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From the Toilet to the Tap

10/21/2021 8:16 AM

With modern treatment technology waste water can be recycled as potable water.

Some places are already adding recycled water to their potable water.

Eventually it will not be an option.

Fresh water is being used up faster than it can be replaced.

Aquifers are being drained,some rivers no longer reach the ocean.

The Water Wars are ahead,and Russia has a very good poker hand given to her by mother nature.

Lake Baikal in Siberia has more fresh water than all of the Great Lakes combined.It is over a mile deep,and even has a species of seals in it.

It has over 5600 cubic miles of water.

These conflicts will encourage more effective recycling,hydroponic greenhouses,and the use of solar energy and light guides for lighting these facilities.

Possibly harvesting icebergs?

Maybe even a tunnel(s) from the Great Lakes to the West?

Desperate times will require desperate measures.

All constructive comments are always welcome.

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#1

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/21/2021 9:17 AM
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#4
In reply to #1

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/21/2021 9:42 AM

Of course it is,that is common knowledge, or at least I thought it was.

I just did not want to overstate the obvious.

Some of same water that the dinosaurs drank is still being recycled,as well as the air that we breathe.

Nature does an excellent job of recycling,creating a closed loop system,which man is violating,and if not remedied,man will self destruct.

Goldfish size is controlled by the size of the container they are in,due to bio feedback from their waste products.Nature will do the same to humans with viruses,plagues,storms,pollinator species dying off,etc.

Severe storms will increase as the extra heat from the equator moves towards the poles,pesticides are destroying bees and other beneficial insects,antibiotics are destroying the beneficial bacteria in the soil and in our bodies.

Nature will prevail,as always.

The Earth does not need us,we need the Earth,our only home.

The Earth will keep on keeping on,as it has for billions of years,until our sun evolves into a red giant,then it will become part of the atmosphere of the sun,or a burned out cinder if not blasted away into interstellar space by the solar explosion.

Only 1% of the species currently exist that have been on the Earth since life began.We are in that 1%.

The human species will disappear,the landfills will be subducted under the oceans,mountains will rise from the seabed,all signs of humans will disappear,except for perhaps a layer to puzzle some future archaeologist.

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#7
In reply to #4

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/21/2021 10:31 AM

Ah. So this is really about the limits to growth. Mankind really should not extrapolate ad infinitum, then; how arrogant to do so.

It seems outrageous that homo sapiens can blindly assume that it is at the end of evolution, for there remains a couple of billion years for things to go further, such period being a heavy multiple of its development so far. Assuming things won't change for a couple of billion years is absolute nonsense. By that time it won't be <...our sun...> though, really, applying the definitions incompletely described in an earlier philosophical post; it will be some other species'.

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#12
In reply to #7

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/21/2021 12:09 PM

There has been plenty of time in the billions of years before homo sapiens evolved for other intelligent, sentient,and possibly more advanced civilizations to have evolved and left the planet,or gone extinct.

Glaciers scrape the surface clean,and plate tectonics knead the surface like dough,all traces gone.

We are not at the end of our reign at the top of the heap,but the base is crumbling.

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#10
In reply to #1

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/21/2021 11:41 AM

All water is recycled.

True. Still, I would like to have as much nature as possible between the Pee and the Pint. It's probably the single most drawback to the career of Astronaut, IMHO.

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#13
In reply to #10

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/21/2021 12:10 PM

Yeah!That's why I am not an astronaut()

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#17
In reply to #10

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/21/2021 5:32 PM

Government: “You’ll drink what we give you and that’s final.”, “oh, and by the way, that’s rain.”

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/21/2021 9:34 PM

Wanting clean water to drink is a high class problem. We just need to lower our expectations.

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#23
In reply to #18

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/22/2021 11:35 AM

Problem solved… lol…

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#24
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/22/2021 6:02 PM

That's how all our country's problems are solved these days.

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/22/2021 6:45 PM

Yes,… same as ‘someone should do something about that’.

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#56
In reply to #25

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/27/2021 7:30 PM

I hope the voters will do something about that.

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#57
In reply to #56

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/27/2021 7:50 PM

The warm blooded ones will… unfortunately the day walkers out number us….

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#58
In reply to #57

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/27/2021 7:58 PM

Maybe a good statement would be "STATEMENT".

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#60
In reply to #56

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/28/2021 6:36 AM

"Fear the Walking Dead--- Voter.!"

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#71
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

11/08/2021 2:53 PM

A few years ago, the county (maybe it was the entire state) wanted to tax properties based on pollution from the runoff of rain water. Yes, this is true (scary, but true). "They" wanted to add an acre (or percentage of ) tax to our property tax. Since rainwater that runs off a property is contaminated, it goes down the sewer system to the local river, which then flows to the ocean. On the way, farmers use the water for their crops and they have complained that the water is destroying their crops, so we need to "process" the water, before it gets to them.

I almost bought a large piece of land, but when I heard of this crazy idea, I backed off. And of course, the tax was never added, so in hindsight, it would've been a good property to buy. However, here in LA County, you never know what new tax is lurking around the corner!

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#79
In reply to #71

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

11/08/2021 4:10 PM

I spoke too soon. I thought this was dead. It failed, I'm sure. Well, someone brought it back - yes, we property owners in LA County pay a tax on rainwater that lands on our property!

What's next?

https://archive.estuarynews.org/estuary-news-pearls-la-stormwater-tax/

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#80
In reply to #79

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

11/08/2021 4:25 PM

2013 - that was the year it was first attempted and failed. So, they changed the wording and got people to vote for it! Amazing!

Here in CA, we tax the property owners, because if they don't pay, the state has a tax lien sale and the property owner loses his property. Many years ago, we passed Prop 13 - the maximum property tax was set at 1% of the assessed value. It also limits the annual property tax increase to 2% per year. So, how do "they" get around this? Look at this example - it's from my 2021 property tax bill.

1% tax = $535.26

Other = $1,019.21 - includes $74.42 for Drainage Assessment! Not sure how "they" calculated that I have 2,976.8 sq feet of impermeable surface.

Total = $1,554.47

I'm lucky, because I get to break it up into two payments $777.24 and $777.23 and they don't even charge me interest!

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#81
In reply to #80

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

11/08/2021 4:27 PM

Well, what do you know? I just checked another property (twin to the one I used as an example) and it has the same tax. The driveway is completely different and has a much smaller yard, both front and back.

And another property has $0 for that tax. I'm going to be quiet now.

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#69
In reply to #10

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/29/2021 12:39 PM

<...as much nature as possible between the Pee and the Pint...>

It's just that <...nature...> can't do it fast enough; mankind's ingenuity is there to speed things up.

The River Lee, which flows through East London, is fully consumed six times between source and sea. The River Thames is not far behind it.

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#2

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/21/2021 9:29 AM

"With modern treatment technology waste water can be recycled as potable water."

No, it can't be done safely....You have drugs, chemicals and persistent human waste products that can't be effectively removed at the scale and efficiency necessary to make this a viable option....Not only is Lake Baikal in Siberia, (ie: the middle of nowhere) it is far from the pristine source of pure water that you make it out to be....

..."Environmentalists have previously acknowledged pollution at Lake Baikal. It faces a series of detrimental phenomena including the disappearance of the omul fish, the rapid growth of putrid algae and the death of endemic species of sponges across its area. Environmental advocacy for the lake began in the late 1950s. Since 2010, more than 15,000 metric tons of toxic waste have flowed into the lake."....

..."In 2006, the Russian government announced plans to build the world's first international uranium enrichment center at an existing nuclear facility in Angarsk, a city on the river Angara some 95 km (59 mi) downstream from the lake's shores. Critics and environmentalists argued it would be a disaster for the region and are urging the government to reconsider.

After enrichment, only 10% of the uranium-derived radioactive material would be exported to international customers, leaving 90% near the Lake Baikal region for storage. Uranium tailings contain radioactive and toxic materials, which if improperly stored, are potentially dangerous to humans and can contaminate rivers and lakes.

An enrichment center was constructed in the 2010s."...

..."According to The Moscow Times and Vice, an increasing number of an invasive species of algae thrives in the lake from hundreds of tons of liquid waste, including fuel and excrement, regularly disposed into the lake by tourist sites, and up to 25,000 tons of liquid waste are disposed of every year by local ships. "....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Baikal#Environmental_concerns

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#5
In reply to #2

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/21/2021 9:45 AM
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#6
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/21/2021 10:20 AM

Then why is it only done in this small South African town? ...and can you quantify safely? ....this recycled waste water is blended into water from fresh sources at what percentage and cost? "The current life expectancy for Namibia in 2021 is 64.12 years"

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228674320_Treatment_of_Wastewater_for_re-use_in_the_Drinking_water_system_of_Windhoek

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#8
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/21/2021 10:48 AM
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#9
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/21/2021 11:15 AM

<...why is it only done in this small South African town?...>

That's not the case, though.

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#15
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/21/2021 1:18 PM
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#70
In reply to #15

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/29/2021 12:40 PM

Some fond memories of that one remain.

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#11
In reply to #6

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/21/2021 12:00 PM

What is their life expectancy with no water?

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#22
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/22/2021 7:27 AM

It's hardly a case of sink or swim....

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#72
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

11/08/2021 2:55 PM

I don't know where you get these from, but good one!

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#28
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/23/2021 6:56 AM

Much of Namibia's water is from the orange river and most of the water is consumed by the diamond mines in the region. The coast line is owned by diamond mines so there is not much chance of building a desalination plant along much of the coast. (Diamonds are plentiful along the beeches). There are very few people living far beyond the Namibian coast line. There is nothing inland of the coast to live there for.

The UAE has plenty water from ground water and desalination plants, along with Dubai and Kuwait who also have sufficient water supply for people. Even the Sahara has a huge aquifer that is used by four countries for fresh water.

Fresh water is not in short supply as one may think or being led to believe. I agree in some areas, there may be shortages of water for people in the world, and this seems to be mostly in the USA in select areas. There are many states who have too much water.

I have experienced droughts in Africa, but industry had water. I have seen dams bone dry and a year later overflowing with too much water. The world has a cycle and we are soon heading into the wet cycle as more countries are getting wetter. It seems you just need to wait your turn for the wetter era to arrive. Start building better catchment areas to let aquifers fill up and maybe a lot less fracking taking place using your water resource.

There will always be enough water to make beer and sodas, industry will never go dry.

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#59
In reply to #6

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/28/2021 1:34 AM

Correction - Windhoek is not in South Africa - close but no cigar.

I do remember the mayor of Port Elizabeth (which is in South Africa) gagging on a glass of water at the opening of a potable waste water treatment plant - somewhere back in the late 1960's. It certainly can be done - will the public accept it is another discussion.

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#3

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/21/2021 9:34 AM

The future is now.

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#14

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/21/2021 12:25 PM

In college there was a sign in the dorm restroom saying "Flush twice, it is a long way to the cafeteria". The food was very bad and sometimes made you sick but the directive probably was fictitious.

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#26
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/22/2021 11:16 PM

You clearly didn't go to my college (Cal Poly SLO), at least not in the early '60s. Our cafeteria food was so good and plentiful that I had to start skipping lunch to avoid getting rolly-polly.

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#16

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/21/2021 5:31 PM

For those near a coast, de-desalinization might be a more cost effective source of water than filtered pee. And a high percentage of people live near a coast or large body of water.

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#19
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/21/2021 10:04 PM
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#20

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/22/2021 1:33 AM

If you are downstream from any other town, you are already dealing with recycled sewage. You can hope that the upstream treatment is working properly, and that your incoming treatment is also working properly.

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#21
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/22/2021 7:17 AM

Indeed. The river Lea in east London, for example, is fully consumed six times 'twixt source and sea.

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#27

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/23/2021 5:56 AM

Water, water, every where, And all the boards did shrink; Water, water, every where, Nor any drop to drink.

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#29

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/23/2021 9:27 AM

I think we have misplaced allegiances---

  • we place far too much trust in the ability of our own creations/technology to solve problems before us.
  • We use a very short observation of events and do not see beyond our own short life-spans.
  • We measure benefits/costs in terms of money, convenience, personal worth, power, etc.--and do not see or ignore "side effects" or unintended consequences.

The realignment of river flows and lake contents with canals, tunnels, and so on has allowed building up large cities in places not well suited for them (long-term).

Because of climate changes, mountain snow-packs melt earlier in the year so river flows are seasonal. This leads to more flooding, more water shortages, more dams.

We can take steps to counter short-term shortages of water with dams, pumping ground water, rationing, and more. But these all feed our delusion that we can solve all problems we have created---without looking at "downstream" consequences.

True--our rivers, lakes, and even the ocean all contain small/trace amounts of pesticides, medications, and other chemicals. We have little understanding of how these affect us, affect other plants and creatures. These effects can be hard to see, but their long-term cumulation is not known. Effects can include sex-selection during reproduction, sex-expression in adulthood, immunity-or the lack thereof, birth rates and lifespans, and more.

Pumping ground water and oil causes ground subsidence, with resulting costs to replace non-functional drainage systems and sewers, intrusion of sea water (by many miles), drying of springs, and coastal cities that include large areas now below sea level.

As long as we foolishly spend a vast majority of our assets and resources on wars and military hardware, we will be blind to what we should be doing--again a worship of a false god.

--JMM

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#30

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/23/2021 1:46 PM

A very affluent and largely populated county is doing just that. Who is it?

Orange County in Southern California. https://www.ocwd.com/media/6615/gwrs-tech-brochure-may-2018.pdf

It's an indirect system, but it is a toilet to tap. It's been around for many years and although the water is mixed with water from other sources, it's still recycled water.

At first, residents were skeptical - using the name "toilet to tap" didn't help. It's been over a decade and people are using the recycled water with no complaints. Though most in OC don't drink tap water ... in fact, most in CA don't drink tap water, unless it's filtered.

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#31

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/23/2021 2:05 PM

For an interesting take on the coming water wars, read "The Water Knife"

https://g.co/kgs/e4cz7D

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#32

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/23/2021 2:15 PM

The problem in California is the mountains block the moist air from the coast from reaching the valley beyond, so they just need to cut some pathways through the mountains to allow the air to pass....a few dozen atomic bombs should do the trick...

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#33
In reply to #32

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/23/2021 7:50 PM

Not so, about the coast range blocking all the rain. True, it blocks some of it, but a majority still passes above and ends up on the much higher Sierra Nevada mountains. The valley in between is green only because of irrigation with ground water and runoff from the Sierra's. The coast range gets very little snow, so its runoff is closely tied to the storms, while the melting snow pack in the Sierra's provides water for most of the summer.

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/23/2021 9:05 PM

The only pass-through I see is around San Francisco and Sacramento lies directly in the path probably the best case scenario...

"Sacramento, California gets 20 inches of rain, on average, per year. The US average is 38 inches of rain per year. Sacramento averages 0 inches of snow per year."

Mobile Alabama on the other hand gets 67 inches av annual rainfall...around the Gulf of Mexico seems to be the wettest areas....

What's different about the Oregon and Wash coast?

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#35
In reply to #34

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/24/2021 12:57 AM

I'm about 40 miles East of Sacramento, at an altitude of 2100 Ft. in the Sierra Foothills. Our normal precipitation is 39+ inches per year. Only a few miles farther East, and several thousand feet higher in altitude, they get double that.

"What's different about the Oregon and Wash coast?" The latitude! It IS also true that the Coast range does not extend much north of CA.

It's going to be interesting... Current forecasts indicate seven inches of rain here during the next 48 hours. It started about an hour ago.

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#38
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/24/2021 9:32 AM

"Gasquet is located in the Smith River National Recreation Area and is reputed to be the rainiest place in California with an average annual rainfall of 95 inches (2,400 mm). "

Located on the Oregon border near the coast...

It's really the southern part of California that seems to have the problem, like from Fresno down...

"Bakersfield, California gets 7 inches of rain, on average, per year."

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#39
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/24/2021 9:49 AM

"California currently has 12 seawater desalination facilities in operation. The Huntington Beach proposal has the backing of Governor Gavin Newsom who said he wants to diversify the state's water supply."Jul 28, 2021 "At present, the two largest and most advanced seawater desalination projects in Southern California are the 200,000-m3/day plants planned to be located in the City of Carlsbad and Huntington Beach, respectively. Both projects are collocated with large coastal power plants using seawater for once through cooling." https://www.waterworld.com/international/desalination/article/16200672/seawater-desalination-gains-momentum-in-california

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#40
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/24/2021 10:04 AM

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#41
In reply to #40

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/24/2021 11:58 AM

That's really old data! The Carlsbad plant has been operating since December 2019.

https://www.carlsbaddesal.com

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#42
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/24/2021 12:11 PM

Not bad... the completion date was slated for 2009....haha

Average water use varies from 75 to 135 gallons per resident per day in nearby cities.Dec 8, 2016

264.172 gallons per cubic meter

200 cubic meters = 52834.4 gallons / 135 = 391

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#44
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/24/2021 1:43 PM

How much water does California get from desalination plants?

..." After a prolonged drought between 2011-2015, California’s investment in desalination solutions to supply fresh water to the state’s dry south grew exponentially.

While most American desalination plants are used to purify less-saline “brackish water” from rivers and bays, large-scale seawater operations have begun to proliferate in California, as well as Florida and Texas.

California alone has 11 municipal seawater desalination plants, with 10 more proposed. Southern California-based Poseidon Water LLC opened America’s largest desalination facility in Carlsbad in 2015, which currently meets about 10 percent of San Diego’s water demand. With the capacity to produce 54 million gallons of water a day, this new desalination plant, as well as another one currently in the works at Huntington Beach, could ensure water security in Southern California.

... China currently has 140 desalination plants, the United States has 400+ municipal plants, with hundreds more micro-plants used by the oil and gas industry. About two-thirds of U.S. desalinated water feeds municipal water systems, while heavy industry consumes only 18 percent. "...

https://www.newsecuritybeat.org/2020/09/tale-coastlines-desalination-china-california/

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#46
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/26/2021 2:06 PM

Perhaps the super saline salt water from reverse osmosis could be used to generate energy using filtered sea water and concentrated brine as "feedstock".

The cost of fresh water will increase in the future,leading to more advanced technologies,or even totally new technologies,like possibly direct electrical output from differential salinity.

It is an ill wind that blows no good.

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#47
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/26/2021 5:05 PM

After reading several articles and reviewing a few websites pro and con for "desal" plants, there are (not surprisingly) very well organized and financed campaigns to stop these desal plants. They make the usual platitudes about water conservation (which has been ongoing since the '80's and earlier, how much better conservation can you get?) and how desal is going to be expensive, harm the environment, GHG emissions and a whole bunch of other straw-men arguments. I'm glad I don't live in California, and there is no way in hell I'd ever move there. These are the same people who believe windmills and solar panels plus batteries is all they need out there for their electricity. May God bless them. They'll need it.

The way to get people to conserve water is getting them to pay for it. If it's expensive, they will use less. So the argument that a desal plant hurts the poor is fallacy unless the desal plant has guaranteed contracts for supply. And these same people will chant that water is a human right. They're bonkers out there. I feel for Autobroker, because he feels he can't escape, so he has to actually live with the insanity out there. We just get to read about it.

I see a day when the taps are running dry and the power is off. California's sacred cows come first, the people last.

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#48
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/27/2021 7:47 AM

All very well conserving water and making folks pay dearly for it, what about leaving it in a dam and watching it evaporate away and being deposited somewhere else by the clouds, for free.

Why should it be expensive when it fell from the sky for free? You seem to be falling into the same category as the scared cows.....Oh my my! Can this be true?

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#49
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/27/2021 8:09 AM

You can always capture all the free rainwater that you can.

No charge.But even rain is not pure water,at the nucleus of every raindrop is a speck of dust that initiated the formation of the droplet.

Nearly all water must now be filtered to be safe to drink,unless you can get it from an ancient underground aquifer,or glacial melt.Some aquifers are now contaminated.

Nearly all surface water is contaminated,and always has been.

Dead animals,animal feces,etc.

Our forefathers drank beer and wine and whiskey because the water made them sick.An old saying is "Never check upstream of where you drink...you may not like what you find."

W.C .Fields had it right"I never drink water because of all the nasty things fish do in it."

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#50
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/27/2021 10:07 AM

It's illegal to capture rain water in some places, or at least restricted, it seems the claim is it diverts from the natural water cycle....haha

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/states-where-it-is-illegal-to-collect-rainwater

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#52
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/27/2021 11:41 AM

As the Scott said,when he was caught pissing on a grave:"My pal asked me to pour a bottle of Scotch on his grave every week and I figured he wouldn't mind if I filtered it through me kidneys first."

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#54
In reply to #50

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/27/2021 11:44 AM

It will still be in the natural water cycle.What a bunch of idjits.

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#51
In reply to #49

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/27/2021 10:37 AM

W.C. Fields also said, "I practice moderation and never drink anything stronger than gin before breakfast."

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#53
In reply to #49

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/27/2021 11:42 AM

Not a problem, the water surrounding the speck of dust will wash the speck of dust down your throat. Or, you could just drink the water and spit out the speck of dust.

All that 'fresh water' that has been on the planet for millions of years, surely cannot be that fresh any more.

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#55
In reply to #53

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/27/2021 11:49 AM

People will adapt to natural contaminates,it is the artificial ones that really hurt,PCB's,etc.

Water in Mexico does not bother the locals,their systems have developed an immunity to the contaminants.

Tourists will suffer Montezuma's Revenge.Same in India with much worse contamination in their rivers.

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#82
In reply to #55

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

11/08/2021 4:28 PM

This is true for much of the world.

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#78
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

11/08/2021 4:04 PM

There are so many "agendas" out here. Crazy laws (no bail for charged offenders), free money to stay at home (why do we have to work?), taxing rainwater (they tried it and luckily it failed), etc.

Windmills are great for people who need tax credits ... oops, I mean they're good for the environment because ... ummm ... they ummm. yes, they generate electricity and save on our carbon footprint. Yes, that's it!

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#76
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

11/08/2021 3:52 PM

I'm wondering how they plan to power the plant? Our state doesn't want any oil drilling projects, we can't use nuclear, because it's too dangerous, we don't want polluting diesel trucks delivering fuel and all of our electricity from solar and wind will be used for our homes and EV cars.

Okay, I'm off my soap box.

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#43
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/24/2021 12:22 PM

Latitude is a major influence! Look in the southern hemisphere: Chile is close to a mirror image of California plus Oregon, Washington, and part of British Columbia, but with greater extremes. Annual rainfall varies from essentially zero in Chile's North to 102 inches per year for Aisén province in the South. There are small local areas that get considerably more.

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#83
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

11/08/2021 4:31 PM

When I lived in Santa Clarita Valley, I noticed that we'd get very little rain (north west part of the valley), while the east would get a lot more. I remember driving home on the 14 (coming from Lancaster) and it would be raining pretty hard. I'd cut across the valley and before I got to the 5, it would stop raining. All night, we wouldn't get a drop! And the SCV isn't that wide (10 miles or so).

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#86
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

11/08/2021 8:16 PM

Look up orographic precipitation. When air is forced upward, it cools, commonly falling below the dewpoint.

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#75
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

11/08/2021 3:29 PM

The far northern part of CA is just like OR. A lot of rain, with some nice green forests. A bit of worthless trivia: Southern OR and Northern CA have had a plan to create their own state, Jefferson.

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#77
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

11/08/2021 3:54 PM
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#45
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/24/2021 4:19 PM

What's different. As stated, Latitude--but also the Humboldt current and the sweep of weather via the Jet Stream. As your map shows, the coastal areas of Washington receive a LOT of rain, with one of the few temperate rain forests on and near the Olympic Peninsula west of Seattle. There, a drought is 4-7 days without rain.

Going East, past the Sierra Nevada and Cascade mountains you find deserts. Weather can follow the same refrain as real estate agents---Location, location, location.

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#74
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

11/08/2021 3:20 PM

Many times, storms in CA move north and south. For instance, I'll hear about a storm in San Francisco and a couple days later, it'll be here in Los Angeles. Could be the Sierra Nevada mountain range (the tallest mountains in the state) control the flow of weather or maybe it's the Pacific Ocean which flows from north to south (that's why our water warms up as we get down to San Diego. I'm not sure which one controls our weather, but I do know that there have been many, many times when I hear about a storm up north and soon after it's down here. At times, storms head north from down south too, but not as often. And there are times when a storm hits up north, but we never get it down south (just travels east).

I live at the base of the San Gabriel mountain range and we get some very interesting weather here. We're a good 15-20 miles from the ocean, but the temperatures don't get as high as the San Fernando Valley. Though the Santa Monica Mountains block the cool Pacific Ocean breezes from getting to SFV. But, I did live in Santa Clarita Valley and even though there was a nice channel (between the mountains) running from the ocean to SCV, the temps can get really high in the summer. Back to where I live now, temps are cooler than many other parts of LA County, we get fewer storms (maybe the mountains protect us) and we have lighter winds. Though when the winds do blow, it's a very, very strong wind.

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#73
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

11/08/2021 3:06 PM

Snowpack up north (CA) is where we get most of our water in the state. We have lakes that are reservoirs (yes, we dammed them up) all the way from Northern CA to Southern CA. And a nice concrete river called the aquaduct to bring the water down. There are some areas where we use a natural aquaduct called a river too. The California State Water Commission controls the flow of water (they open the reservoirs for water use down stream), so you could have a lake at a high level, but weeks later, it drops quickly.

The funny thing is that people in Southern CA think much of our water is from the rainfall (in the south), so people say that the rain is needed to fill the lakes. Sure, some water does fill the lakes via streams and rivers, but most of the water goes down the sewer, down a river (concrete or natural) and into the ocean. The rain and snow up north determine the state's water supply, not a local rain storm down south.

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#36

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/24/2021 5:37 AM

I remember reading,many years ago, that there is more water vapor(invisible) in the upper atmosphere than all of the rivers on Earth combined.

The Earth does not have a water shortage,mankind has a water distribution problem.

If we can learn to control and harvest the available water,in all it's forms,there would be plenty for everyone.

In the meanwhile,we should develop conservation methods to utilize what we have more efficiently,like aquaponics,and hydroponics that reuse most of the water many times,only losing that which leaves when the crop is harvested.

Fresh water is not unlimited,and it will become more and more valuable as time goes on.It may even make harvesting icebergs economically feasible.New technology will be developed to do this,but the $$ is a great magnet for innovation.

Look at the current rapid advancement of space exploration.It is not being done entirely for scientific reasons.Helium3 is more valuable than gold,and the moon's surface is saturated with it,having accumulated over billions of years.Helium 3 is a more efficient fuel for fusion reaction than hydrogen,giving off less neutrons and creating less hazardous waste.I personally believe that H3 is the future of energy.

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/24/2021 9:19 AM

And like history, the one that controls the resource has the power… it’s been happening in California for a very long time.

Enter Stewart and Lynda Resnick. That also have a state water department in their office building that makes decision on who gets the water.

by the way, the Resnicks own the Wonderful company that has one of the largest Almond farms… which needs a lot of water.

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#61
In reply to #37

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/28/2021 7:07 AM

Either way its going to happen and carry on whether you want it or not as someone will do it without anyone knowing, until long after we have consumed the water and become used to it. As you stated, the one who controls the resource.....And it is not WE, as the consumer.

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#62
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/28/2021 8:20 AM

I'll take desalinated over pee water any day, and I can always move to a better neighborhood...so yes WE do have control...

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#64
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/28/2021 1:17 PM

Well I hear Glasgow is flooding today with precipitation, and lots of it. So perhaps they may need to go to Glascow to stay dry and carry on deciding our fate while 90000 people arrive to increase CO2 pollution, to make a statement.

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#84
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Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

11/08/2021 4:55 PM

The farmland in the San Joaquin valley is very fertile and produces the majority of our state's crops. Crops use a lot of water - much more than people use in all of our cities and suburbs. And certain crops like almonds use more water. However, we are demanding more food (larger population) and also changing what we eat. I know there are people who see drinking milk as somehow tied to cruelty to cows, so they demand alternatives like soy milk and almond milk. Others drink almond milk, due to an enzyme deficiency - we do. There are campaigns out there telling us that almond crops use too much water. And others saying that crops use X times the amount of water that cities use. Even with all the information out there, I would bet that most people believe that fixing a dripping faucet or only asking for a glass of water at a restaurant if you want to drink it - these are things that will save us from our water shortage!

This state's water rights are much different than where I grew up (outside of Chicago). Developers in LA, need to buy water rights, then give them to the county. This satisfies the developers requirement to provide proof that their project won't affect a drought. Yes, this is true.

So, as much as I don't like hearing our politicians cry about water rationing and measures to reduce water use at home, the bottom line is that I could leave my garden hose running 24/7 for my entire life and it wouldn't make a difference in our state's water problem. For those of you counting, no I don't do this and I've installed low flush toilets, shower heads and I keep aerators on the faucets of both my house and my rentals - not that it makes a difference, but I think it's the right thing to do.

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#63

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/28/2021 9:50 AM

I spent 2 years working in water and sewer treatment plants and distribution systems. When the waste water goes through its tertiary treatment process the effluent is discharged back into surface waters. To plant operators, the big problem is not this effluent, which is considered safe to drink and meets those standards. Instead it is during times of excessive flow during storms or floods (up to many times normal), when the treatment plant's inflow is greater than its treatment capacity and the holding basins get full. Then, the excess inflow necessarily diverts directly to the effluent stream. This has been heavily diluted by the storm runoff, but state laws generally do/should mandate reporting of each incident to the proper authorities.

The cause of this problem is leakage of water into the sewer pipes (particularly older systems), and places where roof drainage or sump pump drainage is discharged directly into the sewer systems (some cities have no storm drainage connections for properties so this happens, while up-to-date codes would require both).

Fixing the excess flow problem generally requires lining the existing sewer pipes or replacing them entirely (when lining cannot be done or the pipes are large). Various methods exist for lining or bursting and replacing them without trenching. However, all this costs money--taxes, grants, etc. Timelines for doing this often extend up to 30 years in the future.

For some systems, their inlet is from a river not very far downstream from another city's effluent stream. For others, their inlet is from a lake whose waters are also used for recreation, boating, etc. Water treatment plant processes are generally excellent in reducing bacteria, viruses, heavy metal contaminants, and excessive hardness. However, they are poorer (though getting better) at removing the trace amounts of medications and many industrial chemicals. These contaminants are causing increasing problems world-wide.

--JMM

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#66
In reply to #63

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/29/2021 5:39 AM

Storm water from street gutters,etc is not treated.

It goes through a bar screen filter:a coarse filter, like a conveyor that takes out large debris,then it goes straight to the river,no further treatment.

A big problem is when storm water drain pipes get inadvertently cross connected over into the waste water(influent) piping.Then a large proportion of storm water goes into the treatment process which add to the overflow problems during storms.

Smoke tests are done to try to determine the source of these cross connections.Manhole covers are marked with "SANITARY" cast into the cover to identify sewage from storm water.Storm water manholes do not have this on the the covers.

A waste treatment plant has a certain bacteria culture that evolves to decompose the normal influent load at a particular plant.The culture is unique to that plant.

Samples of these are frozen off site in case of a total failure of the system,in order to reestablish the proper colonies of bacteria.Severe storm overload can destroy these colonies,or dilute them to a severe degree,taking weeks or months to totally recover.

All effluent going back into the river or other surface water source is required to have a certain Dissolved Oxygen content,around 6% to 7 %. This is constantly monitored and recorded by a D.O. monitor.

The EPA is also very strict on Nitrate and salt content of the effluent.

Strangely,they have no regulations on the color of the water,so some dyes can remain in the effluent.(Coal tar dye comes to mind).

The regulations may have changed since I last commissioned a waste treatment plant,(over 25+ years ago) so check local EPA authorities.

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#67
In reply to #66

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/29/2021 11:47 AM

What you describe is (or at least was) correct for at least one plant in one location, but there are thousands of waste treatment plants of many different sizes and locations, run by thousands of different people and organizations.

There is no way that they are all going to use the same technologies and procedures as you describe.

For example, my waste treatment plant uses only flotation filtering and bacterial decomposition, and the effluent is injected directly into the ground. We call it a septic system.

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#68
In reply to #67

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/29/2021 11:58 AM

You are right,a septic system,not a Waste Treatment Plant.There are millions of septic tanks all over the USA,as well as the world.Some places still use open-pit privies.Some countries even use railroad tracks.

I was indeed referring to the normal,licensed,regulated waste treatment plants used by most,but not all towns and cities in the USA.

And,as I stated,check with LOCAL authorities for applicable regulations.

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#85
In reply to #63

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

11/08/2021 5:25 PM

You'll like this one.

In the Santa Clarita Valley, we "clean" our already processed waste water via an RO system, to get rid of chlorides.

The state of CA, following a Federal mandate from the early 1970's (I believe it was then) requiring rivers to have a maximum amount of chlorides. The Santa Clara river was given a very low number, since there weren't many residents in Santa Clarita when the Feds came up with their numbers. What did Santa Clarita do?

First, there was a ban on water softeners using salt. If you get caught, there's a big fine, so people opt for exchange tanks like the Culligan system.

Second, after the levels dropped, the state still demanded that we do more. We tested the incoming water and found it to be high in Chloride. Adding to the problem, we have to disinfect the water with chlorine/chloramines - this made things worse. And with normal household use, the maximum chlorine level cannot be met. We asked to have the numbers reset to a reasonable level - based on the incoming water content. Nope, we had to meet the out of date standards. So the plan is to use an RO system to clean a portion of the waste water - just enough to pass the state requirement.

Third, I proposed that we use RO on a portion of the incoming water - that would give a benefit to the users of the water. The waste would be cleaner (less Chloride) and we'd be able to pass the state's required level. Since the water treatment facility is not tied to the water districts, it became a battle of money. The water treatment facility wanted the money, because more money = more power. Why give it to the water districts. So, we filter and clean our waste water, then send some through an RO filter to strip the Chlorides out. As we know, RO gets rid of all the junk, so what do we do with the waste?

Fourth, "they" wanted to dump the waste into a deep hole in the ground - under the golf course. Sludge from the RO filters would get dumped in the hole. That is until the residents in the area found out. They fought it and soon the water treatment plant was forced to change their plan. Last I heard, "they" were going to truck the brine to Carson, CA, where it would be treated. I remember that they initially didn't want to do this, because of the cost. After the residents stopped it, "they" went back to plan B.

FYI, the instigator for this whole thing was the farmers who used the water for crops. They would take the water from the Santa Clara river and pump it to their farmlands. They've been doing this for years, but decided to complain, saying that it was killing their crops. My thinking is that if they've been doing this for years, the damage is done and if it's so bad that their crops are dying, then reducing the Chloride levels won't help - the soil is already contaminated. And as far as we know, the crops were doing just fine, so it was a smokescreen.

Anyway, it cost the city a lot of money and you know who pays in the long run.

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#65

Re: From the Toilet to the Tap

10/28/2021 9:43 PM

"Catalytic wet air oxidation (CWAO) of an aqueous solution of bisphenol A (BPA) was investigated at 160 ℃ and 2.0 MPa of air in a batch reactor. Activity of supported platinum catalysts (2.5 wt%), prepared by wet impregnation, was compared with pure cerium and cerium–titanium oxide catalysts. Supported platinum catalysts showed higher activities in the removal of BPA than pure CeO2, Ce0.8Ti0.2O2 and Ce0.2Ti0.8O2. The oxidation reaction was followed the pseudo-first order rate law and the highest BPA removal, 97% and 95%, was achieved with Pt/CeO2 and Pt/Ce0.8Ti0.2O2 catalysts respectively. The CWAO of BPA aqueous solution was not a surface area specific reaction but the more important factor affecting the activity of studied catalysts was the amount of chemisorbed oxygen of these samples."...

http://www.aimspress.com/article/doi/10.3934/matersci.2019.1.25?utm_source=TrendMD&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=AIMS_Materials_Science_TrendMD_1

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