It might be an interesting experiment to take a volt meter and measure the AC voltage between the case of your appliance and the ground pin of the outlet... in both plug orientations.

Bill

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: The Buzzz...

11/11/2007 12:06 PM

Or the case and your testicles?

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#12
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Re: The Buzzz...

11/12/2007 12:10 AM

With an imagination like that, you have a promising future as a civil servant in China!

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: The Buzzz...

11/11/2007 1:02 PM

I agree. This is the most practical way to determine the situation.


Also, does this occur with all outlets of this sort? If not, you may just want to test (inexpensive plug in unit) whether your socket is properly wired.

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#13

Re: The Buzzz...

11/12/2007 6:13 AM

An electric shock can cause most people to jump up and down, so has this already happened? The CR4 readership is poised upon the answer.....

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#20
In reply to #13

Re: The Buzzz...

11/13/2007 12:17 AM

No. I just have to go potty!!!

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#21
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Re: The Buzzz...

11/13/2007 2:49 AM

Some of us are potty already!

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#24
In reply to #20

Re: The Buzzz...

11/13/2007 12:12 PM

Hold it for the battery.

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#14

Re: The Buzzz...

11/12/2007 7:12 AM

hello...

I tink thats due to electrodinamic vibrations- it happens many times in power transformers , and in any electric device that use this type of equipement!

but in power transformers you realise it better!

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#22
In reply to #14

Re: The Buzzz...

11/13/2007 6:45 AM

well...

did you loose the manual one?

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#23
In reply to #14

Re: The Buzzz...

11/13/2007 8:52 AM

hooopppsss!

I´m sorry...!

English is a second language to me...

Did she lost the manual one?

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agua_doc (1); Anonymous Poster (2); electronick (1); Jaguar (2); Jorrie (1); Kris (5); ky (2); MUKULMAHANT (1); ozzb (1); Physicist? (4); PWSlack (1); Ron (1); Sciesis2 (2); user-deleted-1105 (4); vermin (5)

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