Are Railroads Next to go Battery Powered?

Maybe hybrid. You get added efficiency of constant RPM and also regenerative braking.

https://www.bnsf.com/news-media/railtalk/service/battery-electric-locomotive.html

I would like to see a microwave heated exchanger fluid in an organic Rankine cycle engine designed to propel a train with direct drive....Would the use of electricity be more efficient than an electric motor? What are your thoughts on this approach? The choice of expander fluid would be key, possibly a known refrigerant...

https://www.plantengineering.com/articles/organic-rankine-cycle/

I would say an electric motor would be much more efficient than an electrically driven heat engine that is limited to the Carnot efficiency.

"Fuel cell electric vehicles have the advantage over battery electric vehicles because they produce higher waste heat which can be used for heating purpose. When the fuel cell is activated, the generated waste heat is around 40 % of the consumed fuel power and can be used for the cabin and battery heating."

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/77228792.pdf

It makes the most sense to have battery electric locomotives where the diesel exhaust is a problem like in cities, tunnels, or other high density locations, such as ports, rail yards and so on. Weight may not be as much of a significant factor but the energy per unit volume of diesel is an order of magnitude greater than Li-ion cells.

A typical Li-ion cell has an energy density of about 500 W-h/liter.

Diesel has an energy density of 10,700 W-h/liter and even at 30% efficiency, that corresponds to 3,200 W-h/liter.

It is also much faster to charge the fuel tank of a locomotive than it would be to charge a monster battery.

Automated battery swapping could handle that problem.

Exchange the battery with a fully charged one and charge the old one outside of the train.

Same would apply with cars.

They have been battery swapping every shift in industry for a long time.

The fork lifts and powered jacks are designed for easy battery swap.The battery is on rollers.Simply roll the old one out to one side,roll the new one in from the other.Even manually,it only takes a couple of minutes.

This reduces down time and extends battery life by not allowing too deep of a discharge.

Automation of this process would make it even quicker.

Subway trains could swap batteries while unloading/loading seamlessly.

<...Subway trains...> are invariably electrically-powered already and there is no need to use batteries.

Although battery locomotives exist, their length precludes their use on this type of train, as they reduce carrying capacity per unit train length compared to one where all the traction equipment is distributed under the floor and fed from externally-generated power.

Complexity costs.

It's already being done in the more advanced countries.

Like the distance from New York to San Francisco?

Quebec to Vancouver?

That is a long distance, but is it electrified?

No. The longest "Route" I can find is Jaipur to Kolkata

Delhi to Kolkata via Patna has been open a long time. They were supposed to get as far as Ajmer this October but Covid got in the way.

The two I am most familiar with are the Trans Australian and the Trans Siberian. Although understand China's Highspeed rail project is moving along very fast and its fully electric as most high speed rail is and then there is the plan for the trans asia line across the entire Eurasian continent. I remember when America was that ambitious.

The trans Australian has the longest stretch of flat straight rail in the world if I remember right.

Ambition should be coupled with a reason.

And wouldn't you know, my Forbes quote of the day...

a favorite of mine,

A man’s reach should exceed his grasp... Robert Browning - Forbes Quotes

But his reach shouldn't exceed his checkbook . . .

"As of 2012, electrified tracks account for nearly one third of total tracks globally.^[8]

The Swiss rail network is the largest fully electrified network in the world & one of only two to achieve this, the other being Armenia. China has the largest electrified railway length with over 100,000 km (62,000 mi) electrified railway in 2020 or just over 70% of the network.^[36] A number of countries have zero electrification length.

Several countries have announced plans to electrify all or most of their railway network such as Indian Railways, Israel railways and Nederlandse Spoorwegen."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_electrification_system

"Experiments with accumulator railcars, as they were originally called, were conducted from around 1890 in Belgium, France, Germany and Italy. Full implementation of battery trains were undertaken with various degrees of success. In the U.S., railcars of the Edison-Beach type, with nickel-iron batteries were used from 1911. In New Zealand, a battery-electric Edison railcar with a range of 160 km operated from 1926 to 1934 on the 34 km long Little River Branch line. The Drumm nickel-zinc battery was used on four 2-car sets between 1932 and 1946 on the Harcourt Street Line in Ireland. British Railways used lead-acid batteries in a British Rail BEMU from 1958 to 1966 on the 38 mile long Aberdeen to Ballater line in Scotland. The BEMU was a success however was decommissioned as the line was closed. A BEMU has been restored operating as a shunting train until proper battery charging facilities are built.^[4] In Germany between 1955 and 1995 Deutsche Bahn railways successfully operated 232 DB Class ETA 150 railcars utilising lead-acid batteries."

"A number of tramway manufacturers are offering battery tramcars that combine the traction battery with a supercapacitor that will be charged at each stop. The main motivation for the usage of battery-powered tramways is to avoid overhead wires across a city. Using boost charging at each stop allows to lower the size of the required traction battery. This technology is hoped to be transferred to full trains.

The CAF Urbos 3 tramways was ordered for the Seville MetroCentro with the Acumulador de Carga Rápida system which uses short overhead wires at each stop for charging. The Seville trams have been operating since Easter 2011.^[5]

Siemens three car trams are to be used for Education City in Doha, the capital of Qatar.^[6][7] The network opened in 2010.^[8] No overhead wires were installed, as the 10 Avenio trams will be powered by the Siemens Sitras HES system (Hybrid Energy Storage), a combination of a supercapacitor and a traction battery that are charged at each stop through an overhead conductor rail.^[7][9][10]

A Combino tramway using four car tramsets equipped with the Sitras HES system has been in regular service from Almada to Seixal, Portugal, since November 2008. It is capable of running up to distances of 2,500 metres without overhead wires.^[11][12]

A number of catenary-free tramways have opened in China that recharge at tram stops and terminals. The 20.3km Huai'an tram line in China, opened in February 2016. The line is entirely catenary-free utilising battery-powered trams supplied by CRRC Zhuzhou which recharge at tram stops.^[13]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_multiple_unit

Is COVID19 the Beginning of the End of SuperSpreader Sardine Mass Transit ?

With COVID 19 we should have learned that sardine mass transit is dangerous, unsustainable technology in an ever more infectious population. Slurper transportation can, however, make urban commuting in personal vehicles automatic(cobot autonomous technology), energy efficient, and epidemic safe(commuter personal distancing.) Win, win, win.

Per post #6 one can get electric trolley operation without unsightly/dangerous overhead wires:

"A number of tramway manufacturers are offering battery tramcars that combine the traction battery with a supercapacitor that will be charged at each stop. The main motivation for the usage of battery-powered tramways is to avoid overhead wires across a city. Using boost charging at each stop allows to lower the size of the required traction battery. This technology is hoped to be transferred to full trains." [or not]

Short hop "tramcars" can use supercapacitors or flywheels to quickly store perishable, hi-power energy slurps in lighter, short-shelf-life energy storage mechanisms to avoid overhead wires in urban environments. Long-haul railroads are a much less interesting application than commuter vehicles in high density, short-hall applications such as urban commuting. Lugging a large battery around is foolish(unnecessary weight) on rubber tires as hybrids and all-electric vehicles do now. There is an up-front infrastructure cost delaying this conversion now. However, these personal slurper cars are not incompatible with current roadways, they just get a progressive advantage as urban roadways gradually build-out slurper infrastructure. It is a fast payback, pay-as-you-go transition much like the wired to cellphone transition. It will rapidly dominate once it gets started. The energy savings in cross-vehicle dynamic braking at traffic signal intersections is enormous since the kinetic energy of stopping vehicles can locally, quickly, and efficiently get transferred into nearby accelerating vehicles rather than just tossed as waste heat in brakes block after block. One can get an approximate estimate of this advantage by observing the automobile EPA sheet for city vs highway driving mileage numbers.

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thewildotter

Masks, far UVC lights, hydrogen peroxide misting, air ventilation strategy, and other new technologies will enable mass transit to continue...It'll just get cleaner, a standard that should have been in place to begin with...

https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/coronavirus-covid-19-and-medical-devices/uv-lights-and-lamps-ultraviolet-c-radiation-disinfection-and-coronavirus

https://www.cleanroomcleaning.com/hydrogen-peroxide-fogging/

Social Distancing REQUIRES Personal Commuter Vehicles

"Masks, far UVC lights, hydrogen peroxide misting, air ventilation strategy, and other new technologies will enable mass transit to continue...It'll just get cleaner, a standard that should have been in place to begin with..."

I like your 222 UVC for surfaces and recirculated air if they can ever produce it economically. I think H₂O₂ misting is, itself, a bleaching, corrosion, and health hazard. Good air ventilation is always nice. But when people have their faces inches from strangers all of that becomes futile. The classical (comical) commuter train can easily become cleaner but it will always be a superspreader with sub-meter social distancing. People also prefer owning their own personal vehicles so they can have emergency supplies, tools, and food from home stashed inside and transportable sanctuary from the target location itself. If you argue that these are not necessary then I contend that, for those individuals, the commuting itself is probably not necessary either.

I also am a strong proponent of work-from-home whenever that can be made to work, fewer business trips, and recordable zoom(or whatever) meetings whenever possible. Even with all those, there will be certain occupations which require physical presence. For those I would like safe personal transportation in private vehicles since those very occupations usually distribute their staff in non-concentrated target locations which make all lemming(sardine) transportation modes absurdly... awkward to schedule, slow, inconvenient, and hazardous.

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thewildotter

" I think H₂O₂ misting is, itself, a bleaching, corrosion, and health hazard."

"Controlled Contamination Services (CCS) uses Ionized Hydrogen Peroxide / iHP™, an innovative technology that provides residue free decontamination and 6-log bio-burden reduction by delivering an activated hydrogen peroxide solution for effective bio-decontamination where reduction of biological load is critical. iHP™ produces a reactive oxygen species to kill bacteria, mold, spores and viruses on all indoor and outdoor spaces. Traditional fogging methods use carcinogens that can leave corrosive residue or a vaporized hydrogen peroxide that depends on an H₂O₂ vapor for decontamination.

This technology consists of 7.8% hydrogen peroxide. The reactive oxygen species (ROS), hydroxyls and free radicals used in the iHP™ method react with the double bonds, proteins and lipids in microorganisms on contact; stripping them away and lysing the cells.

This effectively destroys the organisms on a physical level, not just a biological level, leaving no chance for future strains to develop immunity to the decontamination process. Once the decontamination process is complete, the hydrogen peroxide denatures and disseminates into oxygen and water within minutes, leaving no residue or by-products.

iHP™ provides an effective means of decontamination, disinfection and infection control of all surfaces within a controlled environment."

Yeah. Marketing hype. There is no such thing as "leaving no residue" especially since they just admitted to oxidizing proteins and lipids in biologicals. Clearly that stuff is not converted completely to water and oxygen. It may be less dangerous than the original pathogen but it is clearly not zero residue. Also, surfaces will be oxidized and the compounds produced may not be less hazardous than the original material. This surface oxidation is likely a degrading factor for all of the materials contacted. Any stray spray will do to your lungs exactly what they describe as the effects on these microorganisms. I like your far UVC better even though some of my objections to peroxide could also be applied with respect to UVC. At least the UVC itself is certainly not illuminating your lungs and is gone once you turn the light off rather than waiting for a spontaneous chemical denaturing and dissemination. Just leaving surfaces wet is not optimal in my estimation. These assertions remind me of the people who drink sewage after adding miracle drops to purify the water. That they are foolish does not, in the least, encourage me to follow their lead.

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thewildotter

"There are many commercial systems that use hydrogen peroxide as a fog or gas that differ in terms of antimicrobial efficacy, compatibility and safety. Simple hydrogen peroxide fogging systems can be used but these are liquid based and require clean-up following application. Two hydrogen peroxide gas systems are also available; these are similar but distinct. They both control the whole fumigation process (including aeration), but are often differentiated as being ‘wet’ and ‘dry’ processes based on a knowledge of the physical chemistry of hydrogen peroxide. The wet process produces a gas which is subsequently condensed (‘microcondensation’) on to a surface to give a high concentration (∼70%) of hydrogen peroxide liquid. The dry process ensures that the hydrogen peroxide is maintained in its gaseous phase and does not condense. As these systems offer different processes, they also vary in antimicrobial activity, compatibility with surfaces and safety."

I don't think you are supposed to breath the fog in...but you allow it to dissipate...anyway it can be used in some circumstances when the place is empty for a time...any effort to clean any public place is welcomed in my book....Like a mask it places a barrier to cross-contamination...

https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/S0195-6701(05)00382-8/fulltext

I heard an interesting talk with the mayor of the mid-sized southern city close to where I live. She said "we are a built city". Her point is that there is no way to provide for the mobility of the increasing population by putting more small private vehicles on the roads within the city and close in suburbs. The road capacity has peaked or will soon. The only way to move more people in that geographic area is more mass transit options.

Your points regarding distancing and cleanliness and work from home are all valid, but the long term solution personal mobility is not going to be more personal transportation appliances on the roads.

That's what we call negative feedback for the population control loop. It's pretty effective.

It keeps me out of the cities.

Years ago I proposed charging wirelessly at stop lights,intersections,and periodically on the interstates,but the idea was discounted as being inefficient and costly.Technology has finally caught up,and wireless charging by resonant transformers is now possible.I imagined a series of embedded transformer primaries in the interstates that would charge a vehicle on demand from the vehicle,which would ask for a charge when needed.This charging would be done on the fly,and if necessary,with a flying head transformer to sync transformer to vehicle speed as the vehicle passed from one coil to another.The amount of energy would be automatically billed to, or deducted from,your account via satellite or POI.

A computer would keep the load balanced among all of the transformers to reduce demand factor at any given place and time.

There would always be enough energy left to make it to the next point if that particular point was maxed put when you passed over,or parked over it at an intersection.

Solar cells will be in the medians,contributing to the power needs,and maybe even small windmills harvesting the constant winds on the interstate.

This infrastructure will take time,but so did the transition to motorized vehicles.

The Delay Devil is in the Initial Details

Pantographs with wired connections have been workable for over a hundred years. I would not make moving to slurping dependent on wireless. If you make it work efficiently and safely then fine but do not exclude the possibility of direct connection since that is known to work since the time of trolleys. I would negotiate the sale of a slurp with wifi(or similar) so that power would not remain on without a pantograph equipped car above the connector. OTS IGBTs and contactors can switch the power required.

Again, I am not against wireless, I just see lots of development to make it work efficiently and safely at these powers and spacings. For example, consider what frequency and spacings you intend to use between coils in the road and coils in the car and what powers you can SAFELY allow so close to your passengers. Do not forget that existing roads tolerate fairly large gravel and do not require it to be cleaned away for cars to operate. Will you use magnetic cores to confine your fields and have you calculated the weight of the transformer windings, core, and shielding.

It is plausible to me that someone could make all this wireless tech viable but I would not want to wait for that to happen since contact transfer is known viable. I am happy that you also see the value of not lugging around stored energy either in a gas tank or a battery. Also, in urban settings with periodic traffic lights, on-the-fly energy transfers are not essential to deriving your energy requirements from the roadway. On-the-fly makes infrastructure retrofit disruptions and costs far higher. Just heavy traffic urban traffic light locations would demonstrate to all those loving jack rabbit starts how valuable roadway energy sources are to their exhilaration using electric motor low end torque advantages.

Interstate medians are prime real estate for wind and solar farms and powering vehicles locally greatly reduces inefficiencies related to transferring that energy somewhere else. Grid interconnection could supplement when there is no wind or sun and absorb any excesses if there is less vehicle traffic demand than power generated. As others have noted for decades, using the grid as a buffer allows power plants to leave fuels in reserve for times of greater demand.

Infrastructure buildout will have positive feedback. The more you get, the faster you will recoup costs and increase demand. Getting started is the biggest hurdle.

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thewildotter

Powered On-Demand Only

Right ! Leaving roadway power on when a car is not above actively slurping is unacceptable whether the power is accessed wirelessly or with contacts. This should be integrated with payment negotiation and some sensing of the car in a pedestrian blocking position. It also complicates on-the-fly logistics. I believe that wifi and other modern payment tech can cover this but it does need development and debug specific to this new application. These electrical safety issues are why trolleys used overhead rather than third rail. There were still deaths due to always-on even though the wires were way up high.

GA to PWSlack

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thewildotter

What I imagined was "Sipping" rather than "Slurping",by topping off the charge at a certain battery level.

This would reduce the instantaneous demand and allow for smaller transformers.Only minimum power is needed for sensors to determine presence of a vehicle.

The safety aspects will be worked out.Not many pedestrians on the interstates.

These changes would not occur overnight,and would take a long time,just like the Interstate system itself.

Unforseen problems cropped up,but they were solved and they progressed,improvements in material,machinery and methods were made as time went on.

They did not stop because of a few glitches.

It took years to complete,but it was worth it.

Eisenhower took the long view,not the myopic one.

If you have to eat an elephant,you do it one bite at the time.

Why battery as opposed to electric?

Share of the rail network which was electrified in Europe by 2018

I see that we (the UK) are much lower than I thought, but, I hadn't realised how far behind the US was.

Consider the distances we're talking about in the United States and the cost to run electric facilities across the plains.

And how big a battery would you require for those sorts of distances?

I was in Amarillo, Texas... and from a distance, those rails are mirror polished from the traffic.then again, that’s a hub for out going beef.

The problem... people would use Germany or Japan with the success of their high speed rails are,... but they do not realize that these country’s are the size of one of our smaller states... take the open west for instance, there’s a lot of nothing in between stops. And then have electric, like you stated... to build the infrastructure for this, is not sustainable.

It might be easier to use a stationary battery and solar harvesting from the plains to it, feeding overhead cables instead.

Tornado power harvesting needs to be looked at too.

Solar panels are not very durable in Tornado Alley.

Modern US rail already runs on electricity either by diesel over DC generators or direct power by 3rd rail or overhead. Direct power works great for urban and passenger carriage and diesel-DCgen is the most optimal for the long distance that multimode (container) or unitized (every car same as the next all going to the same terminal(s)) freight that predominates US rail transport. As others have posted the distances between the primary ports of entry on the West, East and Gulf Coasts to the Nationwide distribution terminals are vast. Battery power just can't match direct power for efficiency and delivered energy or diesel-DCgen for endurance/range.

Not only the huge carrying capacity of railways, but the low rolling resistance. If a VW ID6 can do 280 miles on a battery, a train can go faster or further. Perhaps much faster and much further, as it can use supercapacitors to accelerate off from each station after a recharge via overhead wires at each stop. Sections of overhead wires could even be added at inclines to increase speed or range. I have been on an electric train at 200 Km/hr, and that was a local from an airport. Nice to be able to walk to get a coffee and look at the view on longer trips. Image: wikipedia

Short distance passenger rail, yes.

Freight? No.

I wonder if anyone has looked in to a hybrid diesel-electric locomotive that could pick up power from a 3rd rail or overhead when close enough to urban/suburban areas and run on diesel for the long stretches of the continental US in between?

I believe the answer is yes. I recall seeing diesel-electric passenger locomotives on the Northeast Corridor where they can raise or lower the pantographs depending on where they are running the train. I have not seen that capability on any freight trains.

Yes, Stadler makes them in Europe (the Eurodual), and in South Arica there is the Class 38 locomotives. There probably are others too.

Hey Ron, as you might already know electrification of railroads is the most efficient form. Whether catenary or rail fed. Battery power is already being used by several railroads in congested areas where pollution is a problem and electrification is not possible.

So other than specific challenges, railroads would still be better served by centralized electrification than battery power.

Of course there is always this..

https://youtu.be/11wbbKStXyY

https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/cp-announces-hydrogen-powered-locomotive-pilot-project/